Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 54

Thread: What is the Origin and History of I1 M253

  1. #26
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered
    Fire Haired's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-06-13
    Posts
    689
    Points
    4,121
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,121, Level: 18
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 129
    Overall activity: 42.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Df27(Spain)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2(Prussia)

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic, Latino(~6%)
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by pyromatic View Post
    It looks like all the major haplogroups in Europe underwent rapid neolithic expansion, not just I1, which I think is consistent with a change in lifestyle or better farming and pastoralism, not necessarily better reproductive fitness or extermination of other groups. These haplogroups just happened to be borne by those who were really good at feeding large families. In this context, once the technological/economic playing field was leveled in Europe, the frequencies of the haplogroups became essentially fixed as population growth becomes approximately equal. It would be interesting to find data suggesting any one haplogroup is expanding at the expense of another in the modern era. When you say age, do you mean time of divergence from I or TMRCA of all I1-bearing men today? Those are two very different numbers.
    You know that almost all of Scandinavia did not begin to farm till the bronze and iron age so that definitely does not explain around 40% I1 in areas of Scandinavia that were not farming in the Neolithic age. You should look at this websites I1 page even they disagree and say in Scandnavia it came with maybe the earliest human settlement, plus it did even originate in Scandinavia it originated in continental Europe probably central probably in the Palaeolithic age. I am kind of sick about arguing the obvious. There is no way I1 spread in Scandinavia during the Neolithic, copper, or bronze age it probably came before N1c1c and with the first human settlement in Scandinavia. That does not mean that it originated in Scandinavia is definitely originated in continental Europe probably central. Just wait till we have the ancient DNA and new info comes in.

  2. #27
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassVeteran5000 Experience Points
    nordicquarreler's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-05-13
    Posts
    351
    Points
    5,638
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,638, Level: 22
    Level completed: 18%, Points required for next Level: 412
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 (M253)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    European mix
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    You know that almost all of Scandinavia did not begin to farm till the bronze and iron age so that definitely does not explain around 40% I1 in areas of Scandinavia that were not farming in the Neolithic age. You should look at this websites I1 page even they disagree and say in Scandnavia it came with maybe the earliest human settlement, plus it did even originate in Scandinavia it originated in continental Europe probably central probably in the Palaeolithic age. I am kind of sick about arguing the obvious. There is no way I1 spread in Scandinavia during the Neolithic, copper, or bronze age it probably came before N1c1c and with the first human settlement in Scandinavia. That does not mean that it originated in Scandinavia is definitely originated in continental Europe probably central. Just wait till we have the ancient DNA and new info comes in.
    I actually agree with your entire statement F.H. I1 probably split off from M170 SOMEWHERE on the continent, but didn't fully thrive until the throngs of R1b began to spread out through Northern Europe/Scandinavia and the gap in technology was equalized (either through warfare capture or more likely trade) I do think the main clan of I1 used Aland and the islands off of Turku in Finland to hide-out during the initial R1b sweeps. To me that is the only thing that would explain the current maps. P.S. Sparkey what do you think of the whole "Island Hideout" theory?

  3. #28
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassVeteran5000 Experience Points
    nordicquarreler's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-05-13
    Posts
    351
    Points
    5,638
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,638, Level: 22
    Level completed: 18%, Points required for next Level: 412
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 (M253)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    European mix
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by pyromatic View Post
    ...once the technological/economic playing field was leveled in Europe, the frequencies of the haplogroups became essentially fixed as population growth becomes approximately equal. It would be interesting to find data suggesting any one haplogroup is expanding at the expense of another in the modern era. When you say age, do you mean time of divergence from I or TMRCA of all I1-bearing men today? Those are two very different numbers.
    Both estimates would be appreciated. I agree that the balance between R1b lines and I1 clades seems to be fixed over their current regions, but I think both groups did carve big chunks out of each other's respective numbers in the past. The first arrivals of R1b probably decimated I1 members, but the much later Anglo-Saxon, Viking, and even Norman invasions cost the various R1b lines a heavy toll. I don't see these ratios changing relative to each other, but both R1b and I1 will certainly lose out to the huge urban influx we now see in England, Germany, Sweden, etc. European pie charts will have to make room for the various clades of J2, E, A, the H's and R1's from India... really the whole alphabet.
    Last edited by nordicquarreler; 08-10-13 at 11:36.

  4. #29
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered
    Fire Haired's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-06-13
    Posts
    689
    Points
    4,121
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,121, Level: 18
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 129
    Overall activity: 42.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Df27(Spain)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2(Prussia)

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic, Latino(~6%)
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    I actually agree with your entire statement F.H. I1 probably split off from M170 SOMEWHERE on the continent, but didn't fully thrive until the throngs of R1b began to spread out through Northern Europe/Scandinavia and the gap in technology was equalized (either through warfare capture or more likely trade) I do think the main clan of I1 used Aland and the islands off of Turku in Finland to hide-out during the initial R1b sweeps. To me that is the only thing that would explain the current maps. P.S. Sparkey what do you think of the whole "Island Hideout" theory?
    I strongly dis agree with the idea that I1 did not become popular in Scandinavia till Germanic R1b S21(I guess other R1b too) invasion starting just 3,500ybp. Maciamo on the I1 page already made the point how 80% of Finnish I1 is under specifc Finnish I1a2 L22 subclades. While Scandinavian I1 subclades are found in the same areas as R1b and I2a2 P214 on the west coast which is all from Swedish inter marriage,. But the Finnish I1a2 L22 subclades do not come from the bronze age and Maciamo said Mesloithic age 6,000-7,000ybp I would say just whenever the first hu8mans made it to Finland. So 80% of Finnish I1 is under their own I1a2 L22 subclades and 5% under Scandinavian L22 subclades I guess then 15% of 28% of their y DNA is under other I1a Df29 subclades most typical for continental Europe. All I know is that the majority of I1 in Sweden and Norway is under I1a2 L22 once I heard I think 58%. So that would leave about 42% of 30-37% of their y DNA to non L22 I1 subclades. I guarantee it has similar distribution to R1a Z284 or to R1b S21, I2a2 P214, and red hair. R1a Z283 would have come to Sweden and Norway through central Europe about 4,500-5,000ybp which was apart of proto Balto Slavic speaking Corded ware culture. R1b S21, I2a2 P214, and red hair(or just over 1%) all came to Sweden and Norway with proto Germanic languages at the earliest 3,500-4,000ybp through central Europe. Or other contact people in Norway and Sweden have had with central Europeans throughout history could effect how much non I1a2 L22 I1 they have. But since Finland has had such little contact with central Europe it makes sense why Norway and Sweden would have more non L22 I1.

  5. #30
    Tabaccus Maximus Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Tabaccus Maximus's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-12
    Posts
    169
    Points
    2,901
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,901, Level: 15
    Level completed: 51%, Points required for next Level: 149
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - SRY 2627
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1a

    Ethnic group
    Galo-Germanic Atlantic Fringe
    Country: USA - Texas



    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    In fact, I have much more difficulty finding any Haplogroup I subclades that seem to share an early spread into Europe with early proto-R1b-L11 than I do those that don't. Even the I2 common in the Balkans (I2a-Din) doesn't seem to have spread from there. So my thought is that R1b passed through the Balkans long after Haplogroup I did, and that the Halpogroup I expansions that connected with R1b expansions happened after R1b had already drifted into the local Haplogroup I-carrying areas.
    Let me suggest that R1b-M269 entered Europe from multiple locations and times, so any correlation between I-M170 would probably be with clades of R-U106/S21 and it may not be a clean correlation given the sparse settlements of the North Sea and Scandinavia.
    I 'would not' expect to see any correlation at the level of R-L21.
    Even though its very likely M170 was seeping into Europe as a minority haplotype with LBK or FBK, I would guess that the majority of LBK and FBK paternal lines in Western Europe were culled starting in the Chalcolithic/Early Bronze Age.
    I find the Urnfield an interesting topic for "I" followers in that it begins in what could only be SE Europe and ends with Jastorf, among others. Of course the majority of the human population in the Urnfield horizon were descended from Tumulus people, but there seems to be an introduction of a new social order and cultural traits associated with the SE.
    Emphasis on a type of cremation burial, axes, so forth. The evidence of "hill forts" I think is indicitive of an embattled social caste or at least the presence of a non-native aristocracy.
    If in fact Urnfield involved a warrior caste of SE Indo-Europeans, there would certainly be an amalgam of men that had high diversity of Haplotype I and probably low diversity of R1b. So it would seem at least a substantial amount of I's distribution in Europe could be attributed to Urnfield and its high frequency and variability in the North is deceptive because of density and from where it spread.
    The Urnfield began its expansion around the time of the Brnoze Age collapse, which was especially violent in the Aegean and Balkans. Increasing violence of Scythians pushed Cimmerians, Thracians and Phrygians from their native abodes into places like the Balkans which may have either pushed Balkan refugees into Europe or maybe the entire episode turned into one big land grab with every nation for himself, Balkanites included.

    It's in this environment that appears to be the ideal primordial ooze that a language like pre-proto-Germanic to have evolved.
    Perhaps the so-called "Thraco-Cimmerian Hypothesis" could be better explained by a maintenance of Cultural contact with the Balkans during the Urnfield phase ultimately ending with the Hallstat phase.

    Looking at maps of the following I-M170 and comparing with R1b-S21 and later migration period, I do see some correlation, of course it could be in part due to the geographic overlap of FBK.
    I-M438/I-M253
    (M253 being young enough that it was essentially born in the North shortly after its Urnfield expansion)
    I-M436 (Urnfield derived, later Germanic spread)
    I-M423 (may have been too young during Urnfield expansion from Balkans and the reason why its frequency is low in Europe)
    I-M26 (Urnfield derived, later Germanic spread)

  6. #31
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience PointsRecommendation First Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,329
    Points
    110,111
    Level
    100
    Points: 110,111, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Quote Originally Posted by pyromatic View Post
    It looks like all the major haplogroups in Europe underwent rapid neolithic expansion, not just I1, which I think is consistent with a change in lifestyle or better farming and pastoralism, not necessarily better reproductive fitness or extermination of other groups. These haplogroups just happened to be borne by those who were really good at feeding large families. In this context, once the technological/economic playing field was leveled in Europe, the frequencies of the haplogroups became essentially fixed as population growth becomes approximately equal. It would be interesting to find data suggesting any one haplogroup is expanding at the expense of another in the modern era.
    Nicely put, I like this logic. I think we will find few exceptions, but not many. Main factor will always be food production/survival of offspring and economy in general.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

  7. #32
    Great Adventurer Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Arm of Law
    sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,270
    Points
    68,877
    Level
    81
    Points: 68,877, Level: 81
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 873
    Overall activity: 16.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by Tabaccus Maximus View Post
    Looking at maps of the following I-M170 and comparing with R1b-S21 and later migration period, I do see some correlation, of course it could be in part due to the geographic overlap of FBK.
    I-M438/I-M253
    (M253 being young enough that it was essentially born in the North shortly after its Urnfield expansion)
    I-M436 (Urnfield derived, later Germanic spread)
    I-M423 (may have been too young during Urnfield expansion from Balkans and the reason why its frequency is low in Europe)
    I-M26 (Urnfield derived, later Germanic spread)
    I'm not following your subclade analysis, sorry.
    "I-M438/I-M253" is all known Haplogroup I.
    "I-M436" is unlikely to be Urnfield derived (way too old) although it does seem to be a good candidate to have had a majority of its carriers within the reach of Urnfield at one time.
    "I-M423" is definitely older than Urnfield as well, although its most major subclade (I2a-Din) is young. Its frequency is not low in Europe, it is ultrafrequent in the Balkans.
    "I-M26" is again too old to be Urnfield derived, and it has a pretty clear west-to-east diversity trend within its primary subclade.

    Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you mean by "derived."

  8. #33
    Great Adventurer Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Arm of Law
    sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,270
    Points
    68,877
    Level
    81
    Points: 68,877, Level: 81
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 873
    Overall activity: 16.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    I do think the main clan of I1 used Aland and the islands off of Turku in Finland to hide-out during the initial R1b sweeps. To me that is the only thing that would explain the current maps. P.S. Sparkey what do you think of the whole "Island Hideout" theory?
    I think that if the "Island Hideout" theory was true, we would see higher diversity of Haplogroup I lineages on the islands, and lower correlation between Haplogroup I subclades and subclades of other haplogroups. As is, it seems like in more cases, we're looking at either founder effects (e.g. Sardinian I2-M26 or Finnish I1-L22) or expansions alongside, rather than away from, other haplogroups (e.g. British I1-Z58). Or possibly even both effects at the same time (perhaps I2a-Din in the Balkans?).

  9. #34
    Tabaccus Maximus Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Tabaccus Maximus's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-12
    Posts
    169
    Points
    2,901
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,901, Level: 15
    Level completed: 51%, Points required for next Level: 149
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - SRY 2627
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1a

    Ethnic group
    Galo-Germanic Atlantic Fringe
    Country: USA - Texas



    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I'm not following your subclade analysis, sorry.
    "I-M438/I-M253" is all known Haplogroup I.
    "I-M436" is unlikely to be Urnfield derived (way too old) although it does seem to be a good candidate to have had a majority of its carriers within the reach of Urnfield at one time.
    "I-M423" is definitely older than Urnfield as well, although its most major subclade (I2a-Din) is young. Its frequency is not low in Europe, it is ultrafrequent in the Balkans.
    "I-M26" is again too old to be Urnfield derived, and it has a pretty clear west-to-east diversity trend within its primary subclade.

    Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you mean by "derived."

    I mean derived, as in SE Europe for the most part (M-170). I am also fine with the ages of the various clades, however deep, so I'm not implying they mutated the eve of a calvary charge, rather they must have matured for many thousands of years in the Near East/Balkans.
    I-M253 is way too young to know what culture in which it originated. Linear Pottery Culture, Funnel Beaker and Urnfield all probably brought M-170 from SE Europe into Central Europe and any one of them could have been father to this particular line, and of course this mutation happened with one man, so it must have taken quite awhile to reach its present locality.


    This is the challenge with M170's European distribution analysis.
    1) The donor population (SE Europe) was probably large and the population of temperate Europe was mostly small or sparse during the Neolithic and Early Bronze Age.
    2) The donor's origin (I-M170) was probably realitively close to its Near Eastern founding, therefore the donor was at its maximum diversity. (Much unlike R1b)
    This could create a picture of what would falsely look like bottlenecking of M-170's European descendants where you have a scatter shot distribution pattern.
    3) The population it partly spawned in temperate Europe exploded in the Iron Age and early Medieval period.
    4) It's descendants were part of a population of highly successful migrationists

    Of course I relish the fact that I-M253's age has been recalculated to the Bronze Age, because of course it was marker for paleolithic Europe just yesterday being found in a supposed relict population.

  10. #35
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassVeteran5000 Experience Points
    nordicquarreler's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-05-13
    Posts
    351
    Points
    5,638
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,638, Level: 22
    Level completed: 18%, Points required for next Level: 412
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 (M253)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    European mix
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Tabaccus Maximus View Post
    ...Of course I relish the fact that I-M253's age has been recalculated to the Bronze Age, because of course it was marker for paleolithic Europe just yesterday being found in a supposed relict population.
    Uh oh. You're not one of those R1b supporters that think your clade was the founding paternal line of Europe are you?

    And by the way, what paternal haplogroup (or maternal for that matter) ISN'T descended from highly successful migrationists?

  11. #36
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered
    Fire Haired's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-06-13
    Posts
    689
    Points
    4,121
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,121, Level: 18
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 129
    Overall activity: 42.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Df27(Spain)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2(Prussia)

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic, Latino(~6%)
    Country: USA - California



    TE do you seriously think I M170 came to Europe with farming when its age estimates are 25,000-30,000 years old. I1 in Scandinavia so I1a2 L22 deifntley did not come with farming since there in the Neolithic age almost all Scandinavians were hunter gathers. Austomally Finnish and Soumi are closest to Mesolithic and Neolithic European hunter gathers and very far from Neolithic and copper age farmers.

  12. #37
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered
    Fire Haired's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-06-13
    Posts
    689
    Points
    4,121
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,121, Level: 18
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 129
    Overall activity: 42.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Df27(Spain)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2(Prussia)

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic, Latino(~6%)
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    Uh oh. You're not one of those R1b supporters that think your clade was the founding paternal line of Europe are you?

    And by the way, what paternal haplogroup (or maternal for that matter) ISN'T descended from highly successful migrationists?
    TE said nothing about R1b being the original paternal lineage of Europe the only person who still thinks that might be Spencer Wells. I don't know that much about world history but it seems like in Native Americans their Y DNA percentages are just chance has nothing to do with conquering or because their branch was more successful than another. But it seems like that is true in Neolithic Europe for G2a, E1b1b(mainly V13), J2b maybe other J2 subclades, and possibly some J1. I think the farmers may have spread by domination and conquering because they had a better way to survive than the hunter gathers. It is crazy how austomal DNA of Neolithic farmer in Southern Sweden and copper age farmer in alps Italy are nearly identical and are closest to modern Sardinia(Sardinia last of the European farmer race). There is a huge obvious difference between farming European and hunter gather European mtDNA and austomal DNA(Reconstructing the Human Past using Ancient and Modern Genomes). And I think most Indo European languages were spread by conquest Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11, Balto Slavic(Corded ware culture) R1a1a1b1 Z283, Indo Iranian and Tocherian? R1a1a1b2 Z93, maybe more. It seems like to me humans didn't have the organization and technology like Metal weapons to do mass conquering before the bronze age. The link I showed above about the difference between European farmers and hunter gathers. I wish they made the point that it is not like okay modern northern Europeans come from hunter gathers and southern Europeans come from farmers. Its that northern Europeans kept more hunter gather blood probably because their farther north. Also in austomal DNA tests i have no idea how they get the results and all that stuff but i do know the tests with uniquely Europeans groups they are always most popular in the same areas of Europe and so far are dominate in Mesolithic and Neolithic European hunter gathers usually their called North Euro or Atlantic Baltic. They probably used to be 100% in Europe before the Neolithic age and I think results from St. Forvar(mtDNA U4b1) 8,673 year old hunter gather in Sweden might be evidence of that.

  13. #38
    Tabaccus Maximus Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Tabaccus Maximus's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-12
    Posts
    169
    Points
    2,901
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,901, Level: 15
    Level completed: 51%, Points required for next Level: 149
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - SRY 2627
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1a

    Ethnic group
    Galo-Germanic Atlantic Fringe
    Country: USA - Texas



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    Uh oh. You're not one of those R1b supporters that think your clade was the founding paternal line of Europe are you?

    And by the way, what paternal haplogroup (or maternal for that matter) ISN'T descended from highly successful migrationists?
    Ok, you got me, but I mean in relative terms. And quite honestly to say that R1a and R1b haven't had a numerically explosive and very wide migratory territory in relative terms I think would be inaccurate.

    Basically my point was that many clades I-M170 dispersed in Europe were in fact spread with Indo-Europeans from SE Europe and the Balkans. I think clades of M170 may have begun to spread in the early Linear Band Ware culture and was probably highly represented in the Balkan "Vinca" culture, but I sincerely doubt that it was present in Europe before the Neolithic.

  14. #39
    Emperor Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    10-04-13
    Posts
    2,121
    Points
    4,787
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,787, Level: 20
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 263
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Italy



    No; the indo-Europeans belonged solely to the R branch of the y-DNA tree: certainly R1's a and b and possibly R2 as well. The first European males seem to have belonged to hg I whereas the second arrivals to Europe where probably R of the R1b variety.

  15. #40
    Great Adventurer Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Arm of Law
    sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,270
    Points
    68,877
    Level
    81
    Points: 68,877, Level: 81
    Level completed: 49%, Points required for next Level: 873
    Overall activity: 16.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by Tabaccus Maximus View Post
    Basically my point was that many clades I-M170 dispersed in Europe were in fact spread with Indo-Europeans from SE Europe and the Balkans. I think clades of M170 may have begun to spread in the early Linear Band Ware culture and was probably highly represented in the Balkan "Vinca" culture, but I sincerely doubt that it was present in Europe before the Neolithic.
    I don't see this at all upon close inspection of the subclades. I'm guessing you mean something like:

    Neolithic farmers from the East
    M26

    Indo-Europeans
    M436
    M423

    ??? What are all these doing having their highest diversity in Europe if they were late arrivals???
    L1294 ("F")
    L880 ("NF")
    L1286 ("Western" & "Alpine")
    L596
    L416
    I1

    It doesn't make sense to me to posit I as post-Neolithic based on the number of little ancient subclades in Europe, but not outside of Europe. R1b, for example, doesn't see that pattern at all, as it has no real ancient subclade diversity and few outliers in Europe, but lots of that in West Asia. I, on the other hand, has a great deal of subclade diversity and outliers in Europe, but little to speak of in West Asia. And that's not to mention that the M26 diversity pattern is West-to-East and has been shown to have existed in the Neolithic, indicating that it was in the West at the beginning of the Neolithic.

  16. #41
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    24-12-12
    Posts
    28
    Points
    4,317
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,317, Level: 19
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 333
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    You know that almost all of Scandinavia did not begin to farm till the bronze and iron age so that definitely does not explain around 40% I1 in areas of Scandinavia that were not farming in the Neolithic age. You should look at this websites I1 page even they disagree and say in Scandnavia it came with maybe the earliest human settlement, plus it did even originate in Scandinavia it originated in continental Europe probably central probably in the Palaeolithic age. I am kind of sick about arguing the obvious. There is no way I1 spread in Scandinavia during the Neolithic, copper, or bronze age it probably came before N1c1c and with the first human settlement in Scandinavia. That does not mean that it originated in Scandinavia is definitely originated in continental Europe probably central. Just wait till we have the ancient DNA and new info comes in.
    That farming arrived in Scandinavia from continental Europe at the same time I1 begins to expand from continental Europe, I think, is no coincidence. Scandinavia was likely sparsely populated then, which would for the relatively high frequency of I1 there today. You're sick about arguing the obvious? You must possess the thickest skull that could possibly cluster with AMH such that insulting you wouldn't even register.

  17. #42
    Junior Member Achievements:
    3 months registered250 Experience Points

    Join Date
    16-09-17
    Posts
    5
    Points
    304
    Level
    3
    Points: 304, Level: 3
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 46
    Overall activity: 5.0%


    Country: USA - New Jersey



    The "founders" basically lived in an area roughly from Gotland in the German Sea to the area now known as the Crimea. The boats were first made with twisted hemp smeared with pitch, and they lived by carrying Mediterranean goods to Europe and Eurasian goods, including slaves, to the Mediterranean. At the time I chose for my novelistic approach to the question, it was the transition to Ottoman rule from Roman rule that characterized the area, but I suspect that archaeologists will someday find evidence that the Dniepper was used for long-distance transport 10,000 years ago, when the first I haploclads were expanding from their origin spots in the Caucasus, and things like furs, ivory and gems found their origin in trading posts manned by I clad people and transported in boats crewed by the same.

  18. #43
    Junior Member Achievements:
    3 months registered250 Experience Points

    Join Date
    16-09-17
    Posts
    5
    Points
    304
    Level
    3
    Points: 304, Level: 3
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 46
    Overall activity: 5.0%


    Country: USA - New Jersey



    I know this presumes a lot, but when you see the extreme fineness of "Chalcolithic" goods as exemplified by Native American workmanship, assuming this "newer" clad was roughly of that group, then it starts to make sense. Just because wealth is extracted from animals, for the most part, and doesn't involve the manufacture of iron implements, doesn't exclude high skills where boat making and other such tasks are concerned.

  19. #44
    Junior Member Achievements:
    3 months registered250 Experience Points

    Join Date
    16-09-17
    Posts
    5
    Points
    304
    Level
    3
    Points: 304, Level: 3
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 46
    Overall activity: 5.0%


    Country: USA - New Jersey



    I have an interesting combination that may be of interest to you and this group...

    Quote Originally Posted by pyromatic View Post
    It looks like all the major haplogroups in Europe underwent rapid neolithic expansion, not just I1, which I think is consistent with a change in lifestyle or better farming and pastoralism, not necessarily better reproductive fitness or extermination of other groups. These haplogroups just happened to be borne by those who were really good at feeding large families. In this context, once the technological/economic playing field was leveled in Europe, the frequencies of the haplogroups became essentially fixed as population growth becomes approximately equal. It would be interesting to find data suggesting any one haplogroup is expanding at the expense of another in the modern era. When you say age, do you mean time of divergence from I or TMRCA of all I1-bearing men today? Those are two very different numbers.
    I have an interesting combination that may be of interest to you and this group; that is, I-M253 and X2b. Get the picture? The paternal line appears to be protogroup for those that later went up the Dnieper and down the Duna to colonize the lands around the German Sea, and the maternal haplogroup appears to the one that split in two at the same geographical location that gave rise to I-M253, and was carried by persons (Vikings?) all the way to the Midwest of the United States. Like they say, "Can't make this stuff up."

  20. #45
    Junior Member Achievements:
    500 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    11-01-18
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    2
    Points
    940
    Level
    7
    Points: 940, Level: 7
    Level completed: 95%, Points required for next Level: 10
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    European
    Country: USA - Texas



    My ancestors were Norman English and came to Virginia in the mid 1600's. Then south to Georgia and Alabama. There are many English people in the south and southern Appalachia. Maybe that I1 came south and along the eastern seaboard and the Appalachians with these Norman English, as mine did.

  21. #46
    Junior Member Achievements:
    500 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    11-01-18
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    2
    Points
    940
    Level
    7
    Points: 940, Level: 7
    Level completed: 95%, Points required for next Level: 10
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    European
    Country: USA - Texas



    The Normans had a lot of I1 did they not? Many Norman derived English settled Virginia and the eastern seaboard, most moved south and into the Appalachians. Could that be who you are pertaining too?

  22. #47
    Viscount Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsThree Friends1 year registered
    Azzurro's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-16
    Posts
    380
    Points
    2,547
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,547, Level: 14
    Level completed: 33%, Points required for next Level: 203
    Overall activity: 1.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-Y15222
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a2b5

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Canada



    It doesn’t seem like its been posted but there is some major news for I1 and might be very relevant to the history of I1. The oldest I1 appears in Mesolithic Scandinavia according to the Y snp calls done by Genetiker in Stora Karlösa, Sweden; dating from 7073-6810 BC in the Mesolithic Scandinavian paper that was released earlier this month.

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018...avia/#comments

  23. #48
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    08-12-16
    Posts
    272
    Points
    3,673
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,673, Level: 17
    Level completed: 56%, Points required for next Level: 177
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-FGC24357
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K2a6

    Ethnic group
    Hainaut Belgium and Quebec Canada
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    It doesn’t seem like its been posted but there is some major news for I1 and might be very relevant to the history of I1. The oldest I1 appears in Mesolithic Scandinavia according to the Y snp calls done by Genetiker in Stora Karlösa, Sweden; dating from 7073-6810 BC in the Mesolithic Scandinavian paper that was released earlier this month.

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018...avia/#comments
    I’m not sure if I’m reading it right but I1-DF29-Z58-Z59-CTS8747-Z60-Z140-Z141-Y6231-Y7277-Y7278-Y7398 is in bold. Does this mean that this sample dated 7073-6810 BC was positive for all of those I1a snps? Wouldn’t that mean that the TMRCAs of the current I1 phylogenetic tree are way off?

  24. #49
    Viscount Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsThree Friends1 year registered
    Azzurro's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-16
    Posts
    380
    Points
    2,547
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,547, Level: 14
    Level completed: 33%, Points required for next Level: 203
    Overall activity: 1.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-Y15222
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a2b5

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by mwauthy View Post
    I’m not sure if I’m reading it right but I1-DF29-Z58-Z59-CTS8747-Z60-Z140-Z141-Y6231-Y7277-Y7278-Y7398 is in bold. Does this mean that this sample dated 7073-6810 BC was positive for all of those I1a snps? Wouldn’t that mean that the TMRCAs of the current I1 phylogenetic tree are way off?
    No it doesn’t mean that the sample is positive for all those snps bolded, its too old for it to be any of current TMRCA of I1 subclades, he’s just simply I1-M253, which is still relevant because the ancestor of all I1 branches has been found.

  25. #50
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    08-12-16
    Posts
    272
    Points
    3,673
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,673, Level: 17
    Level completed: 56%, Points required for next Level: 177
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-FGC24357
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K2a6

    Ethnic group
    Hainaut Belgium and Quebec Canada
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    No it doesn’t mean that the sample is positive for all those snps bolded, its too old for it to be any of current TMRCA of I1 subclades, he’s just simply I1-M253, which is still relevant because the ancestor of all I1 branches has been found.
    Why was that one line of snps in bold while the other ones weren’t? Also, was this sample positive for all 302 snps associated with I1?

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •