New distribution map of Y-haplogroup E-M81

[Angela]

I don't know if E-M81 is what My Heritage calls North African DNA, but in accord with that company, 21% of Portuguese have North African DNA vs. 5% of Spaniards, 4% Italians and 1% Greeks.

Uniparental markers are only part of the story, and this uniparental marker is only one of the ones which might have been brought by the "Moors", even if the majority of them were North Africans. There are other y lines in North Africa. Plus, a certain percentage of the invaders came from the Near East, so there is that to consider.

In addition, what the testing companies are using to determine "North African" ancestry is autosomal dna, not uniparental markers, which account for a very small amount of ancestry.

Also, in the future, it would be helpful if you could provide links for your facts. For example, the only place in Italy with appreciable E-M81 is Sicily, with perhaps a bit in other places in the south. It is exceedingly rare in most of Italy.

[Angela]

Those are the links:

Portugal https://www.myheritage.com/ethniciti...y-distribution
Spain https://www.myheritage.com/ethniciti...y-distribution
Italy https://www.myheritage.com/ethniciti...y-distribution

As I've tried to explain to you, that 2.3% (not 4%, as well) supposed "North African" in Italians does not refer to uniparental markers, much less only to E-M81. It refers to autosomal dna.

Moreover, MyHeritage is a particularly bad company for autosomal analysis of "ethnic" percentages, imo.

I realize this all seems very complicated in the beginning. If you spend some time using the search engine I'm sure things will start to get clearer.

[Angela]

North African for Italians is 4.5% in accord that link, Angela. Thanks for the explanation.

I stand corrected. 4.5 for Italy, and 5.9 for Spain.

Regardless, this seems to be, from a closer reading of the links, autosomal ancestry, not yDna, so your links are mislabeled, and do not really have anything to do with this thread.

Furthermore, they would seem to be in conflict with both academic papers and autosomal analyses such as those which can be accessed through gedmatch.

As for E-M81: the map is the first post of this thread.

[Elaishousse]

There is a sample in Denmark

[Parafarne]

Could the high percentage (75%) of E-m81 in n.africa have been much less mirroring L, M, U6 (29%)mtdna in the region in prehistory and eurasian ydna G, J2, R-v88, J1 have been in much higher percentages mirroring eurasian mtdna numbers, before deminishing like I2, G hgs in europe after IE settlements? because of wars, male-only immigration to europe by these eurasian ydna hgs as soldiers of phoenicians?

[Megalophias]

E-M81 has clearly had a huge and quite recent expansion which must have diluted everything else around at the time. But it isn't easy to tell what was around before E-M81 and what has arrived later. Drift and sex-biased gene flow could have altered the original proportions of African and Eurasian mtDNA vs Y DNA.

Most of the J1 in North Africa falls into young Arabian branches, so probably came after E-M81. R1b-V88 is likely older. E-M2 is hard to tell, I'd guess some is early and some is late.

[Johane Derite]

This paper from 2018, believed that E and mtdna L3 was eurasian and back migrated into africa:

RESULTS:



The coalescence ages of all Eurasian (M,N) and African (L3 ) lineages, both around 71 kya, are not significantly different. The oldest M and N Eurasian clades are found in southeastern Asia instead near of Africa as expected by the southern route hypothesis. The split of the Y-chromosome composite DE haplogroup is very similar to the age of mtDNA L3. An Eurasian origin and back migration to Africa has been proposed for the African Y-chromosome haplogroup E. Inside Africa, frequency distributions of maternal L3 and paternal E lineages are positively correlated. This correlation is not fully explained by geographic or ethnic affinities. This correlation rather seems to be the result of a joint and global replacement of the old autochthonous male and female African lineages by the new Eurasian incomers.


CONCLUSIONS:



These results are congruent with a model proposing an out-of-Africa migration into Asia, following a northern route, of early anatomically modern humans carrying pre-L3 mtDNA lineages around 125 kya, subsequent diversification of pre-L3 into the basal lineages of L3, a return to Africa of Eurasian fully modern humans around 70 kya carrying the basal L3 lineages and the subsequent diversification of Eurasian-remaining L3 lineages into the M and N lineages in the outside-of-Africa context, and a second Eurasian global expansion by 60 kya, most probably, out of southeast Asia. Climatic conditions and the presence of Neanderthals and other hominins might have played significant roles in these human movements. Moreover, recent studies based on ancient DNA and whole-genome sequencing are also compatible with this hypothesis.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29921229?fbclid=IwAR3gTQRtEkYRMF3y_zUlu3xTOe40D5VL SAebBfRn-4e_sKdHsVJDqi825WA

[kingjohn]

In the e3b project there are 2 cases of e-m81 in Sweden and I checked there surnames are swedish so it is not recent northwest african immigrants to sweden

any scenario people who brought it to sweden ? Romans in Sweden?

[Elaishousse]

hi beavrrit
Yes the remains Guanche contain haplogroup EM81 at an important rate

[Elaishousse]

hi kingjohn

They may be Roman soldiers or slaves who ended up in Sweden
Now there was a commercial relationship between the Romans and Scandinavia

[kingjohn]

e-m81 is more than 5% in ille de france and auvergane
source : https://www.fsigeneticssup.com/artic...234-0/fulltext
and this research was done on people with french surnames
i think the spread of e-m81 is more complicated it exist in france in areas that were not under muslim rule

i add the table of research because we cant see it in the link i added :

Region	Nb	BD	E*	E-M35*	E-M78	E-M81	E-M34	G	I	J1	J2	K	N1c	P*	R1a	R1b1	T
1 Alsace	80	0	0	0	6.25	0	3.75	2.50	8.75	1.25	8.75	1.25	0	0	3.75	58.75	5
2 Auvergne	89	0	2.25	0	3.37	5.62	1.12	8.99	4.49	3.37	7.87	1.12	0	0	5.62	52.80	3.37
3 Brittany	115	0	0	0	0	0	0	1.74	13.04	0.87	2.61	0	0	0	0.87	80.88	0
4 Île-de-France	91	0	10.99	0	4.40	5.49	1.10	4.40	7.69	1.10	5.49	0	1.10	0	2.20	56.05	0
5 Midi-Pyrénées	67	0	1.49	1.49	2.99	1.49	1.49	4.48	10.45	4.48	7.46	0	0	0	2.99	59.69	1.49
6 Nord-Pas-de-Calais	68	0	1.47	1.47	5.88	4.41	0	7.35	8.82	0	5.88	0	0	0	2.94	61.76	0
7 Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur	45	2.22	0	2.22	8.89	2.22	0	6.67	8.89	0	6.67	0	0	4.44	0	55.55	2.22
Mainland France	555	0.32	2.31	0.74	4.54	2.75	1.07	5.16	8.88	1.58	6.39	0.34	0.16	0.63	2.62	60.78	1.73

[Elaishousse]

Hi kingjohn
There are remains in the south of France on the Haplougroup EM81 and the age of the remains is 1300 years and according to the method buried was islamic
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0148583

[Angela]

An E-M81 ended up in Parma too. Soldiers went everywhere.

[berun]

methodology in genetic studies are in many cases pitable, they simply get hospital samples with French surnames... how have done a discrimination about which surname is French, Alsatian Germanic surnames like Weis or Loeb were included or excluded?

moreover they did not take care about ancestry of samples (like being fourth generation in the same department), and that in France is very important as there are 30% of internal migration, one in three coming from other regions, two in three from another departement inside the region.

Plus, some some 30% have origins outside of core France:

2008, according to The National Institute of Statistics (INSEE, for its acronym in French), there were 12 million immigrants and their direct descendants (2nd generation) making up about 20% of the population.[26] with an immigrant defined as a foreign born person without French citizenship at birth. Without considering citizenship at birth, people not born in metropolitan France and their direct descendants made up 30% of the population aged 18–50 in metropolitan France in 2008

so this study has so much value as to know Y DNA distribution as counting doves in Paris as to know how many car crashes will be this year in Toulouse.

[kingjohn]

yes but e-m81 also exist among some French Canadians families /surnames do we agree that the presence of e-m81 among those familes are not recent immigrant no chance and you know it.
about this research
the more than 5% of e- m81 in auvergane might be not recent there is a logical conection to those 650Ad buried Muslims in nimes which is not far georgraphicaly you might have a point about the e-m81% in Paris and lille in the north though.

[Angela]

I don't know which study found the high percentage in the Paris and Lille areas (or studies), but it's absolutely false and perhaps deliberately misleading to state that the authors of population genetics papers just get samples from hospitals. I know of only one study which did that, and, unfortunately, it was an Italian one.

This is the kind of thing said by people who don't like what studies show.

It's easy to check. Every study tells you how they procured their samples, and the criterion for choice. The usual standard is four grandparents born in the same area. In y dna studies they're looking at the males. Just find the study or studies and check. It's easy enough.

@King John,
That's absolutely correct.

[Angela]

I don't know which study found the high percentage in the Paris and Lille areas (or studies), but it's absolutely false and perhaps deliberately misleading to state that the authors of population genetics papers just get samples from hospitals. I know of only one study which did that, and, unfortunately, it was an Italian one.

This is the kind of thing said by people who don't like what studies show.

It's easy to check. Every study tells you how they procured their samples, and the criterion for choice. The usual standard is four grandparents born in the same area. In y dna studies they're looking at the males. Just find the study or studies and check. It's easy enough.

@King John,
That's absolutely correct.

As to French Canadian people, I remember from my days on 23andme that quite a few French Canadians would get a tiny sliver of North African and didn't have any clue why. I know most of the migration to Canada was from the Northwest and Center, but if any came from the south, there is an explanation.

General Information:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_invasion_of_Gaul

Saracen kingdom of Provence: Fraxinetum
https://www.history.ubc.ca/sites/def...Fraxinetum.pdf

If it makes Berun feel any better, they raided in all directions, including into the mountain passes of Italy. :)

[berun]

I don't think that true ancestral E-M87 in France could be assigned to Muslim raids, instead, to "internal" migrations in the Roman Empire and above all to the retreat of imperials in the fall of the empire.

[berun]

Sample collection was performed drawing blood of unrelated male individuals with French surname after informed consent

let me know if French laws allow blood extraction in cafeterias or Disneyland...

[Angela]

I don't think that true ancestral E-M87 in France could be assigned to Muslim raids, instead, to "internal" migrations in the Roman Empire and above all to the retreat of imperials in the fall of the empire.

Special pleading. How the hell would you know that????

How typical. Anything rather than ancestry from the Moors. Pathetic.

Like it or not, the Kingdom of Fraxinetum existed, founded by Saracens, for a good long time.

You make one more smarmy comment unsupported by fact, and I'm going to delete it.

GO TO THE STUDIES IN QUESTION, and show that the procedure for collection was faulty, or SHUT UP.

[kingjohn]

so yfull put some ancient guanches sample
in there tree.....

GUN011 which is dated to 695–888 C.E
anyway cool
https://yfull.com/tree/E-PF2546*/


p.s
i wish they have done it for other ancient e1b1b1 samples also....

[kingjohn]

e-m81 is more than 5% in ille de france and auvergane
source : https://www.fsigeneticssup.com/artic...234-0/fulltext
and this research was done on people with french surnames
i think the spread of e-m81 is more complicated it exist in france in areas that were not under muslim rule

i add the table of research because we cant see it in the link i added :

Region	Nb	BD	E*	E-M35*	E-M78	E-M81	E-M34	G	I	J1	J2	K	N1c	P*	R1a	R1b1	T
1 Alsace	80	0	0	0	6.25	0	3.75	2.50	8.75	1.25	8.75	1.25	0	0	3.75	58.75	5
2 Auvergne	89	0	2.25	0	3.37	5.62	1.12	8.99	4.49	3.37	7.87	1.12	0	0	5.62	52.80	3.37
3 Brittany	115	0	0	0	0	0	0	1.74	13.04	0.87	2.61	0	0	0	0.87	80.88	0
4 Île-de-France	91	0	10.99	0	4.40	5.49	1.10	4.40	7.69	1.10	5.49	0	1.10	0	2.20	56.05	0
5 Midi-Pyrénées	67	0	1.49	1.49	2.99	1.49	1.49	4.48	10.45	4.48	7.46	0	0	0	2.99	59.69	1.49
6 Nord-Pas-de-Calais	68	0	1.47	1.47	5.88	4.41	0	7.35	8.82	0	5.88	0	0	0	2.94	61.76	0
7 Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur	45	2.22	0	2.22	8.89	2.22	0	6.67	8.89	0	6.67	0	0	4.44	0	55.55	2.22
Mainland France	555	0.32	2.31	0.74	4.54	2.75	1.07	5.16	8.88	1.58	6.39	0.34	0.16	0.63	2.62	60.78	1.73

this research was real
here the map of provinces from which samples were taken( with haplogroups)
https://i.imgur.com/PcNGA22.jpg

[Angela]

this research was real
here the map of provinces from which samples were taken( with haplogroups)
https://i.imgur.com/PcNGA22.jpg

Modern frequencies for France normally aren't all that helpful, I'm afraid. There are lots and lots of North Africans in southeastern France as well as in other parts of France. It can total 20% or more of the population. You should visit Marseilles.

I'd be very surprised if the study from which the pie chart comes used only men with French last names. Could you direct me to the page in the study where it says that? It seems a bit unlikely given how French law prohibits "racial" or ethnic identification in most matters.

We also shouldn't forget Fraxinetum, and it's possible effect not only on Provence, but neighboring areas. I think the Auvergne could be explained that way through a spread from there and then some founder effect if it's really found in men with French surnames. After all, Nimes, where three Berber skeletons of the Medieval period were buried facing Mecca, is not all that far from some parts of the Auvergne.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraxinetum



It seems that some percentage of the pirates were actually Muslim converts from Andalucia, which might be another reason for some Iberian specific R1b in that area and even western Liguria.

Of course, given the small number of men, their autosomal signature would have been wiped out pretty quickly.

Unless the yDna analysis got down very far into subclades to determine if these are men with parentage from North Africa recently or from the Middle Ages, I would think.

[kingjohn]

Modern frequencies for France normally aren't all that helpful, I'm afraid. There are lots and lots of North Africans in southeastern France as well as in other parts of France. It can total 20% or more of the population. You should visit Marseilles.

I'd be very surprised if the study from which the pie chart comes used only men with French last names. Could you direct me to the page in the study where it says that? It seems a bit unlikely given how French law prohibits "racial" or ethnic identification in most matters.

We also shouldn't forget Fraxinetum, and it's possible effect not only on Provence, but neighboring areas. I think the Auvergne could be explained that way through a spread from there and then some founder effect if it's really found in men with French surnames. After all, Nimes, where three Berber skeletons of the Medieval period were buried facing Mecca, is not all that far from some parts of the Auvergne.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraxinetum



It seems that some percentage of the pirates were actually Muslim converts from Andalucia, which might be another reason for some Iberian specific R1b in that area and even western Liguria.

Of course, given the small number of men, their autosomal signature would have been wiped out pretty quickly.

Unless the yDna analysis got down very far into subclades to determine if these are men with parentage from North Africa recently or from the Middle Ages, I would think.

yes i was in marseilles when i was 22 years old that was 13 years ago lol
and there were indeed many algerians there but i also saw many italians
and armenians
i liked marseilles it fealt very cosmopolitan i didn't fealt stranger there .....

yes the people in this research are with french surname


2. Materials and methods

Sample collection was performed drawing blood of unrelated male individuals with French surname after informed consent.

source:

https://www.fsigeneticssup.com/artic...234-0/fulltext



p.s
some branches of e-m81 could be pretty old in france 300-500 AD
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY9753/


https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A1152/

but i am open minded to the nimes e-m81 samples that could be somehow related to
auvergne :)

[Angela]

yes i was in marseilles when i was 22 years old that was 13 years ago lol
and there were indeed many algerians there but i also saw many italians
and armenians
i liked marsile it fealt very cosmopolitan i didn't fealt stranger there .....

yes the people in this research are with french surname
2. Materials and methods

Sample collection was performed drawing blood of unrelated male individuals with French surname after informed consent.

source:

https://www.fsigeneticssup.com/artic...234-0/fulltext



p.s
some branches of e-m81 could be pretty old in france 300-500 AD
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY9753/


https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A1152/

but i am open minded to the nimes e-m81 samples that could be somehow related to
auvergne :)

Thanks. That’s very interesting indeed.

The name of the paper escapes me now but I think I remember reading somewhere that migration to Spain from North Africa actually began before the massive invasion. I wonder if E-M81 just migrated around the rim of the Mediterranean there a bit. I also don’t know exactly where all the Roman north African cavalry units were stationed.

I also think I remember one Scottish clan is E-M81.

I have to admit I’m not a big fan of Marseilles itself; Port cities are always dirty and crime ridden, but I love the rest of Provence. It was once ours, you know, hence all the Italian surnames. :)

I go every year in the summer when I'm in Italy. I've made good friends there. It's only a few hours drive and I feel just like I'm still home.