New distribution map of Y-DNA haplogroup E-V13

[Angela]

There are basically 2 ways

1- to find an individual on where his/her line first commenced and (BCA test)
2- where one's admixture changes every 6 months based on new members joining. (Gedmatch type of tests)

There are also the "weird" system of getting/using only 5 testers for data for each ethnicity ( dodecad) and using these mimimum testers to claim most European results instead of continuing to gain more testers.
or
The PF ( Ftdna) system where they have a "centre of gravity" system where one is pinpointed to a map of Europe based on ethnic areas...example... for me ....62% Tuscan and 38% Occadian/french....so lets move 38% of the mileage distance from Tuscany towards Britain and mark it...that's the pinpointing.
or
The 23andme system of going back only 500 years

Sile, are all these "ways" you describe ways to show or prove someone is European? I know something of your ancestry. Of course you're European...why would you doubt it? I really don't understand. I can trace most of my ancestors back to the middle of the 16th century, and some even further back...all Italian. I have no doubt that the the vast majority were in Italy for a thousand years, at least, before that. My ancestors tilled this land, built its great architectural wonders, engaged in its commerce, participated in and benefited from the Renaissance, which, in my opinion, defined what it means to be a member of western civilization. I'm Italian, and European. What else could I be?

EVERYONE in Europe has ancestors who arrived from somewhere else. EVERYONE. It just depends when they got here. I'm personally not interested in drawing a line in time and saying everyone whose ancestors got here before X date is European, and everyone who arrived later, is not.

For those who are, I would just say that generally human variation is clinal. You can't contain it within political boundaries, or even within geographical boundaries. As the whole series of articles by the Reich group at Harvard shows, the "European" populations were formed by an admixture of a North Eurasian group, with similarities to the ancestors of the Amerindians, and a west Eurasian group probably radiating out of the greater Near East somewhere, some of whom arrived in the Mesolithic, for example, some from the Neolithic, perhaps some from the Bronze Age. All Europeans show admixture from those two groups, albeit in different proportions, and forming some general clines within Europe. That's the way it is. It's not as neat for Europeans as it is for the Han, who form a more distinct pole, or the Yoruba, on the other hand, who form another pole.

As for the "ways" you listed, they are, of course, all flawed.

To base one's identity on one y line in your ancestry, which represents only 2% of your genes, seems rather silly to me, I must say. Just as an example, I carry mt dna U2e. The latest research I've seen said U2 arose in the Middle East after the Out of Africa migration. Much of it went to India, but some headed into Europe. The U2 at Kostenki is tens of thousands of years old. It has been found from Andronovo and other steppe cultures all the way to Basque country, and everywhere in between. So, which do I pick? Am I, for example, supposed to feel like a steppe dwelling pastoralist? I assure you that I don't.

The other option is autosomally testing for "admixture", at least admixture on the level where it can be done or accessed through such things as the Dodecad calculators. You seem to have some issues with it, but I think it's a much better option than chasing after one "Y" line to see when your particular mutation hit the shores of Europe.

I, like you, am no fan of the FTDNA analysis. I'm likewise not a fan of Dr. Mcdonald's program. He created both programs, you know, and although he has changed his own algorithm a bit, it is still the same general method.

Of the other calculators available, I personally have the most faith in those done by Dienekes, for the simple reason that the populations, except for his own "Dodecad" members, are all publicly available, and he published his methodology, so anyone can duplicate his analysis on their own, and ensure that it is honestly done, given of course that they have the computer skills that are necessary. (BTW, there are far more than 5 participants in most of those studies; there are many samples available for Tuscans for example. The proof that you don't need all that many samples to get pretty accurate results can be seen from the results for Ashkenazim, for example. You can compare the results based on the Behar samples, and the Dodecad volunteers, and the results are almost identical. Or, take me, for example, my ancestry comes almost entirely from the corridor which runs from Parma to La Spezia. My dodecad results are without exception almost exactly midway between the scores for Bergamo and Toscana. )

That's not to say that I think these tools can't be improved. That's precisely why new populations keep getting added; it's to make them more accurate. Also, this analysis only goes back so far, not as far as the admixture event(s) proposed by the Reich group for example. The clusters are also somewhat ambiguous, and change from run to run because they are experiments done to try to figure out the peopling of West Eurasia. They weren't done for the "consumers".

As for 23andme, I don't actually think it only goes back 500 years. I think that statement was put out there mainly to cover themselves because at this point it can't be proved exactly how far back it does reach, but that's a different discussion, and this is already way too long. :)

[Sile]

Sile, are all these "ways" you describe ways to show or prove someone is European? I know something of your ancestry. Of course you're European...why would you doubt it?

I was trying to make the point that you cannot show you are 100% european via gedmatch type of tests.

I know I am 100% european, I have no concerns on this, I am more interested to find the beginning of my line. Nationality does not interest me in genetics. I was told my line was only 3250 years old.

What do you know about my Personnel ancestry??

I can trace most of my ancestors back to the middle of the 16th century, and some even further back...all Italian. I have no doubt that the the vast majority were in Italy for a thousand years, at least, before that. My ancestors tilled this land, built its great architectural wonders, engaged in its commerce, participated in and benefited from the Renaissance, which, in my opinion, defined what it means to be a member of western civilization. I'm Italian, and European. What else could I be?

I can trace mine for 300 years plus via birth, death registers and am only missing from 1600 to 1700 . If I find these then I can continue to 1180

You can find some ancestry via registries here
http://www.antenati.san.benicultural...e+napoleonico/
or other italian areas from this site

I was sent this as part of my line, if I connect I can go back to 1180
http://www.coroparrocchialetassullo....ogia/PretH.htm

To base one's identity on one y line in your ancestry, which represents only 2% of your genes, seems rather silly to me, I must say. Just as an example, I carry mt dna U2e. The latest research I've seen said U2 arose in the Middle East after the Out of Africa migration. Much of it went to India, but some headed into Europe. The U2 at Kostenki is tens of thousands of years old. It has been found from Andronovo and other steppe cultures all the way to Basque country, and everywhere in between. So, which do I pick? Am I, for example, supposed to feel like a steppe dwelling pastoralist? I assure you that I don't.

What is this 2% thing you bring up?

The other option is autosomally testing for "admixture", at least admixture on the level where it can be done or accessed through such things as the Dodecad calculators. You seem to have some issues with it, but I think it's a much better option than chasing after one "Y" line to see when your particular mutation hit the shores of Europe.

I, like you, am no fan of the FTDNA analysis. I'm likewise not a fan of Dr. Mcdonald's program. He created both programs, you know, and although he has changed his own algorithm a bit, it is still the same general method.

Of the other calculators available, I personally have the most faith in those done by Dienekes, for the simple reason that the populations, except for his own "Dodecad" members, are all publicly available, and he published his methodology, so anyone can duplicate his analysis on their own, and ensure that it is honestly done, given of course that they have the computer skills that are necessary. (BTW, there are far more than 5 participants in most of those studies; there are many samples available for Tuscans for example. The proof that you don't need all that many samples to get pretty accurate results can be seen from the results for Ashkenazim, for example. You can compare the results based on the Behar samples, and the Dodecad volunteers, and the results are almost identical. Or, take me, for example, my ancestry comes almost entirely from the corridor which runs from Parma to La Spezia. My dodecad results are without exception almost exactly midway between the scores for Bergamo and Toscana. )

You clearly know more than I about admixtures , so check this site and the 3 maps

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/201...efuge-for.html

As for 23andme, I don't actually think it only goes back 500 years. I think that statement was put out there mainly to cover themselves because at this point it can't be proved exactly how far back it does reach, but that's a different discussion, and this is already way too long. :)

Well ,I read only 500 years, if you say its different then so be it.
They still mark me as 100% european

[Angela]

I was trying to make the point that you cannot show you are 100% european via gedmatch type of tests.

I know I am 100% european, I have no concerns on this, I am more interested to find the beginning of my line. Nationality does not interest me in genetics. I was told my line was only 3250 years old.

What do you know about my Personnel ancestry??

I can trace mine for 300 years plus via birth, death registers and am only missing from 1600 to 1700 . If I find these then I can continue to 1180

You clearly know more than I about admixtures , so check this site and the 3 maps

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/201...efuge-for.html

I think perhaps we have been misunderstanding one another. I mentioned your ancestry only because you had posted previously here on this site that like me you had taken the time to do some genealogy and knew that your ancestry was deep rooted in Italy, and so, obviously, European for centuries. No offense was meant, I assure you.

I did take a look at the Eurogenes commentary about the latest Skoglund paper, but as it isn't about y dna E, I've taken the liberty of posting my thoughts about it, for whatever they're worth, in the autosomal thread where you were posting.

[Alan]

After E-M81, here is the map of the E-V13 subclade. The distribution of the two haplogroups don't match at all, except in Iberia. E-V13 is clearly linked to the Thessalian Neolithic and its offshoots, such as the Linear Pottery (LBK) culture. It was also part of the Cardium Pottery Culture, as attested by the 7000-year-old E-V13 sample from Catalonia, which belonged to that culture.


Click to enlarge

E-V13 also seems to have spread the Neolithic to the Caucasus, Mesopotamia and Iran, but could have bypassed Syria, where it isn't found, except in Assyria and Kurdistan.

The Kurds have the highest percentage of E-V13 in the Middle East. They also have have high percentages of I2a1b and R1a, which makes me think that they could be descended from the Thracians or a relative tribe from the region of Romania or Bulgaria. Or at least it would mean that a Thracian-related tribe settled in what is now Kurdistan, probably long before the actual Kurds arrived.

Or maybe descend of Cimmerians beside Medes ancestry? Since as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts. Cimmerians appeared like an Iranian group which showed strong connections to Thracians. Almost like the bridge between Iranians and Thracians.

Also interestingly according to a study on Eurasian cultures. The Kurds, Bulgarians and Russian appear close.

Cultural Distance Calculator Part 3
Today, I want to present network clusters for cultures to compare them with each other.

It is interesting to note that...
1. Folk music traditions are more determined by the maternal lineages (correlation with mtDNA-haplogroups),
2. "Mother" languages are more determined by the paternal lineages (correlation with Y-Chromosome-haplogroups).
3. Apparently folk stories traditions are more determined by the paternal lineages as well.
4. The resulting culture is a mix of these traditions (+ religious believes + the history).


1. Network based on Folk music traditions (Pamjav et al.): http://link.springer.com/article/10....438-012-0683-y



http://kurdishdna.blogspot.de/2013/0...or-part-3.html


Or maybe it's just a more ancient connection between Kurdistan (West Asia) and the Balkans.

[Alan]

Perhaps those papers that proposed a Mesolithic entrance into Europe for E-V13 were correct. They could then have been one of the earliest groups of converts to Neolithic culture. Based on the origin areas of grains, legumes, and domesticated animals, the Neolithic would still have to originate in Asia Minor.

That's Alawhite territory in Syria that's blank isn't it?

No the huge and blank central area is Sunni, the West coast is mostly Alawi and the South is Druze with Sunni, Alawi and Christian minority, the North/Northeast all the way to the Jabal al akrad (Kurds mountain) in the Northwestern coast corner is also Kurdish populated territory but they might have not tested the people there yet or Maciamo thought it's not Kurdish populated area, so he made it blank.

[Alan]

U would have to look at Kurds R1a subclades I don't know what Bulgaria has I bet not the indo Iranian R1a1a1b Z93 if all Kurdish R1a is under that like in India then it would not have been from Thracians from modern Bulgaria. Like I sad INdo Iranian mtDNa was unique I have heard u say there is some mtDNa from Indo Iranian invasions of India. The way to know is look at Andronovo culture mtDNa Sycthian mtDNA and u will see a trend and figure out if there is any traces in India and other Indo Iranian speakers.

I know of at least three Kurds who belong to R-z283. I assume the majority of R1a* among Kurds is Z93 but there seems to be z283 too.

[Angela]

No the huge and blank central area is Sunni, the West coast is mostly Alawi and the South is Druze, Sunni, Christian mixed, the North/Northwest all the way to the Kurd Mountain in the Northwestern coast corner is also Kurdish populated territory but they might have not tested the people there yet or Maciamo thought it's not Kurdish populated area, so he made it blank.

I was interested in the central area because it almost looks like there might have been a migration wave, perhaps from the south, that might have diluted E-V13 frequencies. Are there historical or pre-historic migration waves that might explain that?

As you say, it might also just mean that this area was not tested.

The map initially brought to mind the fact that some researchers have postulated the birth of some of these down stream E clades like E-V13 and E-123 in the greater Near East.

This is a map of pre-Neolithic sedentary sites in the northern Fertile Crescent.
http://mathildasanthropologyblog.fil...03/maplev1.png

This is one that shows the first domestication of animals:
http://mathildasanthropologyblog.fil...raphic_600.jpg

And this one is for the first domestication of grains:
http://files.abovetopsecret.com/file...zy4f354bc5.jpg

Do these fall within that area of higher frequency?

And how would this correlate with the proposed age for E-V13 generally?

[MOESAN]

Or maybe descend of Cimmerians beside Medes ancestry? Since as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts. Cimmerians appeared like an Iranian group which showed strong connections to Thracians. Almost like the bridge between Iranians and Thracians.

Also interestingly according to a study on Eurasian cultures. The Kurds, Bulgarians and Russian appear close.

Cultural Distance Calculator Part 3
Today, I want to present network clusters for cultures to compare them with each other.

It is interesting to note that...
1. Folk music traditions are more determined by the maternal lineages (correlation with mtDNA-haplogroups),
2. "Mother" languages are more determined by the paternal lineages (correlation with Y-Chromosome-haplogroups).
3. Apparently folk stories traditions are more determined by the paternal lineages as well.
4. The resulting culture is a mix of these traditions (+ religious believes + the history).


1. Network based on Folk music traditions (Pamjav et al.): http://link.springer.com/article/10....438-012-0683-y



http://kurdishdna.blogspot.de/2013/0...or-part-3.html


Or maybe it's just a more ancient connection between Kurdistan (West Asia) and the Balkans.

Cimmerians? concerning current Kurdistan? I don't know... but it is not stupid at first sight
concerning Europe as a whole, I suppose as Maciamo that the first provider of it was the neolithical wave of agriculturors breeders: the map fits very well with this hypothesis - in some parts, we see it is a bit lighter in regions where Y-G2a is very strong: more cardial origin for these last ones? I think in Tyrol, Switzerland, Corsica, Sardinia, Portugal - difficult to be sure upon small regional samples:
my bet: cardial: very more G2a than E1b-V13 - danubian and LBK: equilibrated enough for G2a and E1b-V13
after : plus some early I-Ean later moves (with more J2, and more central Balkans E1b-V13, all envolved after crossings, and in S-Italy, later Greeks moves - Spain: post-neolithic moves too, with Helladic people, close geographically (and culturally?) to Greeks; helladic is geographic, it could cover proto-Hellenes, pre-Anatolians, I-E Anatolians... and Romans could have taken part also, at low levels, lately
good brain storm all of us; I'm going to have tea, before something else tonight, more doping!

[Ike]

It good to note that some Balkan Roma populations are E-V13.
That is interesting because of old European belief that Gypsies are from Egypt.


http://www.poreklo.rs/wp-content/upl...THROPOLOGY.pdf

[Yaan]

It good to note that some Balkan Roma populations are E-V13.
That is interesting because of old European belief that Gypsies are from Egypt.


http://www.poreklo.rs/wp-content/upl...THROPOLOGY.pdf

Gypsies are not big in E-V13, some have it due to drift. Bulgarians, Serbs,Macedonians and Albanians slept with Gypsy women and majority of the children 99+ were raised as Gypsies. E-V13 has nothing to do with Egypt itself, its father M78 has. Gypsies are mostly H1a the second biggest being I1(a mystery who have sex with them to give it to them, maybe Hungarians and Austrians),I2a, J2a4b and E-V13. Just like between 0.5-2% of the Eastern European have Gypsy H, just like 30-40% of the Gypsies have European I1,I2a and E-V13
Also majority of Gypsies in the Balkan come from Central and West Europe, because they were used as slaves there and the Ottomans treated them better. They are from India, then they went to Iran, then some went to Egypt yes.

[Yaan]

Oh and forget to tell u that in one of the samples where they found E-V13 in Gypsies(they are both small so unreliable) they did not really tested what kind of M78+ but what else it could have been at least partially E-V12 ( indeed Egypt here) or E-V22 :)

[Ike]

Article clearly states in the case of Vojvodina it is 4 % of M-123 and 70 % of M-78 (which is represented almost exclusively with E-V13). I don't see how Bulgarians. Serbians or Albanians could have introduced E-V13 into Roma population. The opposite is more logical.

[Yaan]

Article clearly states in the case of Vojvodina it is 4 % of M-123 and 70 % of M-78 (which is represented almost exclusively with E-V13). I don't see how Bulgarians. Serbians or Albanians could have introduced E-V13 into Roma population. The opposite is more logical.

1. E-M78 could be E-V12,E-V13,E-V22 etc
2. Sample is a joke 20-40 people
3. R u crazy E-V13 one of the oldest European groups typical in the Balkan introduced into Bulgarians,Serbs and Albanians by Gypsies
3. The most common group in Gypsies after H, is I1 so Gypsies introduced I1 in Sweden
4. Bulgarians and Serbs were often having sex with Gypsy women and the children were raised as Gypsies, the Gypsies introduced in Bulgarians, Serbs and Albanians only one group and this is H1a, found between 0.1-2%
E-V13 introduced by Gypsy, r u for real

[Yaan]

There is no logic at all in ur thoughts

[Ike]

1. I told you it was E-V13 once, I've repeated it again. Do you even read what other people say? What's that thing about "it could be E-V12". It isn't. Did you read the article?
2. Yes, it's a small sample.
3. Where have you seen E-V13 Bulgarians and Albanians in Vojvodina? The problem is same with Serbians, since Vojvodina has been largely colonized by Serbians in only the last couple of hundred years.
3b. You're talking nonsense now.
4. In Vojvodina? When? Or you're having another theories about where those Gypsies came from?

I've never said that E-V13 was introduced by Gypsies. Where have you seen that?!

[Yaan]

1. Serbs in Voivodina, just like Serbs everywhere in the universe are mostly I2a-Din,E-V13 and R1a(Z280 and M458). One of the biggest Internet celebrities IM is born to father which is 75% Serb and 25% Gypsy( the Gypsy is the great mom) and a Mom 75% Gypsy 25%, he identifies as Gypsy from Serbia(Voivodina) and he is E-V13(coming from Serb great pa).Mystery solved, a lot of Gypsies have I1 and E-V13 from European.Case closed
2. Yes it is ridiculous small
3. There is Albanians and Bulgarians in Voivodina and a lot of them are E-V13
4. Who r u and why r u making such claims? I was speaking in general, the Gypsies in Voivodina live there since 16th century the Serbs and Bulgarians since the early Middle Ages
U stated E-V13 in Bulgarians and Serbs is from Gypsies, this is ridiculous! Case close, no need for me to talk with people like u!
What is ur y and mt DNA? And if u do not know WHY if I may ask(well if u do not have the money, then sorry I understand, but if u r someone that is not tasted because he did not want then it is no point in arguing) , also what is ur nationality??

[Ike]

1. You're too fast to put a 'case closed' on a mass of ambiguous data. If you ran this forum, all threads would be closed I guess :)
2. We already said it was small, so why are you continuing this one...
3. Where. Data?
4. How do you know those were E-V13 Bulgarians or Serbs that came to Vojvodina in 16th century. That's an assumption. Why do you think that distribution of E-V13 from where those Serbs and Bulgarians came from was similar 400 years ago to what is today? That's an assumtion. To get 70% of Romas to be E-V13, requires a very great mass of E-V13 Serb/Bulgarian males to be hot for Gypsy girls, while other part not being inerested at all. How do you explain that? That's a lot of factors to coincide to get the results needed.
5. I've never said that. You seem not to read text with enough caution.

E-V13 introduced by Gypsy, r u for real

This is a brave idea. Interesting that I've never thought about it until you mentioned it. Only thing I'd change is from introduced into distributed.

This is a map of Gypsy arrival to Europe (the first mention). They have been seen on Crete even before 1322. This is todays map, and you can compare it with E-V13 map Maciamo uploaded a week ago. Why couldn't we assume they helped the spreading of E-V13 (or maybe even J) across the Europe. What are the evidence of E-V13 DNA in Europe before 800 AD?

I'm Canadian, don't you recognize me? :)

[ukaj]

1. You're too fast to put a 'case closed' on a mass of ambiguous data. If you ran this forum, all threads would be closed I guess :)
2. We already said it was small, so why are you continuing this one...
3. Where. Data?
4. How do you know those were E-V13 Bulgarians or Serbs that came to Vojvodina in 16th century. That's an assumption. Why do you think that distribution of E-V13 from where those Serbs and Bulgarians came from was similar 400 years ago to what is today? That's an assumtion. To get 70% of Romas to be E-V13, requires a very great mass of E-V13 Serb/Bulgarian males to be hot for Gypsy girls, while other part not being inerested at all. How do you explain that? That's a lot of factors to coincide to get the results needed.
5. I've never said that. You seem not to read text with enough caution.



This is a brave idea. Interesting that I've never thought about it until you mentioned it. Only thing I'd change is from introduced into distributed.

This is a map of Gypsy arrival to Europe (the first mention). They have been seen on Crete even before 1322. This is todays map, and you can compare it with E-V13 map Maciamo uploaded a week ago. Why couldn't we assume they helped the spreading of E-V13 (or maybe even J) across the Europe. What are the evidence of E-V13 DNA in Europe before 800 AD?

I'm Canadian, don't you recognize me? :)

ev-13 a gypsy dna?are you joking me?the only reason why serbs have 27% ev-13 is because when they migrated downwards from behind carpathian mountians they mixed witht he local population,,the highest genetic marker of ev-13 is in albanians an it is far higher than bulgarians an serbs,,This would make ev-13 in balkans before the arrival of 12a2 witch is a eastern eurpean haplogroup..by the way the ev-13 is higher in gheg albanians than tosk,an they dont look anything like kurds,they are very much blue hazel eyes,tall sandy hair,brown hair doesnt seem gypsy looking when most the gypsys came are very dark

[ukaj]

1. You're too fast to put a 'case closed' on a mass of ambiguous data. If you ran this forum, all threads would be closed I guess :)
2. We already said it was small, so why are you continuing this one...
3. Where. Data?
4. How do you know those were E-V13 Bulgarians or Serbs that came to Vojvodina in 16th century. That's an assumption. Why do you think that distribution of E-V13 from where those Serbs and Bulgarians came from was similar 400 years ago to what is today? That's an assumtion. To get 70% of Romas to be E-V13, requires a very great mass of E-V13 Serb/Bulgarian males to be hot for Gypsy girls, while other part not being inerested at all. How do you explain that? That's a lot of factors to coincide to get the results needed.
5. I've never said that. You seem not to read text with enough caution.



This is a brave idea. Interesting that I've never thought about it until you mentioned it. Only thing I'd change is from introduced into distributed.

This is a map of Gypsy arrival to Europe (the first mention). They have been seen on Crete even before 1322. This is todays map, and you can compare it with E-V13 map Maciamo uploaded a week ago. Why couldn't we assume they helped the spreading of E-V13 (or maybe even J) across the Europe. What are the evidence of E-V13 DNA in Europe before 800 AD?

I'm Canadian, don't you recognize me? :)

An I halpgroup split from IJ,this is how J halpgroup became alone as with I,1b,12b,12a,i2a1,i2a2<<< is the very last gentic drift,ev-13 was in southeastern balkans way before I2a2 came with slav migration in 6thctry,his is why slavs has such high percent of i2a2 they came in slav migration an mixed with the local population wich must have not been many because the so high percent of i2a2 their,an another thing that stands out is that the serbian language,as no language common with the people of past in thoses reigions bosnia,croatia,serbia nothing,,an albanians do witch would make that the ev-13 was their much early than them all.not to mention ev-13 supposed to be a migration from asia minor between 6000bc an 10,000bc..

[Ike]

@ #68 You obviously didn't read what I said.
@ #69 You obviously didn't check any of that on forum.

[albanopolis]

What the map shows is that E-V13 is the only one clearly European clade. The E-V13 in north africa and Iraq is a result of Roman conquest or Greek colonies. It could be said that E-V13 and probably J2b are the earliest Europeans after I.

[Shetop]

What the map shows is that E-V13 is the only one clearly European clade. The E-V13 in north africa and Iraq is a result of Roman conquest or Greek colonies. It could be said that E-V13 and probably J2b are the earliest Europeans after I.

Indeed, this map made me think about something similar with your assumption.
I agree that maybe we could start hypothesizing about E-V13 and J2b arriving to Eastern Mediterranean from some part of Europe and not the opposite way (Near East to Europe).
My assumption differs from yours in supposed time frame. I would rather connect the expansion of E-V13 and J2b to Eastern Mediterranean with some earlier period. This could be an example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Dark_Ages

[adamo]

In terms of haplogroup E, only 10% of southern Spanish Andalusian males belong to it. It is found in 5% of Catalan males and isn't present in Basque samples. Sardinians according to this study have only 5%, but Sicilians have a whopping 27% hg E. About 13% of it belongs to any subclade of E-M78. Calabrians also have about 22-23% hg E among them of which the majority tends to fit under E-M78 although another sample found abnormal highs of E-M123 in another Calabrian study. North-central Italians though were found to only have 10%. Poles, Ukrainians, Hungarians and Croatians all have between 5-8% hg E. Greeks and Albanians though have about 25% hg E each. Northern Greeks (Macedonians) have 20% E as well. Turks have about 10-15% hg E whereas Lebanese have about 20%. Georgians have 0% E, but Ashkenazi Jews have 20% and Sephardic Jews have 30%. Iraqis have 10% E. In Africa, E is found among 80% of ethiopia's Oromo people and 45% of Amhara. Almost all of this is E3b. The Khoisan have about 66% E component, about 30% of which is E3a. Bantu peoples have about 83% hg E membership of which 55% is E3a. 98% of Senegalese men belong to hg E of which 81% are E3a. Burkina Faso is a similar story with 99% of them being E of which 70% is sub-Saharan African E3a. 85% of men in Mali also have hg E, but only 20% of it is sub-Saharan African E3a. Tunisians are about 55% hg E of which 52% is E3b. Algerians are about 66% hg E, all is E3b. Saharawish people are 83% hg E oft which 80% is E3b. Southern Moroccan Berbers have 88% hg E membership of which 86% is E3b. North-central Moroccan Berbers have 87% hg E. Morrocan Berbers have no lower than 85% hg E membership, most of it E3b. Moroccan Arabs have slightly lower E3b levels (75%).

[MOESAN]

concerning genuine gypsies of SE Europe, it is to say 'tzigans', I have no big knowledge - but what we know about all these kinds of nomadic people is that their story in Europe varied a bit from family to family or clan to clan - some of the today nomadic folks in Europe are autochtone people throwed on the roads by poverty and lack of help from their own people, without any link with "intouchables" of the Indies (germanic Swiss people, irish "tinkers" ... - it would not be surprising that some of them incorporated small genuine tzygan families - the case is rare but not absent (in today France it occurs and some individuals "Gipsies", "Gitanos", "Roms", "Tzygans" show european atavic traits in their phenotypes; the "knowing-how-to-do" and technical skills of the new "adopted" males could have provided some advantages to the first nomadic folks -
so Y-E1-V13 among Balkans "Gipsies" to name them as you, could very well be the result of long during contacts between nomads and sedentary local people... it could be too a founder effect in some firstable isolated clan? let's keep in mind these Tzygans are the smaller number among numerous populations of Balkans -
for me Y-E-V13 is old enough in Europe, older than the bulk of Y-J2, I think Mesolithic (or the upstream SNP that gave birth to it in a surely small enough population before baby boom) - the most of expansion North the Donau river and around is at first the result of 'danubian' and then 'LBK' expansions - and the most of the expansion in Méditerranea is linked in small proportions to neolithic too, but in big proportions to Greeks colonisation - what does not exclude some small numbers of its bearers at every time in different cultural moves -

[adamo]

What's interesting about E3b in Italy is that it peaks at 24% of men in the Basilicata region. The mystery though, is that only 8% of it is E-V13. Another 8% are E-V22 and 4% each are E-V12 and E-M123; indicating a non-Greek origin for a nice slice of the E3b in that region. The region of Agrigento in southwestern Sicily, once a Greek colony has 22% E3b. 10% of it is E-V13. The other 12% is probably directly of Tunisia or other north-African ancestry. The Benevento region of Campania has about 20% E3b of which 9% is E3b, leaving 11% of the E3b of more exotic probably non-Greek origin. Catanzaro region of Calabria has 19% E3b; 11% is E-V13 (other few rare E subclades may have come along with Greeks.). Surprisingly the Vicenza region of Veneto has 18% E3b, the overwhelming majority of it is the Balkanic E-V13 leading me to believe Greek colonists settled among there. The Genoa region has 16% E3b; all of it E-V13 indicating definite minor Greek colonization of the Ligurian coast. Lecce in Apulia also has 16% E3b; all of it is E-V13 here as well indicating Greek presence. Grosseto/Siena has 15% E3b of which only 5% is E-V13 leading me to believe more ancestral/mysterious origins for most E3b there. L'Aquila in Abruzzo has 14% E3b; all of it Greek E-V13. Molise has 14% E3b of which half is E-V13. Ragusa and Catania have 14-14% of which only 4-5% is E-V13. Macerata has 13% of which 8% is E-V13. Como oddly has 12% all of it E-V13. Treviso and bologna have 10% of which 7% is E-V13. Sardinia is strange. Only 2.5% of men are E3b in the northeast (one E-V13). The central west has 12% E3b of which 10% is E-M123.