New distribution map of Y-DNA haplogroup E-V13

Oh and forget to tell u that in one of the samples where they found E-V13 in Gypsies(they are both small so unreliable) they did not really tested what kind of M78+ but what else it could have been at least partially E-V12 ( indeed Egypt here) or E-V22 :)
 
Article clearly states in the case of Vojvodina it is 4 % of M-123 and 70 % of M-78 (which is represented almost exclusively with E-V13). I don't see how Bulgarians. Serbians or Albanians could have introduced E-V13 into Roma population. The opposite is more logical.
 
Article clearly states in the case of Vojvodina it is 4 % of M-123 and 70 % of M-78 (which is represented almost exclusively with E-V13). I don't see how Bulgarians. Serbians or Albanians could have introduced E-V13 into Roma population. The opposite is more logical.
1. E-M78 could be E-V12,E-V13,E-V22 etc
2. Sample is a joke 20-40 people
3. R u crazy E-V13 one of the oldest European groups typical in the Balkan introduced into Bulgarians,Serbs and Albanians by Gypsies
3. The most common group in Gypsies after H, is I1 so Gypsies introduced I1 in Sweden
4. Bulgarians and Serbs were often having sex with Gypsy women and the children were raised as Gypsies, the Gypsies introduced in Bulgarians, Serbs and Albanians only one group and this is H1a, found between 0.1-2%
E-V13 introduced by Gypsy, r u for real :embarassed::petrified:
 
There is no logic at all in ur thoughts
 
1. I told you it was E-V13 once, I've repeated it again. Do you even read what other people say? What's that thing about "it could be E-V12". It isn't. Did you read the article?
2. Yes, it's a small sample.
3. Where have you seen E-V13 Bulgarians and Albanians in Vojvodina? The problem is same with Serbians, since Vojvodina has been largely colonized by Serbians in only the last couple of hundred years.
3b. You're talking nonsense now.
4. In Vojvodina? When? Or you're having another theories about where those Gypsies came from?

I've never said that E-V13 was introduced by Gypsies. Where have you seen that?!
 
1. Serbs in Voivodina, just like Serbs everywhere in the universe are mostly I2a-Din,E-V13 and R1a(Z280 and M458). One of the biggest Internet celebrities IM is born to father which is 75% Serb and 25% Gypsy( the Gypsy is the great mom) and a Mom 75% Gypsy 25%, he identifies as Gypsy from Serbia(Voivodina) and he is E-V13(coming from Serb great pa).Mystery solved, a lot of Gypsies have I1 and E-V13 from European.Case closed
2. Yes it is ridiculous small
3. There is Albanians and Bulgarians in Voivodina and a lot of them are E-V13
4. Who r u and why r u making such claims? I was speaking in general, the Gypsies in Voivodina live there since 16th century the Serbs and Bulgarians since the early Middle Ages
U stated E-V13 in Bulgarians and Serbs is from Gypsies, this is ridiculous! Case close, no need for me to talk with people like u!
What is ur y and mt DNA? And if u do not know WHY if I may ask(well if u do not have the money, then sorry I understand, but if u r someone that is not tasted because he did not want then it is no point in arguing) , also what is ur nationality??
 
1. You're too fast to put a 'case closed' on a mass of ambiguous data. If you ran this forum, all threads would be closed I guess :)
2. We already said it was small, so why are you continuing this one...
3. Where. Data?
4. How do you know those were E-V13 Bulgarians or Serbs that came to Vojvodina in 16th century. That's an assumption. Why do you think that distribution of E-V13 from where those Serbs and Bulgarians came from was similar 400 years ago to what is today? That's an assumtion. To get 70% of Romas to be E-V13, requires a very great mass of E-V13 Serb/Bulgarian males to be hot for Gypsy girls, while other part not being inerested at all. How do you explain that? That's a lot of factors to coincide to get the results needed.
5. I've never said that. You seem not to read text with enough caution.


E-V13 introduced by Gypsy, r u for real :embarassed::petrified:
This is a brave idea. Interesting that I've never thought about it until you mentioned it. Only thing I'd change is from introduced into distributed.

This is a map of Gypsy arrival to Europe (the first mention). They have been seen on Crete even before 1322. This is todays map, and you can compare it with E-V13 map Maciamo uploaded a week ago. Why couldn't we assume they helped the spreading of E-V13 (or maybe even J) across the Europe. What are the evidence of E-V13 DNA in Europe before 800 AD?

I'm Canadian, don't you recognize me? :)
 
1. You're too fast to put a 'case closed' on a mass of ambiguous data. If you ran this forum, all threads would be closed I guess :)
2. We already said it was small, so why are you continuing this one...
3. Where. Data?
4. How do you know those were E-V13 Bulgarians or Serbs that came to Vojvodina in 16th century. That's an assumption. Why do you think that distribution of E-V13 from where those Serbs and Bulgarians came from was similar 400 years ago to what is today? That's an assumtion. To get 70% of Romas to be E-V13, requires a very great mass of E-V13 Serb/Bulgarian males to be hot for Gypsy girls, while other part not being inerested at all. How do you explain that? That's a lot of factors to coincide to get the results needed.
5. I've never said that. You seem not to read text with enough caution.



This is a brave idea. Interesting that I've never thought about it until you mentioned it. Only thing I'd change is from introduced into distributed.

This is a map of Gypsy arrival to Europe (the first mention). They have been seen on Crete even before 1322. This is todays map, and you can compare it with E-V13 map Maciamo uploaded a week ago. Why couldn't we assume they helped the spreading of E-V13 (or maybe even J) across the Europe. What are the evidence of E-V13 DNA in Europe before 800 AD?

I'm Canadian, don't you recognize me? :)
ev-13 a gypsy dna?are you joking me?the only reason why serbs have 27% ev-13 is because when they migrated downwards from behind carpathian mountians they mixed witht he local population,,the highest genetic marker of ev-13 is in albanians an it is far higher than bulgarians an serbs,,This would make ev-13 in balkans before the arrival of 12a2 witch is a eastern eurpean haplogroup..by the way the ev-13 is higher in gheg albanians than tosk,an they dont look anything like kurds,they are very much blue hazel eyes,tall sandy hair,brown hair doesnt seem gypsy looking when most the gypsys came are very dark
 
1. You're too fast to put a 'case closed' on a mass of ambiguous data. If you ran this forum, all threads would be closed I guess :)
2. We already said it was small, so why are you continuing this one...
3. Where. Data?
4. How do you know those were E-V13 Bulgarians or Serbs that came to Vojvodina in 16th century. That's an assumption. Why do you think that distribution of E-V13 from where those Serbs and Bulgarians came from was similar 400 years ago to what is today? That's an assumtion. To get 70% of Romas to be E-V13, requires a very great mass of E-V13 Serb/Bulgarian males to be hot for Gypsy girls, while other part not being inerested at all. How do you explain that? That's a lot of factors to coincide to get the results needed.
5. I've never said that. You seem not to read text with enough caution.



This is a brave idea. Interesting that I've never thought about it until you mentioned it. Only thing I'd change is from introduced into distributed.

This is a map of Gypsy arrival to Europe (the first mention). They have been seen on Crete even before 1322. This is todays map, and you can compare it with E-V13 map Maciamo uploaded a week ago. Why couldn't we assume they helped the spreading of E-V13 (or maybe even J) across the Europe. What are the evidence of E-V13 DNA in Europe before 800 AD?

I'm Canadian, don't you recognize me? :)
An I halpgroup split from IJ,this is how J halpgroup became alone as with I,1b,12b,12a,i2a1,i2a2<<< is the very last gentic drift,ev-13 was in southeastern balkans way before I2a2 came with slav migration in 6thctry,his is why slavs has such high percent of i2a2 they came in slav migration an mixed with the local population wich must have not been many because the so high percent of i2a2 their,an another thing that stands out is that the serbian language,as no language common with the people of past in thoses reigions bosnia,croatia,serbia nothing,,an albanians do witch would make that the ev-13 was their much early than them all.not to mention ev-13 supposed to be a migration from asia minor between 6000bc an 10,000bc..
 
@ #68 You obviously didn't read what I said.
@ #69 You obviously didn't check any of that on forum.
 
What the map shows is that E-V13 is the only one clearly European clade. The E-V13 in north africa and Iraq is a result of Roman conquest or Greek colonies. It could be said that E-V13 and probably J2b are the earliest Europeans after I.
 
What the map shows is that E-V13 is the only one clearly European clade. The E-V13 in north africa and Iraq is a result of Roman conquest or Greek colonies. It could be said that E-V13 and probably J2b are the earliest Europeans after I.

Indeed, this map made me think about something similar with your assumption.
I agree that maybe we could start hypothesizing about E-V13 and J2b arriving to Eastern Mediterranean from some part of Europe and not the opposite way (Near East to Europe).
My assumption differs from yours in supposed time frame. I would rather connect the expansion of E-V13 and J2b to Eastern Mediterranean with some earlier period. This could be an example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Dark_Ages
 
In terms of haplogroup E, only 10% of southern Spanish Andalusian males belong to it. It is found in 5% of Catalan males and isn't present in Basque samples. Sardinians according to this study have only 5%, but Sicilians have a whopping 27% hg E. About 13% of it belongs to any subclade of E-M78. Calabrians also have about 22-23% hg E among them of which the majority tends to fit under E-M78 although another sample found abnormal highs of E-M123 in another Calabrian study. North-central Italians though were found to only have 10%. Poles, Ukrainians, Hungarians and Croatians all have between 5-8% hg E. Greeks and Albanians though have about 25% hg E each. Northern Greeks (Macedonians) have 20% E as well. Turks have about 10-15% hg E whereas Lebanese have about 20%. Georgians have 0% E, but Ashkenazi Jews have 20% and Sephardic Jews have 30%. Iraqis have 10% E. In Africa, E is found among 80% of ethiopia's Oromo people and 45% of Amhara. Almost all of this is E3b. The Khoisan have about 66% E component, about 30% of which is E3a. Bantu peoples have about 83% hg E membership of which 55% is E3a. 98% of Senegalese men belong to hg E of which 81% are E3a. Burkina Faso is a similar story with 99% of them being E of which 70% is sub-Saharan African E3a. 85% of men in Mali also have hg E, but only 20% of it is sub-Saharan African E3a. Tunisians are about 55% hg E of which 52% is E3b. Algerians are about 66% hg E, all is E3b. Saharawish people are 83% hg E oft which 80% is E3b. Southern Moroccan Berbers have 88% hg E membership of which 86% is E3b. North-central Moroccan Berbers have 87% hg E. Morrocan Berbers have no lower than 85% hg E membership, most of it E3b. Moroccan Arabs have slightly lower E3b levels (75%).
 
concerning genuine gypsies of SE Europe, it is to say 'tzigans', I have no big knowledge - but what we know about all these kinds of nomadic people is that their story in Europe varied a bit from family to family or clan to clan - some of the today nomadic folks in Europe are autochtone people throwed on the roads by poverty and lack of help from their own people, without any link with "intouchables" of the Indies (germanic Swiss people, irish "tinkers" ... - it would not be surprising that some of them incorporated small genuine tzygan families - the case is rare but not absent (in today France it occurs and some individuals "Gipsies", "Gitanos", "Roms", "Tzygans" show european atavic traits in their phenotypes; the "knowing-how-to-do" and technical skills of the new "adopted" males could have provided some advantages to the first nomadic folks -
so Y-E1-V13 among Balkans "Gipsies" to name them as you, could very well be the result of long during contacts between nomads and sedentary local people... it could be too a founder effect in some firstable isolated clan? let's keep in mind these Tzygans are the smaller number among numerous populations of Balkans -
for me Y-E-V13 is old enough in Europe, older than the bulk of Y-J2, I think Mesolithic (or the upstream SNP that gave birth to it in a surely small enough population before baby boom) - the most of expansion North the Donau river and around is at first the result of 'danubian' and then 'LBK' expansions - and the most of the expansion in Méditerranea is linked in small proportions to neolithic too, but in big proportions to Greeks colonisation - what does not exclude some small numbers of its bearers at every time in different cultural moves -
 
What's interesting about E3b in Italy is that it peaks at 24% of men in the Basilicata region. The mystery though, is that only 8% of it is E-V13. Another 8% are E-V22 and 4% each are E-V12 and E-M123; indicating a non-Greek origin for a nice slice of the E3b in that region. The region of Agrigento in southwestern Sicily, once a Greek colony has 22% E3b. 10% of it is E-V13. The other 12% is probably directly of Tunisia or other north-African ancestry. The Benevento region of Campania has about 20% E3b of which 9% is E3b, leaving 11% of the E3b of more exotic probably non-Greek origin. Catanzaro region of Calabria has 19% E3b; 11% is E-V13 (other few rare E subclades may have come along with Greeks.). Surprisingly the Vicenza region of Veneto has 18% E3b, the overwhelming majority of it is the Balkanic E-V13 leading me to believe Greek colonists settled among there. The Genoa region has 16% E3b; all of it E-V13 indicating definite minor Greek colonization of the Ligurian coast. Lecce in Apulia also has 16% E3b; all of it is E-V13 here as well indicating Greek presence. Grosseto/Siena has 15% E3b of which only 5% is E-V13 leading me to believe more ancestral/mysterious origins for most E3b there. L'Aquila in Abruzzo has 14% E3b; all of it Greek E-V13. Molise has 14% E3b of which half is E-V13. Ragusa and Catania have 14-14% of which only 4-5% is E-V13. Macerata has 13% of which 8% is E-V13. Como oddly has 12% all of it E-V13. Treviso and bologna have 10% of which 7% is E-V13. Sardinia is strange. Only 2.5% of men are E3b in the northeast (one E-V13). The central west has 12% E3b of which 10% is E-M123.
 
Italy has absorbed a large jewish community through time, that i why E has a variety of subclades. Ballkans have had small jewish communities that is why the E is homogenious over there.
 
E-M123 might be the key to understand E-V13, since they probably spread together with the Neolithic Farmers. E-M123* is more common in Iberia, and guess where they found the 7000 year old E-V13, Iberia. A place which makes sense, since early farmers would need mild weather for their primitive agriculture to work.
Here is where E-M123* has been found:
Cruciani et al. (2004) located one individual in Bulgaria after testing 3401 individuals from five continents (of which 116 were Bulgarian), and Underhill et al. (2000) located one individual in Central Asia out of 1062 people tested, including 184 from Central Asia and Siberia.
In a 568 person study in Iberia, Flores et al. (2005) found two E-M123* individuals, both in Northern Portugal out of 109 people tested there.
In a 553 person study of Portugal, Gonçalves et al. (2005) also found two E-M123* individuals in Northern Portugal, out of 101 people, as well as 2 in Madeira out of 129 people tested there.
Flores et al. (2005) found one individual out of 146 Jordanians, this being one of the 101 individuals tested in Amman.

And here is some info on the Iberian neolithic:
In the 6th millennium BC, Andalusia experiences the arrival of the first agriculturalists. Their origin is uncertain but they arrive with already developed crops (cereals and legumes). The presence of domestic animals instead is unlikely, as only pig[disambiguation needed] and rabbit remains have been found and these could belong to wild animals. They also consumed large amounts of olives but it's uncertain too whether this tree was cultivated or merely harvested in its wild form. Their typical artifact is the La Almagra style pottery, quite variegated.[4]

The Andalusian Neolithic also influenced other areas, notably Southern Portugal, where, soon after the arrival of agriculture, the first dolmen tombs begin to be built c. 4800 BC, being possibly the oldest of their kind anywhere.[4]
C. 4700 BC Cardium Pottery Neolithic culture (also known as Mediterranean Neolithic) arrives to Eastern Iberia. While some remains of this culture have been found as far west as Portugal, its distribution is basically Mediterranean (Catalonia, Valencian region, Ebro valley, Balearic islands).
The interior and the northern coastal areas remain largely marginal in this process of spread of agriculture. In most cases it would only arrive in a very late phase or even already in the Chalcolithic age, together with Megalithism.
 
That is what is to be deciphered at this point, how much of it is Neolithic, how much of it is Greek and how much of it came with Jews during the Middle Ages.
 
Hi,

I am a e1b1b1a1b E-V13 and my father's family is from the Black Forest in Germany(Wagenstadt). Wagenstadt sits on the Western edge of the Black Forest. To tell you the truth I thought the lab got my results were wrong. What I am wondering is how my V13 haplogroup got to Wagenstadt?
 
Hi,

I am a e1b1b1a1b E-V13 and my father's family is from the Black Forest in Germany(Wagenstadt). Wagenstadt sits on the Western edge of the Black Forest. To tell you the truth I thought the lab got my results were wrong. What I am wondering is how my V13 haplogroup got to Wagenstadt?

Congratulation! Its a tough haplogroup what you are having! To mention just a few people who belonged to the haplogroup, Adolph was one, Napoleon another one and many more troublemakers.
To come to your question how come you belong to it? I will suggest some possibilities:
You could be a descendant of a Jew and you don't know. A quarter of jewish or more belong to that haplogroup.
Or since Romans were around there 2000 years ago you could be the descendant of a Roman soldier.
Or since the E v13 people were among the fist inhabitants of the area before anybody else came you could be a descendant of a Neolithic farmer
Or some Normand of middle ages made it there from the Balkans
There are many possibilities and if you have a temper you know now why :LOL:
 

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