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Thread: New distribution map of Y-DNA haplogroup E-V13

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    Arrow New distribution map of Y-DNA haplogroup E-V13

    After E-M81, here is the map of the E-V13 subclade. The distribution of the two haplogroups don't match at all, except in Iberia. E-V13 is clearly linked to the Thessalian Neolithic and its offshoots, such as the Linear Pottery (LBK) culture. It was also part of the Cardium Pottery Culture, as attested by the 7000-year-old E-V13 sample from Catalonia, which belonged to that culture.


    Click to enlarge

    E-V13 also seems to have spread the Neolithic to the Caucasus, Mesopotamia and Iran, but could have bypassed Syria, where it isn't found, except in Assyria and Kurdistan.

    The Kurds have the highest percentage of E-V13 in the Middle East. They also have have high percentages of I2a1b and R1a, which makes me think that they could be descended from the Thracians or a relative tribe from the region of Romania or Bulgaria. Or at least it would mean that a Thracian-related tribe settled in what is now Kurdistan, probably long before the actual Kurds arrived.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    After E-M81, here is the map of the E-V13 subclade. The distribution of the two haplogroups don't match at all, except in Iberia. E-V13 is clearly linked to the Thessalian Neolithic and its offshoots, such as the Linear Pottery (LBK) culture. It was also part of the Cardium Pottery Culture, as attested by the 7000-year-old E-V13 sample from Catalonia, which belonged to that culture.


    Click to enlarge

    E-V13 also seems to have spread the Neolithic to the Caucasus, Mesopotamia and Iran, but could have bypassed Syria, where it isn't found, except in Assyria and Kurdistan.

    The Kurds have the highest percentage of E-V13 in the Middle East. They also have have high percentages of I2a1b and R1a, which makes me think that they could be descended from the Thracians or a relative tribe from the region of Romania or Bulgaria. Or at least it would mean that a Thracian-related tribe settled in what is now Kurdistan, probably long before the actual Kurds arrived.
    Nice, we finally have a map Thanks Maciamo

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    Perhaps those papers that proposed a Mesolithic entrance into Europe for E-V13 were correct. They could then have been one of the earliest groups of converts to Neolithic culture. Based on the origin areas of grains, legumes, and domesticated animals, the Neolithic would still have to originate in Asia Minor.

    That's Alawhite territory in Syria that's blank isn't it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Perhaps those papers that proposed a Mesolithic entrance into Europe for E-V13 were correct. They could then have been one of the earliest groups of converts to Neolithic culture. Based on the origin areas of grains, legumes, and domesticated animals, the Neolithic would still have to originate in Asia Minor.
    Indeed very even dispersal, looks ancient and with European origin. Looks like they were involved in farming from the beginning.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Perhaps those papers that proposed a Mesolithic entrance into Europe for E-V13 were correct. They could then have been one of the earliest groups of converts to Neolithic culture. Based on the origin areas of grains, legumes, and domesticated animals, the Neolithic would still have to originate in Asia Minor.

    That's Alawhite territory in Syria that's blank isn't it?
    No the huge and blank central area is Sunni, the West coast is mostly Alawi and the South is Druze with Sunni, Alawi and Christian minority, the North/Northeast all the way to the Jabal al akrad (Kurds mountain) in the Northwestern coast corner is also Kurdish populated territory but they might have not tested the people there yet or Maciamo thought it's not Kurdish populated area, so he made it blank.
    Last edited by Alan; 03-10-13 at 16:55.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    No the huge and blank central area is Sunni, the West coast is mostly Alawi and the South is Druze, Sunni, Christian mixed, the North/Northwest all the way to the Kurd Mountain in the Northwestern coast corner is also Kurdish populated territory but they might have not tested the people there yet or Maciamo thought it's not Kurdish populated area, so he made it blank.
    I was interested in the central area because it almost looks like there might have been a migration wave, perhaps from the south, that might have diluted E-V13 frequencies. Are there historical or pre-historic migration waves that might explain that?

    As you say, it might also just mean that this area was not tested.

    The map initially brought to mind the fact that some researchers have postulated the birth of some of these down stream E clades like E-V13 and E-123 in the greater Near East.

    This is a map of pre-Neolithic sedentary sites in the northern Fertile Crescent.
    http://mathildasanthropologyblog.fil...03/maplev1.png

    This is one that shows the first domestication of animals:
    http://mathildasanthropologyblog.fil...raphic_600.jpg

    And this one is for the first domestication of grains:
    http://files.abovetopsecret.com/file...zy4f354bc5.jpg

    Do these fall within that area of higher frequency?

    And how would this correlate with the proposed age for E-V13 generally?

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    Thanks a lot for this map!

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    Thank you for this very interesting map. Y-DNA hg 'E' is a weird haplogroup! Maybe there's some correlation between this hg and the Mediterranean-admixture?

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    That was very quick did u make that map in a day. Since 7,000 year old Neolithic farmer from northern Spain had E1b1b V13 it has been in Europe for a pretty long time. I bet it spread with farming but maybe it came earlier I don't know. It doesn't explain though the high amount of E1b1b in central France 10-15% and 15-20%. It does explain though all of the E1b1b in that streak from Romania to Germany and southern Swedan and Norway. But for southeastern Europe there is still about 10% not belonging to E1b1b V13. Its distribution seems pretty similar to Linear potter culture and Rossen from ur migration maps of Europe. But mainly because of Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 spread and Balto Slavic R1a1a1b1 Z283 spread that has changed the Y DNA in eastern and western Europe in a major way. Who know what the percentages for any haplogroup would have been before that. And those Indo European groups could have changed how popular E1b1b, I2a, and G2a are in certain areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    That was very quick did u make that map in a day. Since 7,000 year old Neolithic farmer from northern Spain had E1b1b V13 it has been in Europe for a pretty long time. I bet it spread with farming but maybe it came earlier I don't know. It doesn't explain though the high amount of E1b1b in central France 10-15% and 15-20%. It does explain though all of the E1b1b in that streak from Romania to Germany and southern Swedan and Norway. But for southeastern Europe there is still about 10% not belonging to E1b1b V13. Its distribution seems pretty similar to Linear potter culture and Rossen from ur migration maps of Europe. But mainly because of Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 spread and Balto Slavic R1a1a1b1 Z283 spread that has changed the Y DNA in eastern and western Europe in a major way. Who know what the percentages for any haplogroup would have been before that. And those Indo European groups could have changed how popular E1b1b, I2a, and G2a are in certain areas.
    E-V13,G2a and I2a are European groups. Also there is not 10% of non V13 ,E in South East Europe. In South East Europe E-V12 and E-V22 combined are about 1% and E-M123 is 1-2% and the rest is E-V13.

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    So basically E-V13 IS European because that particular mutation took place in southeastern Europe, but it's parent just behind it though, E-M78 probably originated somewhere near the Egyptian/Sudan frontier and spread across much of Libya,Egypt, and found in Somalia,Ethiopia regions as well. Then E3b at its most basal is certainly of northeast African origin more or less. Same for G2a; but in this case, it's not EUROPEAN because G2a has a cradle of frequency near Georgia/Turkey/Azerbaijan; leading me to believe it infiltrated Mediterranean Europe from there some 10,000-15,000 years ago during the Neolithic period, although this lineage was not propulsed to a sort of "greatness" as the global spread of the J and E3b frequencies would. G1 though, the Base of G seems to have higher diversity/age in Iran, leading me to believe this is ultimately, where this haplogroup comes from.

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    these associations neolithic groupings, what do they represent , ?
    The founding of the marker or where the marker was in neolithic times.?
    If the later, didn't south Yamna have 10% + of T for dagestan on the caspian sea plus another 7% for North ossetian area or am I too late.

    Maykop had G2a4...one group headed for the alps and another to greece

    What about Lezkins and azeri of the Kura-Araxes 9% L , 8% T, and J

    and what is SOPOT?
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    About I2a1b in Kurds around 20% of their y DNA that defntley has a eastern European origin. Maybe the Cimmerians are the source they invaded that area of the mid east around 2,600-2,800ybp according to Herodtus they lived around Ukriane and Russia north of the black sea were I2a1b is pretty popular. They also may have been a Indo Iranian tribe like Sycthians and wikpedia says at least ruled by Indo Iranian elit. I know there was already a Indo Iranian migration with Medes there but if u look at Tarim mummies, Andronovo culture, Sycthian y DNa and other random Y DNA from Indo Iranians in central asia during bronze and iron age. 16 had R1a1 and one had C. They spread a ton of R1a1a1b2 Z93 into asia that deifntley was the majority of their Y DNA. So if Cimmerimans were Indo Iranians like Sycthians they would have had probably majority R1a1a1b1 Z93. Also about Indo Iranians I believe their were a distinct ethnic group by blood not just language. there is a huge constancy in mtDNA, Y DNA, hair color, and eye color from Andronovo culture all the way to the last Indo Iranian tribes in central asai in 400ad. U would have to look at Kurds R1a subclades I don't know what Bulgaria has I bet not the indo Iranian R1a1a1b Z93 if all Kurdish R1a is under that like in India then it would not have been from Thracians from modern Bulgaria. Like I sad INdo Iranian mtDNa was unique I have heard u say there is some mtDNa from Indo Iranian invasions of India. The way to know is look at Andronovo culture mtDNa Sycthian mtDNA and u will see a trend and figure out if there is any traces in India and other Indo Iranian speakers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    U would have to look at Kurds R1a subclades I don't know what Bulgaria has I bet not the indo Iranian R1a1a1b Z93 if all Kurdish R1a is under that like in India then it would not have been from Thracians from modern Bulgaria. Like I sad INdo Iranian mtDNa was unique I have heard u say there is some mtDNa from Indo Iranian invasions of India. The way to know is look at Andronovo culture mtDNa Sycthian mtDNA and u will see a trend and figure out if there is any traces in India and other Indo Iranian speakers.

    I know of at least three Kurds who belong to R-z283. I assume the majority of R1a* among Kurds is Z93 but there seems to be z283 too.

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    Their European SUBCLADES because they originated there. The very basal root of the branch of the HAPLOGROUP E and G are African and more or less west Asian ,respectively.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Their European SUBCLADES because they originated there. The very basal root of the branch of the HAPLOGROUP E and G are African and more or less west Asian ,respectively.
    E-V13 100% European, parent from North East Africa
    G2a(the one observed in Europe) 100% European parent from Kavkaz.
    I2a 100% European, parent the most European haplogrouop in the wolrd.
    Germanic and Celtic R1b 100% European, parent from Anatolia, great parent from Central Asia!
    I will fight R1b lies, insults and propaganda to the end.
    End of discussion :)

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    Easy man. There is no evidence that E-V13 is European.
    Everything suggest so, but until other possibilities are dismissed, it's not appropriate to say that something is 100 % true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    Easy man. There is no evidence that E-V13 is European.
    Everything suggest so, but until other possibilities are dismissed, it's not appropriate to say that something is 100 % true.
    Never easy with brainwashing and propaganda. Man if E-V13 is not European R1b(Germanic and Celtic) is not European.End of story!R1b propaganda would be exposed, crushed and stopped!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaan View Post
    Never easy with brainwashing and propaganda. Man if E-V13 is not European R1b(Germanic and Celtic) is not European.End of story!R1b propaganda would be exposed, crushed and stopped!
    Why does it matter if E-V13 is European or not? That does not make us less superior or inferior. If I am born in America but my father came there from the Balkans it does not mean I am American Indian. (which are the real Americans) So, E V-13 people of today's Europe are in fact North Africans. But not North Africans like the one we see today, but like the ones 10 000 yrs ago without Arabic, subsaharan or European blood infusions. If we Balkan people look somehow different from North Africans is because of geography and other Asian or European admixtures.
    E-V13 people are fundamentally civilization creators. Responsible for farming inventors, housing, navigating, pyramid builders, math, science, military, art, architecture, religion and the list goes on.....

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    <Easy man. There is no evidence that E-V13 is European.>

    Unless you are willing to read the evidence.
    E-v13 is found mostly EU, even more then R1b which extends in high % even outside of EU.

    If the Vikings I1 is European because is derived from non-european I* and that mutation to I1 happened in Europe 20'000 years ago, in the same way, the E-v13 originated in EU around 10'000 years ago from non-european E-M78. And evidence of that is found in Spain 7000 years ago....

    The most European one, is the slavic haplogroup, I2*, it derived from the European I1

    Read some more here:
    "E-V13 IS European because that particular mutation took place in southeastern Europe, but it’s parent E-M78 probably originated somewhere near the Egyptian/Sudan frontier and spread across much of Libya, Egypt, Somalia, Ethiopia. E-V13 is European, with parent from North East Africa. G2a (the one observed in Europe) is European parent from Caucaz. I2a is European with parent I2 the most European haplogrouop in the world. Germanic and Celtic R1b is European with parent from Anatolia and great parent from Central Asia! E-V13 is massively “European” in its distribution, some sub clade of it made it all the way into the western Mediterranean with the Neolithic. It is also clear from many papers that the extremely high Balkan frequencies stem from a founder effect and then a large expansion in relatively more recent times."


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    Well, we should define what being European means. Are we talking about where the mutation occurred or where is the highest distribution.
    It's also useful to consider whether some autosomal mutations have made Hg subclades more distant along the vertical line than in horizontal?

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    Mutation occuered in Europe and its highest distribution is in Europe. End of story :)

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    For E-V13? But we have no proof of that, it could have happened anywhere in Africa or Asia.
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-RFDBC3MrhR...ogeography.jpg

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    What difference does it make where it arose? Y dna "R" clades probably arose in Iran or Central Asia...the "N" clades arose in Siberia...the "G" clades somewhere in the northern near east, as is the case with the "J" clades. For all the claims about y dna "I", who knows if it split from "IJ" in Europe or somewhere nearby in Anatolia.

    As for the "E" clades, it seems increasingly clear to me from all the more recent papers, that "E" split from "D" after the first Out of Africa, perhaps in Arabia or even a bit north of it, and then spread out along both sides of the Mediterranean from there, and that may all have happened in the late Mesolithic.

    And, for that matter, I wouldn't be at all surprised if really old samples from Europe, actually Mesolithic, and not from Neolithic Hunter Gatherers who moved west very recently, came out carrying ydna "C". What will happen to all of these classifications about who is European then?

    Or is it going to be based on the date of entrance into Europe? "E" and "C" might be first then, along with perhaps "I".

    You're all talking about a cultural concept, i.e. "Europe" that had no meaning in ancient times. These kinds of discussions are fruitless.

    As for E-V13 in particular, it's clear that it is massively "European" in its distribution, and that some sub clade of it made it all the way into the western Mediterranean with the Neolithic. It's also clear from many papers that the extremely high Balkan frequencies stem from a founder effect and then a large expansion in relatively more recent times. As for where the mutation actually arose I don't know and I don't know whether it ever will be known, and, in my opinion, it's also irrelevant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What difference does it make where it arose? Y dna "R" clades probably arose in Iran or Central Asia...the "N" clades arose in Siberia...the "G" clades somewhere in the northern near east, as is the case with the "J" clades. For all the claims about y dna "I", who knows if it split from "IJ" in Europe or somewhere nearby in Anatolia.
    It makes a lot of difference. If we want to be precise we have to make distinction between the two. That's why we are here. When we are not formal, we can say that all people are brothers.

    As for the "E" clades, it seems increasingly clear to me from all the more recent papers, that "E" split from "D" after the first Out of Africa, perhaps in Arabia or even a bit north of it, and then spread out along both sides of the Mediterranean from there, and that may all have happened in the late Mesolithic.

    And, for that matter, I wouldn't be at all surprised if really old samples from Europe, actually Mesolithic, and not from Neolithic Hunter Gatherers who moved west very recently, came out carrying ydna "C". What will happen to all of these classifications about who is European then?

    Or is it going to be based on the date of entrance into Europe? "E" and "C" might be first then, along with perhaps "I".
    If we look at the starting point, we are all Africans, geographically. I was the first to ask Yaan what did he mean with "being European". Since being geographically European doesn't really have to have much meaning, it seems more interesting to classify subclades by their cultural influence?

    You're all talking about a cultural concept, i.e. "Europe" that had no meaning in ancient times. These kinds of discussions are fruitless.
    Of course it had meaning. It wasn't the Celts or Goths that built the pyramids. Hg E is more famous for their contributions in Africa than in Europe.

    As for E-V13 in particular, it's clear that it is massively "European" in its distribution, and that some sub clade of it made it all the way into the western Mediterranean with the Neolithic. It's also clear from many papers that the extremely high Balkan frequencies stem from a founder effect and then a large expansion in relatively more recent times. As for where the mutation actually arose I don't know and I don't know whether it ever will be known, and, in my opinion, it's also irrelevant.
    It is relevant. Relevant for us to make more detailed DNA tree, resolve historic events, movements of the people, map cultural dispersion, languages, etc.. Relevant for todays E-V13 carriers. I guess they'd be happy to know what their ancestors did throughout the history.

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