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Thread: New distribution map of Y-DNA haplogroup E-V13

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

    Arrow New distribution map of Y-DNA haplogroup E-V13

    After E-M81, here is the map of the E-V13 subclade. The distribution of the two haplogroups don't match at all, except in Iberia. E-V13 is clearly linked to the Thessalian Neolithic and its offshoots, such as the Linear Pottery (LBK) culture. It was also part of the Cardium Pottery Culture, as attested by the 7000-year-old E-V13 sample from Catalonia, which belonged to that culture.


    Click to enlarge

    E-V13 also seems to have spread the Neolithic to the Caucasus, Mesopotamia and Iran, but could have bypassed Syria, where it isn't found, except in Assyria and Kurdistan.

    The Kurds have the highest percentage of E-V13 in the Middle East. They also have have high percentages of I2a1b and R1a, which makes me think that they could be descended from the Thracians or a relative tribe from the region of Romania or Bulgaria. Or at least it would mean that a Thracian-related tribe settled in what is now Kurdistan, probably long before the actual Kurds arrived.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    After E-M81, here is the map of the E-V13 subclade. The distribution of the two haplogroups don't match at all, except in Iberia. E-V13 is clearly linked to the Thessalian Neolithic and its offshoots, such as the Linear Pottery (LBK) culture. It was also part of the Cardium Pottery Culture, as attested by the 7000-year-old E-V13 sample from Catalonia, which belonged to that culture.


    Click to enlarge

    E-V13 also seems to have spread the Neolithic to the Caucasus, Mesopotamia and Iran, but could have bypassed Syria, where it isn't found, except in Assyria and Kurdistan.

    The Kurds have the highest percentage of E-V13 in the Middle East. They also have have high percentages of I2a1b and R1a, which makes me think that they could be descended from the Thracians or a relative tribe from the region of Romania or Bulgaria. Or at least it would mean that a Thracian-related tribe settled in what is now Kurdistan, probably long before the actual Kurds arrived.
    Nice, we finally have a map Thanks Maciamo

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Perhaps those papers that proposed a Mesolithic entrance into Europe for E-V13 were correct. They could then have been one of the earliest groups of converts to Neolithic culture. Based on the origin areas of grains, legumes, and domesticated animals, the Neolithic would still have to originate in Asia Minor.

    That's Alawhite territory in Syria that's blank isn't it?

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    Thanks a lot for this map!

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    Thank you for this very interesting map. Y-DNA hg 'E' is a weird haplogroup! Maybe there's some correlation between this hg and the Mediterranean-admixture?

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    That was very quick did u make that map in a day. Since 7,000 year old Neolithic farmer from northern Spain had E1b1b V13 it has been in Europe for a pretty long time. I bet it spread with farming but maybe it came earlier I don't know. It doesn't explain though the high amount of E1b1b in central France 10-15% and 15-20%. It does explain though all of the E1b1b in that streak from Romania to Germany and southern Swedan and Norway. But for southeastern Europe there is still about 10% not belonging to E1b1b V13. Its distribution seems pretty similar to Linear potter culture and Rossen from ur migration maps of Europe. But mainly because of Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 spread and Balto Slavic R1a1a1b1 Z283 spread that has changed the Y DNA in eastern and western Europe in a major way. Who know what the percentages for any haplogroup would have been before that. And those Indo European groups could have changed how popular E1b1b, I2a, and G2a are in certain areas.

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    About I2a1b in Kurds around 20% of their y DNA that defntley has a eastern European origin. Maybe the Cimmerians are the source they invaded that area of the mid east around 2,600-2,800ybp according to Herodtus they lived around Ukriane and Russia north of the black sea were I2a1b is pretty popular. They also may have been a Indo Iranian tribe like Sycthians and wikpedia says at least ruled by Indo Iranian elit. I know there was already a Indo Iranian migration with Medes there but if u look at Tarim mummies, Andronovo culture, Sycthian y DNa and other random Y DNA from Indo Iranians in central asia during bronze and iron age. 16 had R1a1 and one had C. They spread a ton of R1a1a1b2 Z93 into asia that deifntley was the majority of their Y DNA. So if Cimmerimans were Indo Iranians like Sycthians they would have had probably majority R1a1a1b1 Z93. Also about Indo Iranians I believe their were a distinct ethnic group by blood not just language. there is a huge constancy in mtDNA, Y DNA, hair color, and eye color from Andronovo culture all the way to the last Indo Iranian tribes in central asai in 400ad. U would have to look at Kurds R1a subclades I don't know what Bulgaria has I bet not the indo Iranian R1a1a1b Z93 if all Kurdish R1a is under that like in India then it would not have been from Thracians from modern Bulgaria. Like I sad INdo Iranian mtDNa was unique I have heard u say there is some mtDNa from Indo Iranian invasions of India. The way to know is look at Andronovo culture mtDNa Sycthian mtDNA and u will see a trend and figure out if there is any traces in India and other Indo Iranian speakers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Perhaps those papers that proposed a Mesolithic entrance into Europe for E-V13 were correct. They could then have been one of the earliest groups of converts to Neolithic culture. Based on the origin areas of grains, legumes, and domesticated animals, the Neolithic would still have to originate in Asia Minor.
    Indeed very even dispersal, looks ancient and with European origin. Looks like they were involved in farming from the beginning.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    That was very quick did u make that map in a day. Since 7,000 year old Neolithic farmer from northern Spain had E1b1b V13 it has been in Europe for a pretty long time. I bet it spread with farming but maybe it came earlier I don't know. It doesn't explain though the high amount of E1b1b in central France 10-15% and 15-20%. It does explain though all of the E1b1b in that streak from Romania to Germany and southern Swedan and Norway. But for southeastern Europe there is still about 10% not belonging to E1b1b V13. Its distribution seems pretty similar to Linear potter culture and Rossen from ur migration maps of Europe. But mainly because of Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 spread and Balto Slavic R1a1a1b1 Z283 spread that has changed the Y DNA in eastern and western Europe in a major way. Who know what the percentages for any haplogroup would have been before that. And those Indo European groups could have changed how popular E1b1b, I2a, and G2a are in certain areas.
    E-V13,G2a and I2a are European groups. Also there is not 10% of non V13 ,E in South East Europe. In South East Europe E-V12 and E-V22 combined are about 1% and E-M123 is 1-2% and the rest is E-V13.

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    Their European SUBCLADES because they originated there. The very basal root of the branch of the HAPLOGROUP E and G are African and more or less west Asian ,respectively.

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    So basically E-V13 IS European because that particular mutation took place in southeastern Europe, but it's parent just behind it though, E-M78 probably originated somewhere near the Egyptian/Sudan frontier and spread across much of Libya,Egypt, and found in Somalia,Ethiopia regions as well. Then E3b at its most basal is certainly of northeast African origin more or less. Same for G2a; but in this case, it's not EUROPEAN because G2a has a cradle of frequency near Georgia/Turkey/Azerbaijan; leading me to believe it infiltrated Mediterranean Europe from there some 10,000-15,000 years ago during the Neolithic period, although this lineage was not propulsed to a sort of "greatness" as the global spread of the J and E3b frequencies would. G1 though, the Base of G seems to have higher diversity/age in Iran, leading me to believe this is ultimately, where this haplogroup comes from.

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    these associations neolithic groupings, what do they represent , ?
    The founding of the marker or where the marker was in neolithic times.?
    If the later, didn't south Yamna have 10% + of T for dagestan on the caspian sea plus another 7% for North ossetian area or am I too late.

    Maykop had G2a4...one group headed for the alps and another to greece

    What about Lezkins and azeri of the Kura-Araxes 9% L , 8% T, and J

    and what is SOPOT?
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Their European SUBCLADES because they originated there. The very basal root of the branch of the HAPLOGROUP E and G are African and more or less west Asian ,respectively.
    E-V13 100% European, parent from North East Africa
    G2a(the one observed in Europe) 100% European parent from Kavkaz.
    I2a 100% European, parent the most European haplogrouop in the wolrd.
    Germanic and Celtic R1b 100% European, parent from Anatolia, great parent from Central Asia!
    I will fight R1b lies, insults and propaganda to the end.
    End of discussion :)

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    Easy man. There is no evidence that E-V13 is European.
    Everything suggest so, but until other possibilities are dismissed, it's not appropriate to say that something is 100 % true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    Easy man. There is no evidence that E-V13 is European.
    Everything suggest so, but until other possibilities are dismissed, it's not appropriate to say that something is 100 % true.
    Never easy with brainwashing and propaganda. Man if E-V13 is not European R1b(Germanic and Celtic) is not European.End of story!R1b propaganda would be exposed, crushed and stopped!

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    Well, we should define what being European means. Are we talking about where the mutation occurred or where is the highest distribution.
    It's also useful to consider whether some autosomal mutations have made Hg subclades more distant along the vertical line than in horizontal?

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    Mutation occuered in Europe and its highest distribution is in Europe. End of story :)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    For E-V13? But we have no proof of that, it could have happened anywhere in Africa or Asia.
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-RFDBC3MrhR...ogeography.jpg

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    What difference does it make where it arose? Y dna "R" clades probably arose in Iran or Central Asia...the "N" clades arose in Siberia...the "G" clades somewhere in the northern near east, as is the case with the "J" clades. For all the claims about y dna "I", who knows if it split from "IJ" in Europe or somewhere nearby in Anatolia.

    As for the "E" clades, it seems increasingly clear to me from all the more recent papers, that "E" split from "D" after the first Out of Africa, perhaps in Arabia or even a bit north of it, and then spread out along both sides of the Mediterranean from there, and that may all have happened in the late Mesolithic.

    And, for that matter, I wouldn't be at all surprised if really old samples from Europe, actually Mesolithic, and not from Neolithic Hunter Gatherers who moved west very recently, came out carrying ydna "C". What will happen to all of these classifications about who is European then?

    Or is it going to be based on the date of entrance into Europe? "E" and "C" might be first then, along with perhaps "I".

    You're all talking about a cultural concept, i.e. "Europe" that had no meaning in ancient times. These kinds of discussions are fruitless.

    As for E-V13 in particular, it's clear that it is massively "European" in its distribution, and that some sub clade of it made it all the way into the western Mediterranean with the Neolithic. It's also clear from many papers that the extremely high Balkan frequencies stem from a founder effect and then a large expansion in relatively more recent times. As for where the mutation actually arose I don't know and I don't know whether it ever will be known, and, in my opinion, it's also irrelevant.

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    J probably took place near the southern Levantine regions, G on the central Iranian plateau

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    J probably took place near the southern Levantine regions, G on the central Iranian plateau
    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    J probably took place near the southern Levantine regions, G on the central Iranian plateau
    Variance and phylogeny both indicate that y dna "J" originated in the northern near East, perhaps near the Taurus mountains. S

    Even Wiki gets this one right. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M267

    See also, Chiaroni et al.2009
    Chiaroni 2009 proposed that J-P58 (that they refer to as J1e) might have first dispersed during the Pre-Pottery Neolithic B period, "from a geographical zone, including northeast Syria, northern Iraq and eastern Turkey...)

    Some clades, agriculturalists, remained, or moved with the Neolithic expansions into Europe, but the herders would have moved south and into more arid areas generally.

    The specific clade in Arabia is younger and massively expanded after a founder effect.

    Of course, there were then further migrations back north with the Islamic expansions.

    See also, Chiaroni et al 2010, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987219/

    or even the genetics page here at Eupedia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Variance and phylogeny both indicate that y dna "J" originated in the northern near East, perhaps near the Taurus mountains. S

    Even Wiki gets this one right. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M267

    See also, Chiaroni et al.2009
    Chiaroni 2009 proposed that J-P58 (that they refer to as J1e) might have first dispersed during the Pre-Pottery Neolithic B period, "from a geographical zone, including northeast Syria, northern Iraq and eastern Turkey...)

    Some clades, agriculturalists, remained, or moved with the Neolithic expansions into Europe, but the herders would have moved south and into more arid areas generally.

    The specific clade in Arabia is younger and massively expanded after a founder effect.

    Of course, there were then further migrations back north with the Islamic expansions.

    See also, Chiaroni et al 2010, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987219/

    or even the genetics page here at Eupedia.
    thanks for interesting links
    I' m OK for Y-J story, for I know now

    concerning origin of HGs, every SNP is linked to its upstream SNP, and place of origin could say very little, what would count is the place of developpement of the carriers of the SNP and the duration of settlement in situ, in some way ...
    sometimes (very often) a new population was born on the association of two (or more) SNPs ad HGs remote one from the other, but concurring by osmosis, selection,and life difficulties to a new population?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What difference does it make where it arose? Y dna "R" clades probably arose in Iran or Central Asia...the "N" clades arose in Siberia...the "G" clades somewhere in the northern near east, as is the case with the "J" clades. For all the claims about y dna "I", who knows if it split from "IJ" in Europe or somewhere nearby in Anatolia.
    It makes a lot of difference. If we want to be precise we have to make distinction between the two. That's why we are here. When we are not formal, we can say that all people are brothers.

    As for the "E" clades, it seems increasingly clear to me from all the more recent papers, that "E" split from "D" after the first Out of Africa, perhaps in Arabia or even a bit north of it, and then spread out along both sides of the Mediterranean from there, and that may all have happened in the late Mesolithic.

    And, for that matter, I wouldn't be at all surprised if really old samples from Europe, actually Mesolithic, and not from Neolithic Hunter Gatherers who moved west very recently, came out carrying ydna "C". What will happen to all of these classifications about who is European then?

    Or is it going to be based on the date of entrance into Europe? "E" and "C" might be first then, along with perhaps "I".
    If we look at the starting point, we are all Africans, geographically. I was the first to ask Yaan what did he mean with "being European". Since being geographically European doesn't really have to have much meaning, it seems more interesting to classify subclades by their cultural influence?

    You're all talking about a cultural concept, i.e. "Europe" that had no meaning in ancient times. These kinds of discussions are fruitless.
    Of course it had meaning. It wasn't the Celts or Goths that built the pyramids. Hg E is more famous for their contributions in Africa than in Europe.

    As for E-V13 in particular, it's clear that it is massively "European" in its distribution, and that some sub clade of it made it all the way into the western Mediterranean with the Neolithic. It's also clear from many papers that the extremely high Balkan frequencies stem from a founder effect and then a large expansion in relatively more recent times. As for where the mutation actually arose I don't know and I don't know whether it ever will be known, and, in my opinion, it's also irrelevant.
    It is relevant. Relevant for us to make more detailed DNA tree, resolve historic events, movements of the people, map cultural dispersion, languages, etc.. Relevant for todays E-V13 carriers. I guess they'd be happy to know what their ancestors did throughout the history.

  24. #24
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    Well everyone knows J2 took place in northern Syria/ southern turkey

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    Iberia's spread of E3b frequencies is also interesting, with a 33% peak in northwestern Spain's Galicia region. Frequencies are about 15-20% across Portugal. There's another 27% peak in the southeast of Spain. As for hg J, it peaks in southern Spain/Portugal at only 15-18% of male lineages.

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