New distribution map of haplogroup E-M123

[albanopolis]

I thought Pelasgian was a general term to name ancient inhabitants of Greece and surrounding islands? It is not a name of nationality or ethnicity. Pre Dorian, pre Hellenic inhabitants. Sort of barbarians in contrast with civilized Greeks of antiquity.

The Albanian historians maintain the theory that Pellasgians were all over Southern Europe. There is linguistic evidence about it. I heard archaeologists complain that finding evidence of it has proven difficult in terms of artifacts at least in Albania. Or probably they are not looking in the right place. But given that different Hellen historians of the time, in a span of at least 1500 consecutive yrs there is no reason of doubting it.

[Yetos]

The Albanian historians maintain the theory that Pellasgians were all over Southern Europe. There is linguistic evidence about it. I heard archaeologists complain that finding evidence of it has proven difficult in terms of artifacts at least in Albania. Or probably they are not looking in the right place. But given that different Hellen historians of the time, in a span of at least 1500 consecutive yrs there is no reason of doubting it.

link of an Albanian Historian?

[LeBrok]

The Albanian historians maintain the theory that Pellasgians were all over Southern Europe. There is linguistic evidence about it. I heard archaeologists complain that finding evidence of it has proven difficult in terms of artifacts at least in Albania. Or probably they are not looking in the right place. But given that different Hellen historians of the time, in a span of at least 1500 consecutive yrs there is no reason of doubting it.

I don't doubt there were ancient people who Greeks referred to as Pelasgians. However it is a very difficult (impossible) to determine which culture exactly Greeks historians meant. Without any written records it was hard for these historians to be exact in their statements after hundred or thousands of years. I'm sure you will find contradictory records among historians about Pelasgians, right?
You know how inaccurate human memory is?

[Valerius]

I want to ask - if the Phoenicians brought M34 to Europe who brought M123* (m34 negative)?

[ItsBeenAwhile]

With the recent refinement and standardization of Y-E's subgroups down from E-M123>E-M34>E-L29>E-L29* & E-M136, have there been any new distribution maps produced using these separate groups?

[AbdoNumen]

Maciamo, how many samples is the map based on? Is there a plan to update it soon, as 4 years have passed since it was released?

[GSardar]

Haplogroup E-M123 in Kurdistan can be from Akkadians, Assyrians, Chaldeans or Jews.
It's even possible that the 10 lost tribes of Israel settled down in Kurdistan!

My family on my father's side is Kurdish, all from Kurdistan of Iraq and Iran, and I just learned my dad is the E-M123 haplogroup. I don't know much about this, and this is one of the first pages I've looked at, so I love seeing the connections. :)

[Khazar]

Very nice, but I think it is very misleading considering the depopulation of everyone the Nazis thought "looked Jewish" in the 2nd Reich area.

I think E-M123 is pretty clearly Phoenician and probably spread with the Romans too. I have a suggestion for the presence of E-M123 across Ukraine could be from Akatzir Cursarioi or from Lithuanian Palemonids from Belarussia. I recommend looking at yfull.com for more up to date E-M123 results. Some branches e.g. yfull.com/tree/E-Y6938/ are clearly native to the Lithuanian Grand-Duch area. Also should remember to include Gagauzia and presence in indigenous Crimean populations, Taman and the Caucasus?

Time for an update perhaps?

[kingjohn]

very interesting

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers....act_id=3346985


i got the table one of the scytian/ sarmatian remains from south ural was
E-PF6746
this is one of the e-m84 branches fox
that is so cool:)
he was probably and earlier saka who migrated north and absorbed by the r1a sarmatians
what intresting is that another paper found e-m123* among saka from north east kazachstan

https://i.imgur.com/2UNg2Nq.png

https://i.imgur.com/qdS3ZKd.png

[kingjohn]

from passa e1b1b1 great map :)
the e-m84 eastern scytian dude from the same research in south ural

https://i.imgur.com/SlhhnZh.png

Scythian MJ40 (ScySar_SU) - E-PF6746
(this branch is under e-m84 )

[brittney.smith]

I thought about it too. J1 and E-M123 are both typical of Southwest Asia, so it makes sense. In Europe their distribution match especially well in Greece, Italy, France, Germany and Hungary.

[wandering_amorite]

Very nice, but I think it is very misleading considering the depopulation of everyone the Nazis thought "looked Jewish" in the 2nd Reich area.

I think E-M123 is pretty clearly Phoenician and probably spread with the Romans too. I have a suggestion for the presence of E-M123 across Ukraine could be from Akatzir Cursarioi or from Lithuanian Palemonids from Belarussia. I recommend looking at yfull.com for more up to date E-M123 results. Some branches e.g. yfull.com/tree/E-Y6938/ are clearly native to the Lithuanian Grand-Duch area. Also should remember to include Gagauzia and presence in indigenous Crimean populations, Taman and the Caucasus?

Time for an update perhaps?

Phoenician and native Balto-Slavic ... but not Jewish?

Y6938 is Ashkenazi, with ultimate Levantine origins. It split ca. 400 CE from Y102667, which includes a Libyan Jew, a Turkish/Tunisian Jew, 3 New World Hispanics, and most likely an Algerian Jew. The distribution you're looking at is simply the pattern of Ashkenazi settlement in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

[kingjohn]

from the other Scythian paper

e-m84 branch in 400 bc south ural this could be a migration from bmac direction up north to the steppe
and absorbed by r1a and Q tribes in the steppe
i am talking about e-m84 not e-m123* that might came from the north and we see him in DA19 saka and in north pakistan swat valley remains

source:

https://www.cell.com/current-biology/ful...fw9pxzXa6A

full list of y haplogroups and mtdna from scytian and other remains from the paper

mtDNA Y-DNA
MJ-06 Ukr_BA 0.184 XX H2a1
MJ-09 Ukr_BA 0.228 XX H13a2c
MJ-08 ר 0.138 XX T2a1b1a
MJ-12 Cimmerians 0.299 XX H35
MJ-31 Cimmerians 0.217 XY U5a1b1 R1a-Z645
MJ-32 Cimmerians 0.296 XY U2e2 R1a2c-B111
MJ-13 Scy_Ukr 0.265 XX H11b1
MJ-14 Scy_Uk ZU_Yr
Za 0.166 XY U2e2 R1a-M417
MJ-16 Scy_Ukr 0.282 XY T2b J2a8-B437
MJ-33 Scy_Ukr 0.078 XY U5a2a2 R1a-M417
MJ-34 Scy_Ukr 0.5 XY W3a1 R1a2-Z93
MJ-35 Scy_Ukr 0.149 XY X4 Q1c-L332
MJ-46 Scy_Ukr 0.173 XX J1d6
MJ-47 Scy_Ukr 0.073 XX T2
MJ-19 Chern 0.21 XX H1n6
MJ-36 Chern 0.02 XX H1c
MJ-37 Chern 0.14 XX T2g1
MJ-38 Sar_Cau 0.092 XY W Q1c-L332
LS-13 ScySar_SU 0.46 XY W3a R1a1e-CTS1123
MJ-39 ScyS4_AaU-1 Z645
MJ-40 ScySar_SU 0.036 XY U5a2 + 16,294 E2b1-PF6746
MJ-41 ScySar_SU 0.529 XX U5b2a1a2
MJ-42 ScySar_SU 0.525 XY T1a1d R1a-Z645
MJ-43 ScySar_SU 0.456 XX C1E
MJ-44 ScySar_SU 0.717 XX U5b2a1a1
MJ-56 ScySar_SU 0.301 XX U5b2c
MJ-51 Scy_Kaz 0.085 XY U5a1f1 R1a-M198
MJ-52 Scy_Kaz 0.092 XY A23 J1b-P58 (3/10)
MJ-53 Scy_Kaz 0.022 XY? U5b2b ​​R1-?
MJ-54 Scy_Kaz 0.027 XX F2

[kingjohn]

from this paper:
https://static-content.springer.com/...MOESM1_ESM.pdf
this individual from early medieval sardinia
i wish we knew farther if he is m123 , m34 or even downstream clades like e-m84 or e-L791
what we know for sure is that he was e-z830 positive
https://yfull.com/arch-3.10/tree/E1b1b1b2/
GC4 (Sardinia_EarlyMedieval, I12221). Bone, C14 dated to 892-990 calCE (1100±20 BP, PSUAMS-6157).
https://i.imgur.com/QsoUWdl.png

(From passa map

https://i.imgur.com/asAeg1Q.png

appricate his work but this individual was e-z830 not only z827 as he was positive for CTS11781 one of e-z830 equivalent anyway better than nothing kudos for his work
some information on him from autosomal point:
Early Medieval Sardinian (I12221):The most recent individual in our dataset (892-990 calCE) was consistent with forming a cladewith the two Late Antiquity Sardinians, and 6 other individuals from the other ancient Sardiniangroups (Supplementary Table 13). However, these results must be viewed with caution because ofthe low coverage of some of the individuals involved leading to small numbers of SNPs covered inboth individuals being compared (the test individual, I12221, has 78437 SNP covered at least once)(Supplementary Data 1). Similar limitations due to small SNP counts are reflected in Fig. 3 of themain manuscript for the low-coverage Sicily_Chalcolithic4936 (23600 SNPs) and Sicily_Chalcolithic(40252 SNPs) individuals, whose evidence of forming a clade with the majority of the otheranalyzed individuals plausibly just reflects limited data and thus limited statistical resolution
source: page 28

[kingjohn]

some e-m84 branches
in arabia levant

https://i.imgur.com/MPobZVE.png

[TaktikatEMalet]

The lack of this in balkans has to rule out phoenician?

The lack of this in many regions of Europe and balkans again maybe rules out being Jewish too, didn't Jews settle in some of those regions where e-m123 is nonexistent/too small? But then again, nazis wiped out a lot of them so difficult to assess so could be Jewish

If you look at the j1 map, it is quite similar. Maybe easy to assume most e-m123 came from middle east & Arabian peninsula in the early muslim conquests of North Africa, Spain/Portugal and South Italy

Can someone compare the tmrca's of the Spanish and Italian e-m123

[kingjohn]

The lack of this in balkans has to rule out phoenician
The lack of this in many regions of Europe and balkans again maybe rules out being Jewish too, didn't Jews settle in some of those regions where e-m123 is nonexistent/too small? But then again, nazis wiped out a lot of them so difficult to assess
If you look at the j1 map, it is quite similar. You can assume most e-m123 came from middle east & Arabian peninsula in the early muslim conquests of North Africa, Spain/Portugal and South Italy
Can someone compare the tmrca's of the Spanish and Italian e-m123

You tear my hourt
I do believe that the nazis reduced the % of e-m123-m34 clade
In europe.....
In europe some branches of e- m34
Are mainly in south italy and sicily.....
They could arrived with muslims
Or more likely in roman period and late antiquity
There is also a e-m123 pocket in oristano
Sardinia....
Some jews were expeled by emperor tiberius in the year 19Ad
To sardinia....
So in sardinia could be roman jews, or pheonicians carthagenians....

P.s
e-m123 is present in lebanon 4-5% and in cyprus 10%
E-m123* ( without m34 mutation) is much older in europe iron age/ bronze age or even chl.
But only time can tell.
Acording to yfull the age of e-m34 in italy and iberia is
Much older but i take it with grain salt
Need to see it back up with ancient dna to believe

[TaktikatEMalet]

You tear my hourt
I do believe that the nazis reduced the % of e-m123-m34 clade
In europe.....
In europe some branches of e- m34
Are mainly in south italy and sicily.....
They could arrived with muslims
Or more likely in roman period and late antiquity
There is also a e-m123 pocket in oristano
Sardinia....
Some jews were expeled by emperor tiberius in the year 19Ad
To sardinia....
So in sardinia could be roman jews, or pheonicians carthagenians....

P.s
e-m123 is present in lebanon 4-5% and in cyprus 10%
E-m123* ( without m34 mutation) is much older in europe iron age/ bronze age or even chl.
But only time can tell.
Acording to yfull the age of e-m34 in italy and iberia is
Much older but i take it with grain salt
Need to see it back up with ancient dna to believe

If e-m123 existed in Italy that long ago then it probably rules out it being Muslim expansion in South italy

Sardinia has history with phoenicians so if you can find some links with their y dna and lebanese y dna then it's probably phoenician

[kingjohn]

Yes
Sardinia had pheonician influence
I think another branch of e1b1b ( not e- m34)
the e- m81 branch is probably carthegenian in sardinia😉

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A683/

[kingjohn]

Very nice, but I think it is very misleading considering the depopulation of everyone the Nazis thought "looked Jewish" in the 2nd Reich area.
I think E-M123 is pretty clearly Phoenician and probably spread with the Romans too. I have a suggestion for the presence of E-M123 across Ukraine could be from Akatzir Cursarioi or from Lithuanian Palemonids from Belarussia. I recommend looking at yfull.com for more up to date E-M123 results. Some branches e.g. yfull.com/tree/E-Y6938/ are clearly native to the Lithuanian Grand-Duch area. Also should remember to include Gagauzia and presence in indigenous Crimean populations, Taman and the Caucasus?
Time for an update perhaps?

that is correct
there are some russian samples ( chuvash , tatar )
they belong to the E-L791 sub branches
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y179036/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y152161/

p.s
i also reading the russian dna forum
and there are few cases of mishar tatars who belong to those branches
under E-L791
E-m123 was found in kongaz gagauze 4.2%
and also in south moldova kharasani 4.2%
https://i.imgur.com/QmCFNRb.png

https://i.imgur.com/sNcKaSN.jpg


p.s
But we don' t know if they are: e-m123*, e-m34, E-L791, e- m84
i say we don't know the final branch
because in moldova was found a member of e-m123*( PF4428)
"Another E-M123* (PF4428) was found in Moldavia."
source: e3b haplozone
http://community.haplozone.net/index.php?topic=4370.45

[kingjohn]

You tear my hourt
I do believe that the nazis reduced the % of e-m123-m34 clade
In europe.....
In europe some branches of e- m34
Are mainly in south italy and sicily.....
They could arrived with muslims
Or more likely in roman period and late antiquity
There is also a e-m123 pocket in oristano
Sardinia....
Some jews were expeled by emperor tiberius in the year 19Ad
To sardinia....
So in sardinia could be roman jews, or pheonicians carthagenians....

P.s
e-m123 is present in lebanon 4-5% and in cyprus 10%
E-m123* ( without m34 mutation) is much older in europe iron age/ bronze age or even chl.
But only time can tell.
Acording to yfull the age of e-m34 in italy and iberia is
Much older but i take it with grain salt
Need to see it back up with ancient dna to believe

The complex genetic structure of Cyprus

Figure 1 presents the phylogenetic relationships and frequencies of the Y-chromosome lineages detected in the six districts of Cyprus. Like other populations in Anatolia and Lebanon, Cyprus exhibits a high level of haplogroup J2-M172 related diversity. J2a-M410 is the dominant Y-chromosome lineage, constituting 26.0 % of the overall Cypriot samples. J2b-M12/M102 splits into mainly J2b-M205 (5.9 %), frequent in Southern Levant (Additional file 5: Figure S2), and J2b-M241 (0.6 %), most frequent in Greece and the Balkans [20, 35]. Overall, the E-M35 haplogroup totals to 23.1 % and contains various E-M78 sub-haplogroups including E-V13 (7.3 %) that is common in Greece [10, 18, 35] and E-V22 (3.5 %), that is frequent in Egypt [10] and Sudan [49]. Another E-M35 related haplogroup, E-M34, previously reported in Asia Minor [31], Southern Levant [50, 51], and the Balkans [35] also was observed in Cyprus (10.3 %).

source:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4750176/

[kingjohn]

pribislav anlaysed ART015-028 3369-3110 BC Arslantepe, Turkey; Arslantepe_LC

https://i.imgur.com/1K2HO0t.png

and he is : E-CTS9608
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS9608/



from paper:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...92867420305092
Someone uploaded him to yfull
https://yfull.com/tree/E-CTS9608/


p.s
i didn't saw that he analysed ETM010
for farther calls
so this sample is still in the E-L795 level

[kingjohn]

a sample from late viking age named VK474 from gotland dated to 975AD who apperntly was 98% polish like autosomaly speaking
belonged to e-L791 https://i.imgur.com/GrKJ83z.png

from people who looked in this sample bam file it probably belonged to E-Y4971
E-L791 > Y4971 ( there is a non-jewish pole in this branch in yfull)

https://yfull.com/tree/E-Y4971*/
to be sure i say we wait for pribislav anlaysis
but for sure we know he was E-L791
and autosomally speaking was polish like someone uploaded his autosomal to gedmatch don't know the kit number
his eurogenes k13

https://i.imgur.com/8pblhLq.png


p.s
the source of this sample from this paper:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2688-8
he was uploaded to yfull ( anlaysis in progress)

https://yfull.com/tree/E-Y4971/

[kingjohn]

so pribislav apperntly did anlaysed the ETM010 individual

ETM010 ;2500-2000 BC;Ebla;Syria_EMBA;E-M84>>>CTS9608 (xY179279,BY79385,CTS2633,PF6391,Y84338,BY10898)

https://i.imgur.com/XDYzWMQ.png

https://yfull.com/tree/E-CTS9608/



from paper:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...92867420305092


p.s
it look that most of the middle eastern ancient remains untill now
who belonged to e-m84 are mostly of the E-PF6751 branch

[Joey37]

Judging from the other members of the E-Y4971 branch, VK474 may be descended from a real-life version of the Thirteenth Warrior, albeit through a North Slavic milieu.