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Thread: New distribution map of haplogroup E-M123

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Arrow New distribution map of haplogroup E-M123

    To complete the series of main E1b1b subclades after E-V13 and E-M81, here is the map of E-M123, the most Middle Eastern of the three clades.



    I admit that I am a bit at a loss regarding its origin in Europe. M123 doesn't appear to be related to Neolithic cultures in the Balkans, which are almost exclusively E-V13 within haplogroup E. All I can say is that it is found at higher frequencies in places colonised by the Phoenicians (over 10% in Ibiza and in parts of Sicily) and that it may have been spread to Western Europe by the Romans and the Jews. Its distribution in Britain matches quite well the main Roman cities, roughly a triangle between London, Chester/Manchester and Bristol. It's also been found in southern Scotland. Unfortunately I have no data for the Latium in Italy, but the highest percentage appears to be in Campania (based on a small sample size). It was probably brought to Italy by the Etruscans from Anatolia.

    The hotspot in Spanish Extremadura may have something to do with the major Roman colony of Merida. But that alone wouldn't explain the overall higher frequency in western Iberia, mimicking those of E-M81 and E-V13. Western Iberia is really special in having a lot of the three main E1b1b subclades, despite the fact that the three have very different distributions.
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Grate map!
    I doubt that M123 was brought by Etruscans, because it’s rarer in their homeland (Tuscany) then in areas south and east from it.
    Notice that only one out of 204 Kashubians of northern Poland was found to be M123 according Rebala et al. 2012, and zero out of 64 according Wozniak et al. 2010. It means that frequency in Kashubians is lower than 0,5%( 1/204=0,49%, 1/268=0,37%).

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    I wouldn't trust so much on modern frequencies to contect with ancient cultures because is much has changed deifntley since the Neolithic age. Some areas changed more which would lower their amount of Y DNA spread in the Neolithic. Maybe Indo Europeans who conquered spread native Y DNA like with i2a2a M223 and I1 a lot was spread by Germanic tribes. The Romans may have had a part in spreading E1b1b M123. Kind of how J2 is higher in southern England which could be because of Rome. Why didn't Rome spread any R1b S28 that doesn't make sense to me I am not sure if there is any Y DNa to say their empire spread for sure exceot maybe some E1b1b, J1, and J2. The higher amount of E1b1b in central France I guess is a lot of different subclades with probably did not come all together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matbir View Post
    Grate map!
    I doubt that M123 was brought by Etruscans, because it’s rarer in their homeland (Tuscany) then in areas south and east from it.
    Notice that only one out of 204 Kashubians of northern Poland was found to be M123 according Rebala et al. 2012, and zero out of 64 according Wozniak et al. 2010. It means that frequency in Kashubians is lower than 0,5%( 1/204=0,49%, 1/268=0,37%).
    E-M123 was only tested in fairly recent studies (last 4 years) so the samples I could use for Tuscany are limited to the Boattini et al. study, which tested only the northern and southern extremes of Tuscany (Massa/Pistoia and Grosseto/Siena). M123 was only found in the south because the north is so overwhelmingly R1b, which I doubt is a reflection of the ancient Etruscans. However ancient Etruria spread all the way north to Veneto, where M123 is quite high (2.5%).

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    Quote Originally Posted by matbir View Post
    Grate map!
    I doubt that M123 was brought by Etruscans, because it’s rarer in their homeland (Tuscany) then in areas south and east from it.
    Notice that only one out of 204 Kashubians of northern Poland was found to be M123 according Rebala et al. 2012, and zero out of 64 according Wozniak et al. 2010. It means that frequency in Kashubians is lower than 0,5%( 1/204=0,49%, 1/268=0,37%).
    E-M123 was only tested in fairly recent studies (last 4 years) so the samples I could use for Tuscany are limited to the Boattini et al. study, which tested only the northern and southern extremes of Tuscany (Massa/Pistoia and Grosseto/Siena). M123 was only found in the south because the north is so overwhelmingly R1b, which I doubt is a reflection of the ancient Etruscans. However ancient Etruria spread all the way north to Veneto, where M123 is quite high (2.5%).

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It reminds me distribution of J1.




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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    It reminds me distribution of J1.




    You're right; it does. I'd have to check the studies, but I think most of European J1 is of the non-Arabian variety, isn't it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    It reminds me distribution of J1.
    I thought about it too. J1 and E-M123 are both typical of Southwest Asia, so it makes sense. In Europe their distribution match especially well in Greece, Italy, France, Germany and Hungary. What is especially interesting about Hungary is that most of its J1 is the Southwest Asian J1-P58 variety, not the other subclades linked to the Neolithic diffusion of agriculture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    It reminds me distribution of J1.
    I thought about it too. J1 and E-M123 are both typical of Southwest Asia, so it makes sense. In Europe their distribution match especially well in Greece, Italy, France, Germany and Hungary. What is especially interesting about Hungary is that most of its J1 is the Southwest Asian J1-P58 variety (according to the 188 samples tested by Martinez-Cruz et al. 2012), not the other subclades linked to the Neolithic diffusion of agriculture.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    just to clarify Massa, it was historically always ligurian lands and ligurian people until Mussolini placed it under Tuscany less than 100 years ago.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

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    That region of northwestern Tuscany has some of Italy's highest R1b frequencies with 70-80%, Tuscany is also were U-152 peaks in Italy along with the Northwest Cuneo region and the north-central Brescia regions of Italy. (40-50% u152 in those regions.) same for theNorthwest Tuscany region but there's a massive R1b total.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    To complete the series of main E1b1b subclades after E-V13 and E-M81, here is the map of E-M123, the most Middle Eastern of the three clades.



    I admit that I am a bit at a loss regarding its origin in Europe. M123 doesn't appear to be related to Neolithic cultures in the Balkans, which are almost exclusively E-V13 within haplogroup E. All I can say is that it is found at higher frequencies in places colonised by the Phoenicians (over 10% in Ibiza and in parts of Sicily) and that it may have been spread to Western Europe by the Romans and the Jews. Its distribution in Britain matches quite well the main Roman cities, roughly a triangle between London, Chester/Manchester and Bristol. It's also been found in southern Scotland. Unfortunately I have no data for the Latium in Italy, but the highest percentage appears to be in Campania (based on a small sample size). It was probably brought to Italy by the Etruscans from Anatolia.

    The hotspot in Spanish Extremadura may have something to do with the major Roman colony of Merida. But that alone wouldn't explain the overall higher frequency in western Iberia, mimicking those of E-M81 and E-V13. Western Iberia is really special in having a lot of the three main E1b1b subclades, despite the fact that the three have very different distributions.
    IMO, the maps major hotspots reflect, the Kurds, the orignial Hebrew homeland of sinai area before they moved North and the original homeland of the Armenians of cicilia ( if they where armenians at all )

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    1 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    To complete the series of main E1b1b subclades after E-V13 and E-M81, here is the map of E-M123, the most Middle Eastern of the three clades.



    I admit that I am a bit at a loss regarding its origin in Europe. M123 doesn't appear to be related to Neolithic cultures in the Balkans, which are almost exclusively E-V13 within haplogroup E. All I can say is that it is found at higher frequencies in places colonised by the Phoenicians (over 10% in Ibiza and in parts of Sicily) and that it may have been spread to Western Europe by the Romans and the Jews. Its distribution in Britain matches quite well the main Roman cities, roughly a triangle between London, Chester/Manchester and Bristol. It's also been found in southern Scotland. Unfortunately I have no data for the Latium in Italy, but the highest percentage appears to be in Campania (based on a small sample size). It was probably brought to Italy by the Etruscans from Anatolia.

    The hotspot in Spanish Extremadura may have something to do with the major Roman colony of Merida. But that alone wouldn't explain the overall higher frequency in western Iberia, mimicking those of E-M81 and E-V13. Western Iberia is really special in having a lot of the three main E1b1b subclades, despite the fact that the three have very different distributions.
    Is that hotspot in Calabria from the Semino 2004 study? I believe that was taken from a community of Albanians in Cosenza...Arbereshe or not, I don't recall. I'll have to check. If that's the case, I'm very surprised that it doesn't show up in higher numbers in Albanians.

    I think that 11% in Sicily (which is an anomaly since island wide it seems to be just under 5%), is from Piazza Armerina, so that may be a founder effect of some kind. It's strange, because that is a "Lombard" city founded by Frederick II and peopled mainly by settlers from Piacenza. Some people there still speak a Gallic-Italian dialect. Before that, the area was part of a Greek colony, a sub-colony, if you will, of Gela on the southern Sicilian coast, which itself had ties to Siracusa on the south eastern coast. http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piazza_Armerina

    Naples, of course, also had Greek ties. As does the Ionian coast of Calabria, so I don't know if it moved from the Calabresi into that Albanian community or vice versa.

    Before looking at this, I would have bet on a link with Semitic speakers, because it is so high in Oman, and because the Jewish clades fall under this, but now I really wouldn't venture an opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    To complete the series of main E1b1b subclades after E-V13 and E-M81, here is the map of E-M123, the most Middle Eastern of the three clades.


    Thanks again Maciamo. This is a very interesting map. Although I think there is less of this haplogroup E-M123 among Kurds than you show us, around 4-5%. Also, Kurds don’t have that much of hg. E in general. I do believe that haplogroup E-M123 is some kind of a Semitic haplogroup. I think there’s a correlation between this marker and Jews, Chaldeans and Assyrians

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    IMO, the maps major hotspots reflect, the Kurds, the orignial Hebrew homeland of sinai area before they moved North and the original homeland of the Armenians of cicilia ( if they where armenians at all )
    Haplogroup E-M123 in Kurdistan can be from Akkadians, Assyrians, Chaldeans or Jews.
    It's even possible that the 10 lost tribes of Israel settled down in Kurdistan!

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    There are only m84 and l792 thise small snps

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    Hello I am new to forum. I am of this haplogroup. I would like to know where it originated? Its seams to me that it was spread during the Roman area when Israel was dismantled. I feel that E-M123 is a haplogroup that is found in all Jewish linages. My Parents came into the US in 1947 after WW2, from Spain. I know our history there, it does far back, almost 1100 years in Spain. I just got my results and found to be E-M123 and K1 on my mothers side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Levi999 View Post
    Hello I am new to forum. I am of this haplogroup. I would like to know where it originated? Its seams to me that it was spread during the Roman area when Israel was dismantled. I feel that E-M123 is a haplogroup that is found in all Jewish linages. My Parents came into the US in 1947 after WW2, from Spain. I know our history there, it does far back, almost 1100 years in Spain. I just got my results and found to be E-M123 and K1 on my mothers side.
    Welcome to Eupedia Levi999.
    Jewish people are known to trade, travel and settle in faraway lands way before dismantling of Israel. Understandable many Jews were left behind in Israel and your ancestors could spread and travel freely within Muslim Empire to Spain around 900 AD.

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    Looks like the Pelasgians may have been more than legend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by E-M34 View Post
    Looks like the Pelasgians may have been more than legend.
    no and since you carry the flag of israel you know about them, they are also written in Hebrew in Izekhiel's book (if remember correct, or Ieremiah).
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-M34 View Post
    Looks like the Pelasgians may have been more than legend.
    Who said Pelasgians were a legend? Most prominent Hellen authors of antiquity wrote about them. Homer mentioned them in "Iliad". They have a 2000 yrs written history. They lived side by side, in separate villages all over Greece for 2000 yrs, speaking a barbaric language and fighting alongside Hellenes, until they were absorbed at 1500 BC. They also inhabited the area that includes Albania, Bosnia, Croatia South and central Italy. So, The Pellasgian layer is a common denominator of all south Europe.

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    We have also a written records about existence of dragons in Medieval Europe, however archaeological proofs never materialized.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    We have also a written records about existence of dragons in Medieval Europe, however archaeological proofs never materialized.
    There is linguistic evidence of their presence. The name Larissa (a town in Greece) or Lisssus( Town in Albania). Athens is another one or Zeus is thought to have Pellasgian ORIGIN. As far as artifacts are not numerous but it could be that their artifacts were incorporated as Greek artifacts. But their presence is well documented so there is no reason to question it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by albanopolis View Post
    There is linguistic evidence of their presence. The name Larissa (a town in Greece) or Lisssus( Town in Albania). Athens is another one or Zeus is thought to have Pellasgian ORIGIN. As far as artifacts are not numerous but it could be that their artifacts were incorporated as Greek artifacts. But their presence is well documented so there is no reason to question it.
    I thought Pelasgian was a general term to name ancient inhabitants of Greece and surrounding islands? It is not a name of nationality or ethnicity. Pre Dorian, pre Hellenic inhabitants. Sort of barbarians in contrast with civilized Greeks of antiquity.

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    sorry
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