New map of haplogroup J2b (M102)

[Maciamo]

After E-V13 it was only natural that I should follow with the map of J2b, the other major South Balkanic lineage with Neolithic ties.

The distribution is actually quite similar to E-V13, apart from a lower incidence in Slavic countries, but that may just be because E-V13 is found at a ratio of 4:1 against J2b almost everywhere. So wherever E-V13 is between 1% and 4% it would lie in the grey zone ( <1%) for J2b.

There is hardly any data for J2b in Iberia and France, so the actual distribution may be less homogeneous.



Compare with E-V13



Interestingly J2b appears to be absent from most of northern Italy, although that is not the case for E-V13. The opposite is true for the Basques, who have J2b but hardly any E-V13.

Note that Kurdistan has high frequency of J2b, E-V13 as well as I2a-Din, R1a and R1b-L23 in (the whole South Balkanic package).

Also noteworthy is the presence of both J2b and E-M123 in southern England (possible Roman heritage ?)

[adamo]

Did these two subclades (J2b) and E-V13 travel together from the Middle East towards the Balkans; it would seem so. Two agriculturalist Neolithic lineages from different ultimate origin points but that moved in synchrony from western Anatolia towards the Greece/Albania/Serbia region of the southern Balkans.

[adamo]

In Italy, J2b is found in a maximum of 10% of north-central Italians; E-V13 peaks in the south at 15-25% on average probably.

[adamo]

Also the Ligurian coast region, unexpectedly has 27% E3b.....there is very little J2 in the Liguria region (10%), but an opposite trend is what we see for the Veneto region were 25-27% of men belong to J and the E3b frequencies are only 8-9%.

[adamo]

The region of Liguria has inflated levels of E3b; most regions around here (northwestern Italy) even within Liguria have higher R1b levels (50-60%) Lombardy,Piemonte,Liiguria,Valle D'Aosta, Emilia-Romagna, The Trentino Region, Veneto and Friuli Venezia Giulia; most of northern Italy including Tuscany are heavy with typical west European genetic components. In central Italy the J2 levels tend to double from 10-15% to 20-30%. The south maintains similar frequencies with certain extreme Hugh's or lows that ary regionally.

[Nobody1]

Also the Ligurian coast region, unexpectedly has 27% E3b.....there is very little J2 in the Liguria region (10%), but an opposite trend is what we see for the Veneto region were 25-27% of men belong to J and the E3b frequencies are only 8-9%.

Whats your data from?

Boattini et al 2013 - has 51 samples from Liguria (Genoa/Savona)
E3b (all of it is E-M78) is 15.6% [13.7% E-V13 / 1.9% E-V22];
21.5% in Liguria is R1b-U152;
R1b in total is 50.9% all of it R1b-M269;

Boattini et al 2013
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0065441

[adamo]

I know all that, I guess studies have between 10-15% E3b in Veneto then.

[Nobody1]

I know all that, I guess studies have between 10-15% E3b in Veneto then.

Yes;
12.4% E-M78 [11.0% E-V13 / 1.4% E-V22]
2.7% E-M123

73 samples Veneto (Vicenza/Treviso) - Boattini et al 2013

J2b = 0% / J2a is much higher just like in the rest of the boot;

[adamo]

Yes, Liguria has about 48-50% R1b total of which one fifth is u152...seems Liguria is similar to France or Belgium in terms of frequency. It has a "low" just like Veneto and the Bologna region have and then everything down south under Tuscany pretty much is a low. Seems more Germanic forms of R1b settled the Bologna region of Emilia-Romagna and near Treviso in Veneto for example....I think there's more R1b P312* and R1b L-21 in these regions as well. U152 maintains a 50% high in the northwest and north center of the country, and the Tuscan basin basically is the regions were 40-50% of males belong to R-S28. The Cuneo/Piemonte region, the Brescia region of Lombardy. It's amazing to see the gradient as only 1-10% of males on Sardinia, Sicily and in southern Italy belong to R-S28, excluding a 15% "high" in the Catanzaro region of Calabria and similarly low frequencies; a high of 10% in the Ragusa region...10% of males in L'Aquila, 12% of males from Olbia Tempio Sardinia (and these are the extreme highs in the south.) moving towards central Italy, only 15% of men from Macerata belong to u152. Frequencies are higher near Foligno (25%), being slightly higher or about as high as they would be across France. Tuscany though, has abnormally high frequencies (40% on average), leading me to believe that most of the men from this province in particular descend from Gallic/Celtic invasions. The frequencies of u152 are at about 30% of males from Bologna; but the amount of Celtic blood in total, is double that (55-60% R1b) generally in a northern province such as Emilia-Romagna, leading me to believe more Germanic groups or different P312 subgroups take up about half the regions R1b, wether they be subgroups of S116 or R-S21. Vicenza only has 10% u152 and Treviso only 30%, leading me to believe there is a larger importance of Germanic lineages near the Veneto/Trento regions, probably more settled by Germanics than gallics. 30% leaves another 70% of R1b of a different origin, Vicenza must have higher P312, L21 and u106 lineages.

[Maciamo]

In Italy, J2b is found in a maximum of 10% of north-central Italians; E-V13 peaks in the south at 15-25% on average probably.

Not according to the Boattini et al. data, which found only one J2b sample in Como out if 296 samples in northern Italy. The FTDNA J2b project also lack any member north of Florence.

[adamo]

It would seem that P312 basal lineages reach their maximum in the Liguria region were they make up 20% of the regional R1b. U152 controls another 20% a few L23 and L21's were also found. P312 in its most basal form made up 10% of Cuneo samples, whereas u152 controlled 35-40% of the men. In lake Como Lombardy, 22% are u152 and then 10% are P312, 10% are Greco-Etruscan L23 and 10% are Germanic u106. In Veneto region, germanic,middle eastern, Greco-Etruscan and S116italo-celtics clades peak in a weird hodge podge almost equally within a region that only has 30% R1b...no clade is quite dominant except for u152's slight 10% advantage on other clades....in bologna, 30% out of 60% are u152 and the other three clades have 10% each, so it's not like any other clades just "take over in southern Italy" it's just that as you progress south, R1b frequencies drop and u152 has a smaller piece of that smaller cake and then a rare few P312,L21,U106!L23; a bizarre melting pot of these clades at very low frequencies take place so whereas in the north for example 50% of men are R1b of which 35% is u152 or 60% are R1b of which 45% is u152, or 50% are R1b of which 25% are u152, whereas in the south, 35% are R1b and 15% are u152, or 25% is R1b and 10% is u152.....u152 ends up being the majority pretty much everywhere, it's just that last 15-30% in certain regions that isn't u152, is split up between L23,L21,U106; etc.

[Angela]

Whats your data from?

Boattini et al 2013 - has 51 samples from Liguria (Genoa/Savona)
E3b (all of it is E-M78) is 15.6% [13.7% E-V13 / 1.9% E-V22];
21.5% in Liguria is R1b-U152;
R1b in total is 50.9% all of it R1b-M269;

Boattini et al 2013
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0065441

I would only add that those figures are basically for Genova and west in Liguria. Boattini et al decided not to include La Spezia in their Liguria samples, although La Spezia has been an eastern Ligurian coastal city for centuries. Massa and the area of the Garfagnana above it have been part of Tuscany administratively, although not always. The Lunigiana, which is directly above La Spezia, is a mix of Ligurian and Emilian and a lesser amount of Tuscan in dialect and food and culture. Fivizzano in the west has been part of Tuscany since the days of the Medici, while the north has many ties with Emilia, and the south, for example, around Sarzana, is Ligurian.

I realize this is more than you're all interested in, lol, but I'm trying to point out that figures for some areas of Italy have to be taken with a grain of salt. Genetics don't necessarily follow city or even provincial boundaries. They are older distributions.

Boattini et al may have looked at the fact that many of La Spezia's inhabitants have ancestry from the Lunigiana and the Garfagnana, and decided to separate it. It is true that even the Spezzino dialect is a mix of Emilian and Ligurian.

At any rate, that section of the Ligurian coast has, according to Boattini et al 0% J2, and 0% E1b1b.

Although I'm an admirer of their work here, particularly the use of local surnames to filter the samples, I'm not sure I altogether buy that, as these are small samples, although I think it may be true that over hundreds of years, there has probably been a steady drip of migration from Emilia into this whole area, which may have lowered the levels of these J and E haplogroups there.

[Eldritch]

E-V13 peaks in the south at 15-25% on average probably.

According to Boattini peaks in the NE of Italy.

[adamo]

1. It obviously peaks in the south in regions like Apulia,Basilicata and Calabria and even the Genoa region where Greek colonization was extensive. What I meant Maciamo was anywhere in between "north-central" Italy....I wasn't commenting on the region in its entirety, nor of a specific more northern region y speak of(Lombardy,extreme north)

[Eldritch]

1. It obviously peaks in the south in regions like Apulia,Basilicata and Calabria and even the Genoa region where Greek colonization was extensive. What I meant Maciamo was anywhere in between "north-central" Italy....I wasn't commenting on the region in its entirety, nor of a specific more northern region y speak of(Lombardy,extreme north)

As you can see E-V13 is highest in NE of Italy among all the tested areas.

[Nobody1]

I would only add that those figures are basically for Genova and west in Liguria. Boattini et al decided not to include La Spezia in their Liguria samples, although La Spezia has been an eastern Ligurian coastal city for centuries. Massa and the area of the Garfagnana above it have been part of Tuscany administratively, although not always. The Lunigiana, which is directly above La Spezia, is a mix of Ligurian and Emilian and a lesser amount of Tuscan in dialect and food and culture. Fivizzano in the west has been part of Tuscany since the days of the Medici, while the north has many ties with Emilia, and the south, for example, around Sarzana, is Ligurian.

I realize this is more than you're all interested in, lol, but I'm trying to point out that figures for some areas of Italy have to be taken with a grain of salt. Genetics don't necessarily follow city or even provincial boundaries. They are older distributions.

Boattini et al may have looked at the fact that many of La Spezia's inhabitants have ancestry from the Lunigiana and the Garfagnana, and decided to separate it. It is true that even the Spezzino dialect is a mix of Emilian and Ligurian.

At any rate, that section of the Ligurian coast has, according to Boattini et al 0% J2, and 0% E1b1b.

Although I'm an admirer of their work here, particularly the use of local surnames to filter the samples, I'm not sure I altogether buy that, as these are small samples, although I think it may be true that over hundreds of years, there has probably been a steady drip of migration from Emilia into this whole area, which may have lowered the levels of these J and E haplogroups there.

Yes;
24 samples from LaSpezia/Massa is def. a very small sample-set; But a good (first) insight none the less;

DiGiacomo et al 2003 - 42 samples from the Garfagnana
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/italy.pdf

All in all not much but something;

[adamo]

The countries strongest subclade is R1b u-152 (12%) then comes Neolithic G2a (P15) at 11%. Next is E-V13 (8%) and then J2a (7.5%). The next biggest subclade is R-M269 (7%) followed by R1b L2 (6.7%). Another 5.6% belong to P312 and then I2a1 has 4% of Italians...

[adamo]

Together L2 and u152 make up about 20% of italian males.

[Angela]

As you can see E-V13 is highest in NE of Italy among all the tested areas.

Aren't we splitting hairs a little bit here? It's 11.0% in the Northeast, and 10.6% in the southeast. Perhaps a distinction without a difference? Also, as I've said elsewhere, I admire the work of Boattini et al, but this is one study, and the number of samples in any one area is not very large. I think a more balanced picture would include other sources. I think it would also perhaps include some of the other subclades of M-78. Just as an example of why I think some of these Boattini et. al results may be a little skewed, I don't for one minute believe that E-M81 really has its maximum in Bologna or in Emilia-Romagna in general. They just happened to scoop up an M-81 line there.

What I think is fair to say, however, is that y dna E-V13 in Italy is either through direct settlement in the Neolithic or through Greek colonization in the first millenium B.C. How to distinguish between them, would require, I think, dating different subclades within the larger E-V13 clade. As for the E-V13 in Liguria and Piemonte, I would be very surprised if it was mostly Greek mediated. There were never the large scale Greek settlements here of the kind that were present over much of the Sicilian and coastal southern Italian areas. The southeast probably would contain E-V13 from both expansions, as might the northeast, although more of that is probably Neolithic than in the southeast.

I think it's also fair to say that it is surprising how much E and G and J2a there is in the northeast. Rather funny as well, for all those who try to link phenotype with y dna clades, and hold that these three clades are Middle Eastern and therefore supposedly confer "darker" phenotypes, as the Veneto is perhaps one of the fairest regions of Italy. :)

[Eldritch]

Aren't we splitting hairs a little bit here? It's 11.0% in the Northeast, and 10.6% in the southeast. Perhaps a distinction without a difference? Also, as I've said elsewhere, I admire the work of Boattini et al, but this is one study, and the number of samples in any one area is not very large. I think a more balanced picture would include other sources. I think it would also perhaps include some of the other subclades of M-78. Just as an example of why I think some of these Boattini et. al results may be a little skewed, I don't for one minute believe that E-M81 really has its maximum in Bologna or in Emilia-Romagna in general. They just happened to scoop up an M-81 line there.

What I think is fair to say, however, is that y dna E-V13 in Italy is either through direct settlement in the Neolithic or through Greek colonization in the first millenium B.C. How to distinguish between them, would require, I think, dating different subclades within the larger E-V13 clade. As for the E-V13 in Liguria and Piemonte, I would be very surprised if it was mostly Greek mediated. There were never the large scale Greek settlements here of the kind that were present over much of the Sicilian and coastal southern Italian areas. The southeast probably would contain E-V13 from both expansions, as might the northeast, although more of that is probably Neolithic than in the southeast.

I think it's also fair to say that it is surprising how much E and G and J2a there is in the northeast. Rather funny as well, for all those who try to link phenotype with y dna clades, and hold that these three clades are Middle Eastern and therefore supposedly confer "darker" phenotypes, as the Veneto is perhaps one of the fairest regions of Italy. :)

I was just pointing up to Adamo that his is statement about E-V13 distribution wasn't right.

[Angela]

I was just pointing up to Adamo that his is statement about E-V13 distribution wasn't right.

No problem. I just actually thanked you for your post. I do think it's important to keep the record straight, and you were indeed correct, it's just that I'm OCD about all the qualifications that I think are important when looking at all of this. :)

[Fire Haired]

What are the age estimates for J2b? I bet it is Neolithic but maybe it came later. The Kurds speak a Indo Iranian language ancestral languages to Indo Iranian migrated out of Yamna culture in Russia and Ukraine about 5,000 years ago. Y DNA samples of early Indo Iranian speakers show they were almost only R1a1a probably specifically R1a1a1b2 Z93. But I think there is a good chance since they came out of eastern Europe they may have spread some J2b and I2a1b. But from what I know there is no I2a1b in other Indo Iranians besides Kurds so maybe Cimmerians who migrated in that area of the Near east around 700bc from around the black sea were I2a1b is very popular maybe their the source. But why is it stuck in Kurds not other ethnic groups in that area like Assyrians? Probably because the I2a1b went to specifically only Kurdish people. I don't understand Maciamo why you would connect R1b1a2a L23 in Kurds to Balkan area when they have more R1b1a2a L23 than anywhere in Europe. And it is more popular in the Near east than Europe so I really doubt the J2b and I2a1b in Kurds is connected with R1b1a2a L23 if anything it was brought to Europe from the Near east.

[Nobody1]

Aren't we splitting hairs a little bit here? It's 11.0% in the Northeast, and 10.6% in the southeast. Perhaps a distinction without a difference? Also, as I've said elsewhere, I admire the work of Boattini et al, but this is one study, and the number of samples in any one area is not very large. I think a more balanced picture would include other sources. I think it would also perhaps include some of the other subclades of M-78. Just as an example of why I think some of these Boattini et. al results may be a little skewed, I don't for one minute believe that E-M81 really has its maximum in Bologna or in Emilia-Romagna in general. They just happened to scoop up an M-81 line there.

Of course they (Boattini et al 2013) dont;

E-M81 is 0% in North Italy [East and West] 240 samples (all together) of Area I and Area II

Bologna is just 29 samples and the 3.4% E-M81 = 1 sample;
E-M81 in Tuscany = 0.8% also just 1 sample (of 123 samples total) and 0% in Central Italy of Area V (77 samples)

There is no E-M81 hotspot in Bologna its just 1 sample from 29 samples;
I also do not credit the abnormal 10.3% R1b-L21 that high given that its just 29 samples;

Boattini et al 2013 - Supporting Information TableS2
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0065441

[Sile]

Aren't we splitting hairs a little bit here? It's 11.0% in the Northeast, and 10.6% in the southeast. Perhaps a distinction without a difference? Also, as I've said elsewhere, I admire the work of Boattini et al, but this is one study, and the number of samples in any one area is not very large. I think a more balanced picture would include other sources. I think it would also perhaps include some of the other subclades of M-78. Just as an example of why I think some of these Boattini et. al results may be a little skewed, I don't for one minute believe that E-M81 really has its maximum in Bologna or in Emilia-Romagna in general. They just happened to scoop up an M-81 line there.

What I think is fair to say, however, is that y dna E-V13 in Italy is either through direct settlement in the Neolithic or through Greek colonization in the first millenium B.C. How to distinguish between them, would require, I think, dating different subclades within the larger E-V13 clade. As for the E-V13 in Liguria and Piemonte, I would be very surprised if it was mostly Greek mediated. There were never the large scale Greek settlements here of the kind that were present over much of the Sicilian and coastal southern Italian areas. The southeast probably would contain E-V13 from both expansions, as might the northeast, although more of that is probably Neolithic than in the southeast.

I think it's also fair to say that it is surprising how much E and G and J2a there is in the northeast. Rather funny as well, for all those who try to link phenotype with y dna clades, and hold that these three clades are Middle Eastern and therefore supposedly confer "darker" phenotypes, as the Veneto is perhaps one of the fairest regions of Italy. :)

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strange how this Battaglia numbers from 2008 has very different numbers for north-east Italians compared to the boattini ones

[adamo]

The Greeks have the most hg T according to this (only north-east Italians were tested)... At only slightly over 4%.