Black Irish come from R1b Iranians?

[MOESAN]

to Hope:
Ireland has surely not more crossings than other lands, and everypart of Europe knew "invasions" or "contamination" in some degree - and sometimes "invasions" bore the same ethnies
Irish people have the highest percentages of spreckling with Scotland (and yet this trait is more evident when skin is submitted to sun), from 40% to 60% -
but it is true Irish population is not an unique one and has more than a geographical and genetic origin - and the Y-Hgs are old enough and knew surely some drifts (male domination, natural selection for some reason...) so different stories for diverse branchs of the same common male ligneages can create at end very different looking and genetical populations, spite this far common origin

 

[MOESAN]

I have had this argument with so many people and it really gets annoying. We have to remember Y DNA Is just a direct male lineage E was originally sub sharan African Adolf Hitler had E1b1b does he look black. y DNA P brother NO has two decendants N which is dominate in north Asians and Urlaic speakers O is dominate in east Asians Q their cousin dominate in Native Americans, Na Dene(Eskimoe, Inuit, Etc.), and central Siberia. Why would for some reason R be Caucasian that makes no sense. Actulley NO and P's two other brothers S and M are very popular in Papue New gunie no where near the mid east or Europe. Papue New gunie are Oceania globe13 and y DNa and mtDNA have shown Mongliods and Oceania are extremely related coming from the same migration out of the near east maybe 80,000ybp or so. It gets so annoying how many people don't understand the human family tree. Something important to remember there is no such thing as the Eurasian race Caucasians and Mongliods are not very related besides that their human and maybe a connection with being non sub sharan African. Mongliod and Oceania the people in southern asia and Australia who have black skin and nappy hair their Oceania and are extremely related to Mongliods.

Y-R "mongoloid" ?!?
why? OR why not?
'european' (phenotypes) and 'mongoloids' are the two divergent branches of a first big one that diverged from 'african' (old stage: not by force the current 'negroid' paradygm) - our differences today are evident but no population shares exactly ALL THE TYPICAL FEATURES OF ITS GROUP, not only because of some crossings during pre-modern and modern Hsitory but because the raciation process is a slow one, produced by isolation (not always total) and ACCUMULATION OF MUTATIONS THAT DID NOT ALWAYS IMPOSED THEMSELVES UPON THE WHOLE POPULATION CONCERNED - the rarest traits disappear but slowly, spite the "big numbers law" and sexual selection... NOT PERFECT!!!
I suppose (I cannot say : "I know") the first bearers of Y- P/Q/R was rather on the 'European' side of the 'eurasion' group - some "mongoloid" traits amid Europeans and some"european" ones amid Asiatic people ARE NOT ALWAYS THE SIGN OF CROSSINGS AFTER SEPARATION!!!
the western rare Y-Q knew an different genetical story compared to majority of eastern Y-Q : the contrary for Y-R1 (a, b)
the N-E America Amerindians and some of the Central Siberian peoples show intermediary traits: a lot are due to crossings in Siberia, but I'm not sure it is the case for the old N-E Amerindians we know through old pictures before racial crossings with "white" people...
typical mongoloid and australian primitive people were separated very early and knew yet more different story... mt and autosomlas have their words to say against Y-DNA
have a good week-end

 

[hope]

to Hope:
Ireland has surely not more crossings than other lands, and everypart of Europe knew "invasions" or "contamination" in some degree - and sometimes "invasions" bore the same ethnies
Irish people have the highest percentages of spreckling with Scotland (and yet this trait is more evident when skin is submitted to sun), from 40% to 60% -
but it is true Irish population is not an unique one and has more than a geographical and genetic origin - and the Y-Hgs are old enough and knew surely some drifts (male domination, natural selection for some reason...) so different stories for diverse branchs of the same common male ligneages can create at end very different looking and genetical populations, spite this far common origin

MOESAN, I believe we are in agreement.
Yes, of course Europe knew "invasion" and "input" and Ireland is not unique in this regard.
However I was speaking on the theory some give for, what they call the "Dark Irish" as if it were something brought into Ireland rather than something that has always been in Ireland. I stated dark hair in Ireland is quite common. My reference to repeated invasion was only to give an example of how red or blonde hair came to be in the population here ( as I do not think light hair was native to here).
I apologise if I failed to make this clear

 

[Degredado]

Black or dark brown hair. But in all fairness (no pun intended) light hair came with the Celts and Germanics well after the Neolithic, so Neolithic Britons, Irish and Iberians would have had pretty much black hair.

This kind of reaction just sounds like you have a complex about pigmentation. I have never heard an East Asian (or any Asian for that matter) feel uncomfortable about the fact that they have pitch black hair. This feeling is something I have discovered with Iberians on this forum (and other places on the Internet, I have since noticed). I don't know of any people more complexed about their hair, skin and eye colours than Spaniards and Portuguese people. What's with the obsession of trying to prove that Iberians are more Celtic or Germanic or northern European ?

I too have noticed this perennial crusade of the Spaniards and Portuguese on forums to prove that they are every bit as Celtic and Germanic as other Europeans. They always seem to take things very personally and get easily riled up with any remark that so much as hints at their supposed Moorish ancestry or makes any reference to "olive skin", "dark hair" and what not. This deep concern they have comes off as a bit silly... Spain and Portugal both have a lot of history and great achievements, they were kings of the world not too long ago. Iberians should worry less about what others think of their hair color or about the fact that others may think they have an Arab great-great-great grandfather somewhere down the line.

I am of Iberian ancestry myself and I'm perfectly ok with the idea that I probably had some Arab/Berber ancestor 800 years ago who spent his time smoking shisha and being surrounded by beautiful women in his harem in Cordoba or Granada.

 

[Sile]

original theory of Black Irish -
refers to someone of Irish descent who had black hair, green eyes and porcelain white skin, coming from spanish and french basques lands. Arrived in Ireland before the celts did.

 

[Fire Haired]

original theory of Black Irish -
refers to someone of Irish descent who had black hair, green eyes and porcelain white skin, coming from spanish and french basques lands. Arrived in Ireland before the celts did.

Total BS I get sick of hearing the Iberian origin of Irish or pre Celtic Irish. It is true that is the typical Irish from what I have seen look like that.

 

[Drac II]

Black or dark brown hair. But in all fairness (no pun intended) light hair came with the Celts and Germanics well after the Neolithic, so Neolithic Britons, Irish and Iberians would have had pretty much black hair.

This kind of reaction just sounds like you have a complex about pigmentation. I have never heard an East Asian (or any Asian for that matter) feel uncomfortable about the fact that they have pitch black hair. This feeling is something I have discovered with Iberians on this forum (and other places on the Internet, I have since noticed). I don't know of any people more complexed about their hair, skin and eye colours than Spaniards and Portuguese people. What's with the obsession of trying to prove that Iberians are more Celtic or Germanic or northern European ?

More like this kind of reaction, seen in your bizarre answer, when someone is corrected about misleading statements based on false propaganda & stereotypes which are not backed up by actual pigmentation data is the one that displays either a complex or an agenda.

Funny, because the northern Italians (and not just around here) are the ones who keep trying to portray themselves as "blond" and "blue eyed" and "Germanic" and lighter than anyone in southern Europe, yet you never say anything like that about them. More of your agendas, I suppose.

The reason why East Asians wouldn't complain about having pitch-black hair is because... **DRUM ROLL**: they do indeed have such hair. If they were constantly portrayed as having red or blonde hair, I am sure they would protest that this is a false stereotype or some strange agenda.

 

[Drac II]

I too have noticed this perennial crusade of the Spaniards and Portuguese on forums to prove that they are every bit as Celtic and Germanic as other Europeans. They always seem to take things very personally and get easily riled up with any remark that so much as hints at their supposed Moorish ancestry or makes any reference to "olive skin", "dark hair" and what not. This deep concern they have comes off as a bit silly... Spain and Portugal both have a lot of history and great achievements, they were kings of the world not too long ago. Iberians should worry less about what others think of their hair color or about the fact that others may think they have an Arab great-great-great grandfather somewhere down the line.

I am of Iberian ancestry myself and I'm perfectly ok with the idea that I probably had some Arab/Berber ancestor 800 years ago who spent his time smoking shisha and being surrounded by beautiful women in his harem in Cordoba or Granada.

Once again another case of someone trying to project his complexes onto others. Spaniards HAVE to defend themselves from such propaganda, specially coming from Latin Americans with a complex who are always trying to distort the image and history of Spain and its inhabitants, it's not like they have a choice. An old saying says "silence means consent".

 

[Fire Haired]

MOESAN, I believe we are in agreement.
Yes, of course Europe knew "invasion" and "input" and Ireland is not unique in this regard.
However I was speaking on the theory some give for, what they call the "Dark Irish" as if it were something brought into Ireland rather than something that has always been in Ireland. I stated dark hair in Ireland is quite common. My reference to repeated invasion was only to give an example of how red or blonde hair came to be in the population here ( as I do not think light hair was native to here).
I apologise if I failed to make this clear

For Ireland the last invasion to make any major genetic input is R1b L21 and Df27 Celtic invasions about 3,500-4,500ybp. There is a good chance Irish may trace almost all their ancestry to those invaders(British ancestry almost all from Celtic and Germanic invaders). The majority dark hair and then the surprisingly common green eyes probably come from the same source as the over 10% red hair. Figuring out the history of percentage of hair color in areas of Europe overtime is extremely hard. My opinon on it is Europeans main ancestors migrated to Europe from the Near east from 40,000-50,000ybp. They were as dark as all other Caucasians so light brown-brown skinned and almost all dark haired and eyed. But the genes for pale skin and all different types of non dark hair and eye colors where there but much more rare than today. The prove is they exist in other Caucasins besides Europeans (Origin of European palness(hair, skin, and eye color). It is hard to say when Europeans ancestors became dominated by pale skin it could have been before they migrated to Europe because of some Near eastern ethnic groups who are dominated by pale skin for example Samaritans, Druze, and Caucus people.

Either way becoming pale skinned and very light haired and eyed happened separately but probably for the same reasons. There is really nothing to use to get an age estimate of when this all happened. Since in globe13 aust dna test the group called North Euro Is the only to originate in Europe and it takes up over 71% if European hunter gather samples and could have been 100% in Europeans before the spread of farming. And that it shows very close correlation to the distribution of fair hair and eyes in Europe I think Europe was much more light haired and eyed before the spread of farmers from the Near east starting 9,000ybp. But the Soumi in far northern Scandinavia and northeastern Finnish who have about 80% North Euro have the same hair color and eye color percentages as central French and Iberians.

I am not sure about red hair since it is almost totally isolated in western Europe and Volga Russia well it exists in probably all of Europe but those are the only areas with 1% or more. Since red hair does exist in non European Samartiens in Palestine and that globe13 test of all 700 showed 0% pre Neolithic European North Euro this probably means red hair originated in the Near east over 50,000ybp. And since red hair in western Europe is connected with the spread of Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 and existed in Indo Iranians and Tocherians and is over 1% in Volga Russia. This may mean the first population to have over 1% red hair was in central Russia. The best way to figure out the hair color and eye color history of Europe is ancient DNA.

 

[Degredado]

Once again another case of someone trying to project his complexes onto others. Spaniards HAVE to defend themselves from such propaganda, specially coming from Latin Americans with a complex who are always trying to distort the image and history of Spain and its inhabitants, it's not like they have a choice. An old saying says "silence means consent".

Oh dear... another Spaniard getting emotional and ripping his hair off over these supposed "Latin American agendas". Drac, fella, I assure you I have absolutely nothing against (and very little for) Spain. Spain is not a country that Brazilians spend time thinking about, we weren't a Spanish colony, we don't speak Spanish, etc. When we think Europe, we think France, UK, Germany, Italy... Maybe Guatemalans or Hondurans might have some kind of obsession or, as you put it, "complex" with Spain... but you can rest assured that Brazilians don't.

 

[Sile]

More like this kind of reaction, seen in your bizarre answer, when someone is corrected about misleading statements based on false propaganda & stereotypes which are not backed up by actual pigmentation data is the one that displays either a complex or an agenda.

Funny, because the northern Italians (and not just around here) are the ones who keep trying to portray themselves as "blond" and "blue eyed" and "Germanic" and lighter than anyone in southern Europe, yet you never say anything like that about them. More of your agendas, I suppose.

The reason why East Asians wouldn't complain about having pitch-black hair is because... **DRUM ROLL**: they do indeed have such hair. If they were constantly portrayed as having red or blonde hair, I am sure they would protest that this is a false stereotype or some strange agenda.

WOW, I did not know Maciano was northern Italian, I thought he was belgic area in ethnicity ( although I could be wrong). Besides, whats your paranoia with northern Italians and southern french?.
Look after your own ethnicity and do not bother about comparing about other ethnicity.

 

[Fire Haired]

Y-R "mongoloid" ?!?
why? OR why not?
'european' (phenotypes) and 'mongoloids' are the two divergent branches of a first big one that diverged from 'african' (old stage: not by force the current 'negroid' paradygm) - our differences today are evident but no population shares exactly ALL THE TYPICAL FEATURES OF ITS GROUP, not only because of some crossings during pre-modern and modern Hsitory but because the raciation process is a slow one, produced by isolation (not always total) and ACCUMULATION OF MUTATIONS THAT DID NOT ALWAYS IMPOSED THEMSELVES UPON THE WHOLE POPULATION CONCERNED - the rarest traits disappear but slowly, spite the "big numbers law" and sexual selection... NOT PERFECT!!!
I suppose (I cannot say : "I know") the first bearers of Y- P/Q/R was rather on the 'European' side of the 'eurasion' group - some "mongoloid" traits amid Europeans and some"european" ones amid Asiatic people ARE NOT ALWAYS THE SIGN OF CROSSINGS AFTER SEPARATION!!!
the western rare Y-Q knew an different genetical story compared to majority of eastern Y-Q : the contrary for Y-R1 (a, b)
the N-E America Amerindians and some of the Central Siberian peoples show intermediary traits: a lot are due to crossings in Siberia, but I'm not sure it is the case for the old N-E Amerindians we know through old pictures before racial crossings with "white" people...
typical mongoloid and australian primitive people were separated very early and knew yet more different story... mt and autosomlas have their words to say against Y-DNA
have a good week-end

Why cant you just admit y DNA R was originally Mongliod. That Mongliods and the so called negriod people in southern asia and Austrilla are really in the same sub group of Humans Mongliod Oceania Austomal, Y DNA, and MtDNA have proven this. I get so annoyed when people who don't know a lot about genetics say when Europeans and east Asians diverged. Europeans are NOT their own sub group of humans they group with near easterns and north Africans so you cant say European skull shape or whatever it is the Caucasian skull shape. I do think there is good evidence the first humans looked Negriod since Oceania do and they get it from the same source as sub sharan Africans so originally I guess Mongliods did too. In globe13 mongliod Oceania is no more related to Caucasians as Sub sharan African group is but Y DNa and mtDNA point to them coming from the same non African family. So originally Caucasians ancestors too may have had black skin and nappy hair. Since sub sharan Africans have not left Africa maybe that's why they never lost the black skin and nappy hair. But there is no true Sub Sharan African skull shape. But since straight hair just seems to make so much more sense look at apes and other animals all have straight hair and fur none have nappy. And since girls natural have longer hair even black ones than men that is more evidence maybe not the first humans had straight hair but human ancestors did.

 

[Alan]

Why cant you just admit y DNA R was originally Mongliod. That Mongliods and the so called negriod people in southern asia and Austrilla are really in the same sub group of Humans Mongliod Oceania Austomal, Y DNA, and MtDNA have proven this. I get so annoyed when people who don't know a lot about genetics say when Europeans and east Asians diverged. Europeans are NOT their own sub group of humans they group with near easterns and north Africans so you cant say European skull shape or whatever it is the Caucasian skull shape. I do think there is good evidence the first humans looked Negriod since Oceania do and they get it from the same source as sub sharan Africans so originally I guess Mongliods did too. In globe13 mongliod Oceania is no more related to Caucasians as Sub sharan African group is but Y DNa and mtDNA point to them coming from the same non African family. So originally Caucasians ancestors too may have had black skin and nappy hair. Since sub sharan Africans have not left Africa maybe that's why they never lost the black skin and nappy hair. But there is no true Sub Sharan African skull shape. But since straight hair just seems to make so much more sense look at apes and other animals all have straight hair and fur none have nappy. And since girls natural have longer hair even black ones than men that is more evidence maybe not the first humans had straight hair but human ancestors did.

Sorry Fire Haired but here I agree with MOEASAN. There is really no reason to believe that R* haplogroups were mongoloid. In one of your other post you even implied that R1 people where "Caucasified by R2 people but now you call all R people mongolid.

The thing is Any R haplogroup is exclusively connected to West Eurasian autosomal DNA. All R people are Caucasian or have a part Caucasian history (like Turkic tribes in Central Asia who have paternal Iranian ancestry).


As I said earlier, I believe just like Moeasan, that most NOP were neither Caucasian nor Mongolid. They had characteristics of both. With R people becoming Caucasian while O East Asian and N and Q people depending on sub clades something in between while leaning slightly more towards East Asians.

 

[Drac II]

Oh dear... another Spaniard getting emotional and ripping his hair off over these supposed "Latin American agendas". Drac, fella, I assure you I have absolutely nothing against (and very little for) Spain. Spain is not a country that Brazilians spend time thinking about, we weren't a Spanish colony, we don't speak Spanish, etc. When we think Europe, we think France, UK, Germany, Italy... Maybe Guatemalans or Hondurans might have some kind of obsession or, as you put it, "complex" with Spain... but you can rest assured that Brazilians don't.

Yes, we can plainly see how little you care about this and how you have no agendas whatsoever on the subject by the fact that you quickly jumped on the "Bash Spain & Spaniards" bandwagon. Whenever Spaniards defend themselves (and, unlike many others who attempt to do the same, they do so by using actual facts and legitimate sources) then such people quickly jump out with the "you have a complex" projections. I am not sure who is it that these folks are trying to fool, but such childish tactics do not work. You are not going to "silence" opposition to mistaken claims, stereotypes and propaganda with such cheap psychology.

 

[Drac II]

WOW, I did not know Maciano was northern Italian, I thought he was belgic area in ethnicity ( although I could be wrong). Besides, whats your paranoia with northern Italians and southern french?.
Look after your own ethnicity and do not bother about comparing about other ethnicity.

I never said he was, but he obviously doesn't mind when they do it (and they do it so often that even web sites have addressed the issue of their propaganda and lies, something I have never seen for any Spaniards, simply because contrary to his claims most Spaniards in fact are quite unconcerned about such things, while lots of northern Italians are obsessed about them), he apparently only notices such things whenever he thinks Spaniards do it. And looking at cases when he and certain other admins attack Spaniards for supposedly having a "complex" it's almost always Spaniards clarifying mistaken statements about them or defending themselves from attacks and lies made by others, which is nothing short of bizarre since these are administrators we are talking about. They should be on the side of the people being attacked out-of-nowhere, not joining the ranks of the forum disrupters & provocateurs! How much do you want to bet that if we had people around here often saying that Italians are short, swarthy, black-haired, Jewish/Arab-nosed, descended from Roman-era Near Eastern and North African slaves and immigrants, etc., they would actually join the side of Italians against those making the uncalled-for propaganda & attacks? I bet you anything they would not join the provocateurs and say things like "Italians have a complex about their pigmentation" whenever Italians tried to defend themselves. Yet that's exactly what he (and certain others who shall remain nameless) do whenever similar things are thrown at Spaniards and Spaniards answer back. Then comes the "Spaniards have a complex" nonsense just because they refuse to stay quiet and accept whatever nonsense some people with complexes, agendas and obsessions try to throw at them.

And you should talk about bothering & paranoias about other ethnicities!

 

[Sile]

I never said he was, but he obviously doesn't mind when they do it (and they do it so often that even web sites have addressed the issue of their propaganda and lies, something I have never seen for any Spaniards, simply because contrary to his claims most Spaniards in fact are quite unconcerned about such things, while lots of northern Italians are obsessed about them), he apparently only notices such things whenever he thinks Spaniards do it. And looking at cases when he and certain other admins attack Spaniards for supposedly having a "complex" it's almost always Spaniards clarifying mistaken statements about them or defending themselves from attacks and lies made by others, which is nothing short of bizarre since these are administrators we are talking about. They should be on the side of the people being attacked out-of-nowhere, not joining the ranks of the forum disrupters & provocateurs! How much do you want to bet that if we had people around here often saying that Italians are short, swarthy, black-haired, Jewish/Arab-nosed, descended from Roman-era Near Eastern and North African slaves and immigrants, etc., they would actually join the side of Italians against those making the uncalled-for propaganda & attacks? I bet you anything they would not join the provocateurs and say things like "Italians have a complex about their pigmentation" whenever Italians tried to defend themselves. Yet that's exactly what he (and certain others who shall remain nameless) do whenever similar things are thrown at Spaniards and Spaniards answer back. Then comes the "Spaniards have a complex" nonsense just because they refuse to stay quiet and accept whatever nonsense some people with complexes, agendas and obsessions try to throw at them.

And you should talk about bothering & paranoias about other ethnicities!

I told you many times, in genetics, culture, ethnicity and linguistically, Spain, Italy, Germany, France etc etc have many many differences within their own nations.
Nationality is a BS in this type of discussion.
nationality serves one purpose, to make one's family safe and have a higher standard of living . It does nothing else. If it does not achieve this , then that group or individual should leave this articifical system of the nation he resides in . Why do you think we have immigration?
So, thinking that all spaniards are identical and discussng this against another false term called Italian or German etc is misleading to all. I for one, do not even know what part of Spain you refer to, I don't even know where you are from, so how can I possibily discuss the colour of Spaniards.
Why don't you give a brief summary of what a Spaniard is suppose to be and we can discuss it

 

[Degredado]

Yes, we can plainly see how little you care about this and how you have no agendas whatsoever on the subject by the fact that you quickly jumped on the "Bash Spain & Spaniards" bandwagon. Whenever Spaniards defend themselves (and, unlike many others who attempt to do the same, they do so by using actual facts and legitimate sources) then such people quickly jump out with the "you have a complex" projections. I am not sure who is it that these folks are trying to fool, but such childish tactics do not work. You are not going to "silence" opposition to mistaken claims, stereotypes and propaganda with such cheap psychology.

"Bash Spain & Spaniards" bandwagon... lol, wtf? I even went out of my way to make a compliment to Spain... but your paranoia only allowed you to see the so-called "international agenda to denigrate Spain".

It is notorious that in any History/Anthropology/Genetics forum, if someone makes a completely normal, neutral statement such as "the average Spaniard has dark hair", 50 Spaniards will jump on that person and will say "BUT BUT BUT WE HAVE PLENTY OF BLONDE HAIRED BLUE EYED PEOPLE! THE MOORS NEVER PUT THEIR DIRTY FEET IN THE NORTH OF SPAIN! MOORS NEVER HAD CHILDREN! WE ARE CELTSSS!" etc.

Look, anyone with an IQ over 80 and with a minimally reasonable amount of knowledge knows that there are plenty of tall, blonde haired, blue eyed, freckled people in Spain who could pass for being Vikings (all over Spain, too, not only in the "immaculate Gothic North"). But that doesn't change the fact that in most people's perception, the average Spaniard has dark hair, dark eyes and is likely to have a trace of Arabic blood. Just like there are brown haired, brown eyed Swedes, but in most people's minds, that isn't the average Swedish type.

Could this be some kind of agenda for some people? Hey, I don't doubt that there might be some people out there who might genuinely hold something against Spain, for some reason or another... but my honest impression is that it really isn't the case, in the vast majority of times.

 

[Fire Haired]

I told you many times, in genetics, culture, ethnicity and linguistically, Spain, Italy, Germany, France etc etc have many many differences within their own nations.
Nationality is a BS in this type of discussion.
nationality serves one purpose, to make one's family safe and have a higher standard of living . It does nothing else. If it does not achieve this , then that group or individual should leave this articifical system of the nation he resides in . Why do you think we have immigration?
So, thinking that all spaniards are identical and discussng this against another false term called Italian or German etc is misleading to all. I for one, do not even know what part of Spain you refer to, I don't even know where you are from, so how can I possibily discuss the colour of Spaniards.
Why don't you give a brief summary of what a Spaniard is suppose to be and we can discuss it

No the genetics' of different Spaniards of course is very similar.

 

[Fire Haired]

"Bash Spain & Spaniards" bandwagon... lol, wtf? I even went out of my way to make a compliment to Spain... but your paranoia only allowed you to see the so-called "international agenda to denigrate Spain".

It is notorious that in any History/Anthropology/Genetics forum, if someone makes a completely normal, neutral statement such as "the average Spaniard has dark hair", 50 Spaniards will jump on that person and will say "BUT BUT BUT WE HAVE PLENTY OF BLONDE HAIRED BLUE EYED PEOPLE! THE MOORS NEVER PUT THEIR DIRTY FEET IN THE NORTH OF SPAIN! MOORS NEVER HAD CHILDREN! WE ARE CELTSSS!" etc.

Look, anyone with an IQ over 80 and with a minimally reasonable amount of knowledge knows that there are plenty of tall, blonde haired, blue eyed, freckled people in Spain who could pass for being Vikings (all over Spain, too, not only in the "immaculate Gothic North"). But that doesn't change the fact that in most people's perception, the average Spaniard has dark hair, dark eyes and is likely to have a trace of Arabic blood. Just like there are brown haired, brown eyed Swedes, but in most people's minds, that isn't the average Swedish type.

Could this be some kind of agenda for some people? Hey, I don't doubt that there might be some people out there who might genuinely hold something against Spain, for some reason or another... but my honest impression is that it really isn't the case, in the vast majority of times.

I don't get this if you want to find out who Spanish are or any people genetically just look at DNA. And its a fact the majority of Spaniards do have dark hair and eyes i don't see why there would be an argument about that. The Muslims that conquered Spain were not Arab maybe part Arab and Spanish have little to no blood from those Muslims. central and southern French people have the same hair color and eye color percentages as Iberians. So for Spanish to call themselves Celts which most of their ancestors were before Rome would not mean they would look like people in Scandinavia. Why does height have to be connected with hair color I really doubt it is. People go off stero types that I think go back to ancient Rome. I think pretty much all European countries are around the same height 5'10. Except Denmark, former Yugoslavia, and Netherlands maybe others which are over 6'0. And I have looked at studies of ancient remains the average European till really the 1800's was about 5'6-5'8 same fro the rest of the world except extra short Mongliods in Asia and definitely MesoAmericans. There was only a height difference my centimeters between Germanic tribesmen and Roman centurions and remains of ancient Gauls didn't really show a height difference from Romans even though they were almost always described as tall. I think the average Frenchmen today is 5'9 a little below the European average. If what your saying is true Spanish shouldn't be so sensitive about how they look and try to be like the stero typical northern European I though Iberians were if anything proud about being darker complicated than other Europeans.

 

[Fire Haired]

"Bash Spain & Spaniards" bandwagon... lol, wtf? I even went out of my way to make a compliment to Spain... but your paranoia only allowed you to see the so-called "international agenda to denigrate Spain".

It is notorious that in any History/Anthropology/Genetics forum, if someone makes a completely normal, neutral statement such as "the average Spaniard has dark hair", 50 Spaniards will jump on that person and will say "BUT BUT BUT WE HAVE PLENTY OF BLONDE HAIRED BLUE EYED PEOPLE! THE MOORS NEVER PUT THEIR DIRTY FEET IN THE NORTH OF SPAIN! MOORS NEVER HAD CHILDREN! WE ARE CELTSSS!" etc.

Look, anyone with an IQ over 80 and with a minimally reasonable amount of knowledge knows that there are plenty of tall, blonde haired, blue eyed, freckled people in Spain who could pass for being Vikings (all over Spain, too, not only in the "immaculate Gothic North"). But that doesn't change the fact that in most people's perception, the average Spaniard has dark hair, dark eyes and is likely to have a trace of Arabic blood. Just like there are brown haired, brown eyed Swedes, but in most people's minds, that isn't the average Swedish type.

Could this be some kind of agenda for some people? Hey, I don't doubt that there might be some people out there who might genuinely hold something against Spain, for some reason or another... but my honest impression is that it really isn't the case, in the vast majority of times.

I don't get this if you want to find out who Spanish are or any people genetically just look at DNA. And its a fact the majority of Spaniards do have dark hair and eyes i don't see why there would be an argument about that. The Muslims that conquered Spain were not Arab maybe part Arab and Spanish have little to no blood from those Muslims. central and southern French people have the same hair color and eye color percentages as Iberians. So for Spanish to call themselves Celts which most of their ancestors were before Rome would not mean they would look like people in Scandinavia. Why does height have to be connected with hair color I really doubt it is. People go off stero types that I think go back to ancient Rome. I think pretty much all European countries are around the same height 5'10. Except Denmark, former Yugoslavia, and Netherlands maybe others which are over 6'0. And I have looked at studies of ancient remains the average European till really the 1800's was about 5'6-5'8 same fro the rest of the world except extra short Mongliods in Asia and definitely MesoAmericans. There was only a height difference my centimeters between Germanic tribesmen and Roman centurions and remains of ancient Gauls didn't really show a height difference from Romans even though they were almost always described as tall. I think the average Frenchmen today is 5'9 a little below the European average. If what your saying is true Spanish shouldn't be so sensitive about how they look and try to be like the stero typical northern European I thought Iberians were if anything proud about being darker pigmented than other Europeans.