Do the darker features of some Western Europeans (such as the Welsh, and Black Irish) come from R1b invaders? R1b is the most recent Y-Haplogroup in Europe, being spread by the Indo-Europeans who came from the East (I believe somewhere near present day Iran). Did these invaders bring Middle Eastern features?
Black Irish come from R1b Iranians?
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Fire Haired
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No way is this true. R1b in western Europe is almost all under R1b1a2a1a L11 it was spread with Germanic and Italo Celtic languages starting about 5,000ybp(spread of R1b L11 Germanic Italo Celts in western Europe. At some point R1b1a2a L23, R1b1a2 M269, or R1b1a P297 migrated to Russia or southeast Europe from the mid east and later developed into R1b L11 and spread to western Europe. No way is Iran connected. Yes Indo European languages started and spread east of Ireland but mostly in Europe and no where near Iran. It is really debatable exactly were Indo European languages began but Y DNa and archeology has been able to trace migrations of people who spoke ancestral language to proto Balto Slavic with y DNa R1a1a1b1 Z283 migrating out of Yamna culture in Russia and Ukraine same with Indo Iranians and Tocharian languages with R1a1a1b2 Z93 both spreading out of Yamna starting about 5,000ybp. Yamna was in Russia and Ukraine like I said before and most likely light skinned Europeans. There has been DNA taken from Yamna in southern Russia and Ukraine click here no paper has been released but they did mention they people of the Ukraine-Russia Steppe area not just Yamna culture from 5,000 and 6,000ybp had light skin like modern Europeans and darker eyes than average Europeans at least for Yamna I am not sure about the other culture Catcomb. So the traditional view with the Kurgen hypthiesis would have Indo Europeans begging in Ukraine and Russia area and defintley would not be the source for dark skin in Ireland.
Like I said the Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 father haplogroups at some point had to migrate to Europe and would have been probably mainly brown skinned. But if they had been in Europe for maybe 2,000 years before arriving in western Europe about 5,000ybp they may have been become mainly European and pale skinned. The Gedorsian in K12b has shown a huge connection with R1b in Europe click here which is almost all under R1b1a2a L23 and could mean R1b1a2a L23 in south east Europe came from the same migration originally as R1b1a2a1a L11 in western Europe. Which shows a transfer of Near eastern blood austomally with R1b1a2a L23 in Europe and it is highest in the British isles just like R1b1a2a1a L11 is. It also seems like red hair was spread in western Europe by R1b1a2a1a L11 Germanic italo Celts or at least raised above 1% which would mean when R1b L11 Germanic Italo Celts arrived in western Europe 5,000ybp they were mainly European ancestry.
Like I said the Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 father haplogroups at some point had to migrate to Europe and would have been probably mainly brown skinned. But if they had been in Europe for maybe 2,000 years before arriving in western Europe about 5,000ybp they may have been become mainly European and pale skinned. The Gedorsian in K12b has shown a huge connection with R1b in Europe click here which is almost all under R1b1a2a L23 and could mean R1b1a2a L23 in south east Europe came from the same migration originally as R1b1a2a1a L11 in western Europe. Which shows a transfer of Near eastern blood austomally with R1b1a2a L23 in Europe and it is highest in the British isles just like R1b1a2a1a L11 is. It also seems like red hair was spread in western Europe by R1b1a2a1a L11 Germanic italo Celts or at least raised above 1% which would mean when R1b L11 Germanic Italo Celts arrived in western Europe 5,000ybp they were mainly European ancestry.
Fire Haired
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Like I said the Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 father haplogroups at some point had to migrate to Europe and would have been probably mainly brown skinned. But if they had been in Europe for maybe 2,000 years before arriving in western Europe about 5,000ybp they may have been become mainly European and pale skinned. The Gedorsian in K12b has shown a huge connection with R1b in Europe click here which is almost all under R1b1a2a L23 and could mean R1b1a2a L23 in south east Europe came from the same migration originally as R1b1a2a1a L11 in western Europe. Which shows a transfer of Near eastern blood austomally with R1b1a2a L23 in Europe and it is highest in the British isles just like R1b1a2a1a L11 is. It also seems like red hair was spread in western Europe by R1b1a2a1a L11 Germanic italo Celts or at least raised above 1% which would mean when R1b L11 Germanic Italo Celts arrived in western Europe 5,000ybp they were mainly European ancestry.
I have also wondered if R1b L11 being originally mid eastern Gedorsian being highest in the British isles is were the black Irish come from. Brown skin pops up in my dad's family it comes from his grandpa 100% of his ancestry was from the British isles. There are people in my family as dark as Pakistani who are darker than People from Afghanistan and west of there. In my city and specifically my area there are tons of muslims mainly coming from Pakistani and they always think certain people in my family are Pakistani or at least near eastern. So I have always been wondering were the darkness in the British isles comes from. I was looking at ancient Roman writing when they were conquering the Britons, and said that the Britons had a darker appearance than the Gauls and less yellowish hair and said even some are olive to brown skinned kind of like Iberians. I cant find the quote now but I swear that's what it was saying. I know Welsh have been known to be olive by English and the black British thing really exists. It could just be random and exists in all of Europe or there really could be a people group responsibly.
I wish there was some type of DNA study on this. My dad's Geno 2.0 "who am I" results all of his ancestry is overall mainly Germanic mostly from the country Germany, then lowlands of Scotland, England, and southern Norway. He had 10% more meditreaen and 10% less North European than the average person from each of his ancestral countries. In the Geno 2,0 their only near eastern group is Southwest Asian while med is spread out in Europe and Near east most popular in Near east I think there is a chance that extra med could be Near eastern. My dad is a black Brit or whatever you want to call it I wonder what other dark skinned people from the British isles results would be. In the Irish book of invasions it says the Fir bog the people.
I have also wondered if R1b L11 being originally mid eastern Gedorsian being highest in the British isles is were the black Irish come from. Brown skin pops up in my dad's family it comes from his grandpa 100% of his ancestry was from the British isles. There are people in my family as dark as Pakistani who are darker than People from Afghanistan and west of there. In my city and specifically my area there are tons of muslims mainly coming from Pakistani and they always think certain people in my family are Pakistani or at least near eastern. So I have always been wondering were the darkness in the British isles comes from. I was looking at ancient Roman writing when they were conquering the Britons, and said that the Britons had a darker appearance than the Gauls and less yellowish hair and said even some are olive to brown skinned kind of like Iberians. I cant find the quote now but I swear that's what it was saying. I know Welsh have been known to be olive by English and the black British thing really exists. It could just be random and exists in all of Europe or there really could be a people group responsibly.
I wish there was some type of DNA study on this. My dad's Geno 2.0 "who am I" results all of his ancestry is overall mainly Germanic mostly from the country Germany, then lowlands of Scotland, England, and southern Norway. He had 10% more meditreaen and 10% less North European than the average person from each of his ancestral countries. In the Geno 2,0 their only near eastern group is Southwest Asian while med is spread out in Europe and Near east most popular in Near east I think there is a chance that extra med could be Near eastern. My dad is a black Brit or whatever you want to call it I wonder what other dark skinned people from the British isles results would be. In the Irish book of invasions it says the Fir bog the people.
The physical appearance of R1b bearers has no doubt changed pretty drastically over the millenia, from Mongoloid to Mongoloid-Caucasoid hybrid types to a Caucasoid/Middle Eastern type and finally to a Middle Eastern/Indigenous "Northern" European type.... a process that happened to a greater or lesser extent with all haplogroups, it's true, but R1b have made a particularly long trip, from Central Asia >> Middle East >> Steppes >> Atlantic (and not to mention the R-V88 in Africa), usually as conquerors and consequently having children with the native women as they went on. Which, of course, would result in their constant "change" of phenotype.
Until their M269 stage, when they reached the steppes and met women native of higher latitudes, R1b's were almost definitely "swarthy". But by the time they reached Ireland, after crossing all of Europe and mixing with the native women for thousands of years, I have no reason to believe they were still swarthy, although of course some of its members might have still been. Maybe haplogroups J, G and E (and why not certain mtDNA haplogroups) are better "suspects" for swarthy looks in Northwestern Europe, as these haplogroups arrived in Mediterranean Europe straight from the Middle East, without pooling in the Steppes/Eastern Europe.
Until their M269 stage, when they reached the steppes and met women native of higher latitudes, R1b's were almost definitely "swarthy". But by the time they reached Ireland, after crossing all of Europe and mixing with the native women for thousands of years, I have no reason to believe they were still swarthy, although of course some of its members might have still been. Maybe haplogroups J, G and E (and why not certain mtDNA haplogroups) are better "suspects" for swarthy looks in Northwestern Europe, as these haplogroups arrived in Mediterranean Europe straight from the Middle East, without pooling in the Steppes/Eastern Europe.
I guess this would be the question I am asking. Did some Irish people retain features of their Middle Eastern ancestors? Clearly not most of them, but do the minority who we call "Black Irish" retain darker features from their Near Eastern Ancestors? Or does it come from somewhere else?
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You cant take J,G, and E in northwest Europe and look for swathy or whatever ones. Y DNA is just a direct male lineage Adolf Hitler had E1b1b and Y DNA E was originally sub sharan Africans he definitely doesn't look black. Its like what u said in the begging. It gets so annoying of how little people know about the human family tree. So many people assume R1 is Caucasian when actulley originally it would have been in Mongliods. I don't think you can say all R1b spread is conquest deifntley Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 but besides that we don't know. The G2a, E1b1b, J1, and J2 in northwest Europe had to go through eastern then central then northern Europe so not straight from the near east.
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What do you mean their near eastern ancestors obviously their ancestors are mainly European. The dark skin in the British isles might not be unique to them just it is more known. I doubt it has nothing to do with R1b because by the time it hit Ireland as R1b1a2a1a2c L21 and R1b1a2a1a2a Df27 around 4,000ybp it's lineage had already been in Europe for nearly 4,000 years. I guess this would be the question I am asking. Did some Irish people retain features of their Middle Eastern ancestors? Clearly not most of them, but do the minority who we call "Black Irish" retain darker features from their Near Eastern Ancestors? Or does it come from somewhere else?[/QUOTE]"]globe13, skull shape and other physical features, mtDNA, Y DNA, etc. Show Europeans, north Africans, and near easterns are in the same Caucasin family. People from Antolia-Caucus-all the way to Iran are more related to Europeans than north Africans their mtDNA lineages are more connected and most importantly Iranians have about 45% west Asian in globe13 which is the brother to the only European group called North Euro which on average is about 50% in Europe. Both North Africans and Near easterns have brownish skin this means most likely Europeans ancestors had the same skin color.
All of the different type of palness in Europeans skin, hair, and eye color exists in mid easterns and probably is not from European inter marriage(Origin of European palness(skin, hair, and eye color[/URL]). There are some domintely pale skinned near eastern people like Druze, Caucus ethnic groups, and Samartians. But European palness is more than skin color it is also hair and eye color. Its crazy that around the Atlantic Baltic most people have yellowish hair and blue eyes the change from all brown eyed and dark haired to that had to happen at some point. I think Europeans ancestors became totally pale skinned and very light haired and eyed separately but for the same reasons probably some type of adaption. I think happened before the last glacial maximum started 26,600ybp but maybe during it I don't know it is really impossible to say when it originated. I really don't understand how evolution is possible how Europeans ancestors could go from brown skinned to what they are now.
Alan
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R1b was never Mongoloid to begin with and Central Asia wasn't either before the Turkic and Mongol migrations. Also R1b did not start in Central Asia but Southwest of the Caspian where it entered as R1* and mutated to R1b.
You come to wrong conclusions because R is related to Q. But since we know P(ancestor of R and Q) ultimately originated from IJK and from what we have found out about American Indian tribes Q Haplogroup being more ancient than Mongolian Q and them being more "Caucasian" than modern East Asians, proves actually that Q and most Mongoloids were once Caucasoid and changed their physical features to what they are today.
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R though did probably have somewhat Mongoloid features. Features that developed to resist the cold. Like small noses and round faces. The two people that have the highest rates of R (slavs and celts) both are stereotyped as pug-nosed and chubby-faced.
Well maybe you're right... keeping in mind that we are all just speculating here. R1b is thought to have arisen east of the Caspian, so it's definitely possible that the original R1b carriers were at least partly Mongoloid (although fully Mongoloid would be unlikely, I'll agree on that). My wild guess would be that they probably looked somewhat like modern-day Uzbeks or Kazakhs or Tatars. As they went on their long westward trek, they picked up more and more Caucasoid genes, until becoming Irish redheads at the end of their journey.
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As for the origin of "black" Irish, no one really knows, but we can make a few assumptions.
The first assumption is that indigenous, Paleolithic Northern Europeans were probably all fair skinned and light haired like the Baltic type they most match with genetically today.
If that is true, then originally all of Ireland was probably fair in complexion and the "black" comes from invaders. The most likely suspects for this invasion are
1. Linearbandkeramilk Culture (LBK) that settled in Central Europe from Anatolia during the Neolithic around 5500 bc. These first farmers no doubt brought dark and maybe curly hair first into Central Europe, and maybe the British Islands too -- but their influence there was small.
2. The second likeliest suspect was the Megalith builders who, around 4000 to 3000 bc, linked the Atlantic seaboard from Iberia to Ireland and beyond.
3. The third and most likely suspect for bringing darker phenotypes into the British Islands were the Bell Beakers. The Beaker invasion from Iberia to Ireland and Britain around 2500 bc was massive, and we know they carried R1B. Were they swarthy, R1b-carrying boatmen from Iberia and the Eastern Mediterranean settling in fair, red-headed Ireland? No one knows for sure.
We just have suspects.
The first assumption is that indigenous, Paleolithic Northern Europeans were probably all fair skinned and light haired like the Baltic type they most match with genetically today.
If that is true, then originally all of Ireland was probably fair in complexion and the "black" comes from invaders. The most likely suspects for this invasion are
1. Linearbandkeramilk Culture (LBK) that settled in Central Europe from Anatolia during the Neolithic around 5500 bc. These first farmers no doubt brought dark and maybe curly hair first into Central Europe, and maybe the British Islands too -- but their influence there was small.
2. The second likeliest suspect was the Megalith builders who, around 4000 to 3000 bc, linked the Atlantic seaboard from Iberia to Ireland and beyond.
3. The third and most likely suspect for bringing darker phenotypes into the British Islands were the Bell Beakers. The Beaker invasion from Iberia to Ireland and Britain around 2500 bc was massive, and we know they carried R1B. Were they swarthy, R1b-carrying boatmen from Iberia and the Eastern Mediterranean settling in fair, red-headed Ireland? No one knows for sure.
We just have suspects.
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My Irish friend is a black Irish, he and his father state the name comes from the Spanish armada sailors which where not butchered by the Irish after their ships sank rounding the north of Scotland and running down past Ireland to get back to Spain.
It refers to their olive skin.
It refers to their olive skin.
No there is no link. Actually I would expect Neolithic Western Europeans to have had darker pigmentation than present-day Western Europeans. Neolithic populations originated in the Middle East and North Africa. R1b originated in Central Asia before passing through the Middle East to the Pontic Steppe, where R1b men mixed extensively with blond and blue-eyed Northeast European women. I would think that the Indo-Europeans introduced blue eyes, fair hair and red hair to Europe, or at least re-introduced them where they had been overridden by Neolithic immigrants.
The Black Irish just inherited more Neolithic phenotypes than other Northern Europeans. That is because they were the furthest from the source of the Indo-European migration (along with Iberians) and therefore inherited the most diluted autosomal DNA with their R1b. R1b remained unchanged all the way from the steppes to the Atlantic fringe of Europe, but their appearance became increasingly similar to the local population they conquered as they interbred with local women. Besides, England and Scotland got a fairly recent introgression of fair pigmentation from Anglo-Saxon and Viking migrations, which, in Ireland was mostly limited to coastal areas, especially in the Pale and in eastern Ulster.
I imagine the Neolithic inhabitants of Britain and Ireland as having straight black hair and being both long-faced and long-headed, like modern north-west Iberians. This kind of phenotype reminds me of Christopher Lee (Saruman in Lords of the Ring), who could easily pass for an Castilian or Leonese.
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That is also my understanding, in 1588 the Spanish Armada crossed the top of Scotland but did not go far enough to the West before turning south, consequently they hit the coast of western Ireland there are, of course, other theories
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Alan
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According to Maciamo but this is one a the very few points were I disagree because m343 is much more common in the Near East and in Central Asia it was only found in higher proportion among Kurdish settlers from Western Asia. My own theory is that R1a is from East of the Caspian while R1b from Southwest of it. P probably in Central Asia while the Grandparent K South of the Caspian (in North Iran) which split earlier from IJ in the Zagros mountains.
And about R* people having some mongoloid features, well compared to other West Eurasian haplogroups surely they did because they are somehow close related to Mongoloids. But it was rather ancient, archaic yDna P features which can be found among Caucasians as well mongoloid people. They never looked like Tatars, Uzbeks or Kazakhs because we know from their history as well autosomal DNA that they are a relatively recent mixture of Iranians (R1a, R1b, J2) and Mongols (East Asian mtDNA).
And I also do not believe that fair skin and light hair was so common in Paleolithic Europeans and the "Black Irish" are the result of Neolithic admixture. I rather believe that the Neolithic lifestyle was crucial for the development of light features.
That's extremely unlikely. I don't see why Renaissance Spaniards would not seek to return to Spain after being shipwrecked. Besides, they wouldn't have adapted well in a hostile land, and surely wouldn't have found any mate to reproduce. Perhaps just a few isolated cases, but nothing to influence a whole country's gene pool. Unless there were like 500,000 of them...
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Tacitus - Agricola XI
The dark complexion of the Silures, their usually curly hair, and the fact that Spain is the opposite shore to them, are an evidence that Iberians of a former date crossed over and occupied these parts.
Clearly the 'Black Irish' must be from the pre-Indo-European Iberian stock (Bell-Beaker culture);
Not from the Indo-European Kelts;
Rev. John Evans - A Popular History of the Ancient Britons (1901)
There certainly was one race, denominated the Iberians, a non-Aryan people, a remnant of whom existed in the time of Caesar as the Silurian tribes of South Wales - mainly in 'Monmouthshire' and the adjoining districts. When the Celts came they found these people in the possession of the country and war ensued. The Celts ultimately conquered the aboriginal Iberians and finally destroyed or absorbed them in the course of time.
The dark complexion of the Silures, their usually curly hair, and the fact that Spain is the opposite shore to them, are an evidence that Iberians of a former date crossed over and occupied these parts.
Clearly the 'Black Irish' must be from the pre-Indo-European Iberian stock (Bell-Beaker culture);
Not from the Indo-European Kelts;
Rev. John Evans - A Popular History of the Ancient Britons (1901)
There certainly was one race, denominated the Iberians, a non-Aryan people, a remnant of whom existed in the time of Caesar as the Silurian tribes of South Wales - mainly in 'Monmouthshire' and the adjoining districts. When the Celts came they found these people in the possession of the country and war ensued. The Celts ultimately conquered the aboriginal Iberians and finally destroyed or absorbed them in the course of time.
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You could be right about Neolithic west Europeans being tannish. Because Otzie and even Gok4 and other farmers from funnel beaker culture in south Sweden from about 5,000ybp austomal DNA is closest to Sardine. It seems to me there was a farmer race or whatever you want to call it in Europe or at least western Europe which sardine are the last true ones left(Sardine last of the European farmer race). Since the farmers and hunter gathers in Europe were so genetically different click here. Everyone who farmed may have really been very unmixed with the hunter gathers and the spread of farming could be the conquering of hunter gathers. That sounds kind of crazy and unlikely but Gok4 and the other farmers in south Sweden are pretty good evidence. If it is true then Neolithic west Europeans would look just like modern Sardine people. But the Indo Europeans were not one unifed group of people they were also farmers. 5,000 and 6,000ybp remains of Yamna people in southern Ukriane and Russia had darker eyes than average Europeans while proto Indo Iranians and Tocherians? who migrated to Asia from Yamna culture around that time were mainly light eyed.
Red hair and fair hair are not connected their distributions in Europe are totally different correct me if I am wrong. Look at Finnish non Indo European only about 5% R1a1a1b1 Z283 from proto Balto Slavic Corded ware culture and very little Germanic blood from Sweden but they have majority fair hair and eyes and very little red hair. I think figuring out the history of hair and eye colors in Europe throughout history and in different pre historic people is extremely hard to do and the only way to find out is ancient DNA. The distribution of North Euro in globe13 correlates pretty well with the distribution of fair hair and North Euro was dominate in European hunter gather remains and is the only group to originate in Europe. So I think a high amount of fair hair in Europe goes back to the Paleoithic but not red hair. I think the black Irish or actulley it should be called black British because there are black Scots and Welsh. There is a chance their not unqiue at all I have seen many surprisingly dark white people. But since the even the ancient Romans noticed it might be unique to Insular Celts. Based on DNA some of my family members who are black brits I think it Is some type of near eastern inter marriage maybe from Neolithic.
At one time Europeans ancestors were as dark as Iraqis how and why did they change. I don't really understand how evolution is even possible and how they would help in survival at all. Maybe the Black Irish or whatever are dark for the same reason Iraqi or west Asians are dark and it is European. It is really unique how European people don't have one hair color and eye color or like mid eastern people were maybe 0.1% don't have dark hair and eyes why did this happen.
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That sounds like total BS what do the Aryans have to do with Europe. The Aryans I guess are also the Indo Iranians who migrated out of Yamna culture in Russia about 5,000ybp into Asia and spread from there. We know at least the ones who eventulley migrated to Iran and also ones who migrated to India about 3,500ybp called themselves Aryans because of ancient writing. Almost all Europeans have 0% Aryan ancestry maybe some in far eastern Europe were different Indo Iranian tribes like Sycthians migrated to in the iron age and people around the area they originated probably have similar ancestry over 5,000 years ago. Why would the black Irish be from Iberia. Iberians are not even that dark when you compare them to non Europeans. Who knows were the very rare occurrence of brown skin in the British isles comes from I doubt there is a simple answer.
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Y DNA R was Mongliod that's true but through inter marriage R1b originated probably with Caucasians around Iran. The only R1b branch's to not originate in the Near east are R1b1a1 M73(Russia and central asia) and Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 (west Europe). The R1b in Europe is almost all under R1b1a2a L23. R1b1a2a L23* and R1b1a2a2 Z2103 are what take up most r1b in saoutheast Europe and Iraq, caucus, Antolia, Iran area.
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