R1b-Z194

[geiserich]

R1b-Z194 is an interesting clade downstream of R1b-Z192 in the R1b-U152 haplogroup. So far three persons have tested positive in the Geno 2.0 project. (two from British Isles and one Italian). Moreover two persons in the 1000 Genome Project are positive for this marker (both Toscany, Italy). Francalacci found 75 R1b-Z192 in Sardina. Does anybody know if he tested Z194 too? Have anybody a theory of the time and origin of R1b-Z192 and R1b-Z-194?

[adamo]

R1b u152+ is actually a very common north italian subclade; I would imagine it being found in men such as Alessandro diamanti ( born in Prato, extreme north-central Tuscany, Emanuele Giaccherini (born in Bibbiena, Tuscany) Riccardo Montolivo (Caravaggio, Lombardy) Christian Maggio ( Montecchio Maggiore, Veneto), and Marco veratti (Pescara,Abruzzo)...all these types inhabit relative "Gallic settlement areas", regions that received multiple successive waves of invasion of west-central Europeans, many arriving via the Switzerland/France region to the west of the italian alps.

[adamo]

I would bet at least a few of those guys belong to R-u152 and enough of them, even mos,t, may belong to R1b.

[geiserich]

Does nobody in this forum know, if Francalacci, who found 75 R1b-Z192 in his study, tested any subclades of R1b-Z192, especially R1b-Z194 or his "brother" R1b-Z193?

[brianco]

Hi geiserich

I don't see any Z194+ from Italy, only UK and unknown origin

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

Weren't you 'close' to Crosier on your STR markers?

I know Z194 is available from FTDNA if Geno is too expensive!

R1b-Z194 is an interesting clade downstream of R1b-Z192 in the R1b-U152 haplogroup. So far three persons have tested positive in the Geno 2.0 project. (two from British Isles and one Italian). Moreover two persons in the 1000 Genome Project are positive for this marker (both Toscany, Italy). Francalacci found 75 R1b-Z192 in Sardina. Does anybody know if he tested Z194 too? Have anybody a theory of the time and origin of R1b-Z192 and R1b-Z-194?

[geiserich]

Hi Brianco,

I`m a member of the same clade as Crosier, because of some off-modal STR values.
There is an Italian R1b-Z194 ("Placa", Palermo Sicily) in Geno 2.0.

Does you or anybody else know which SNP or STR values were tested by Francalacci in his famous Sardinian study?

[Nobody1]

Does nobody in this forum know, if Francalacci, who found 75 R1b-Z192 in his study, tested any subclades of R1b-Z192, especially R1b-Z194 or his "brother" R1b-Z193?

Sieht (nach meinen kenntnissen) nicht so aus;

R. Rocca - Francalacci et al 2013


Aber so gut kenn ich die studie jetzt auch nicht;
Vielleicht müssten sie da den Herrn Rocca persönlich fragen;
Der ist aber in einem anderen forum aktiv - Anthrogenica
http://www.anthrogenica.com/forum.php

[brianco]

Hope you have some luck

Hi Brianco,

I`m a member of the same clade as Crosier, because of some off-modal STR values.
There is an Italian R1b-Z194 ("Placa", Palermo Sicily) in Geno 2.0.

Does you or anybody else know which SNP or STR values were tested by Francalacci in his famous Sardinian study?

[geiserich]

There are now 15 surnames in R1b-Z194. Six of them originated in the British Isles. 4 are from Germany. 4 others have their ancestors in Italy. The last is especially interesting, because he is the only R1b-U152 (L2-) in whole Arabia (Palastinian territory). I suppose the clade R1b-Z194 originated or was spread by the ancient Romans. Does anybody have a theory for this interesting subclade of R1b-U152?

[brianco]

Thanks geiserich

May I ask where you saw this information? It would be good to see it

There are now 15 surnames in R1b-Z194. Six of them originated in the British Isles. 4 are from Germany. 4 others have their ancestors in Italy. The last is especially interesting, because he is the only R1b-U152 (L2-) in whole Arabia (Palastinian territory). I suppose the clade R1b-Z194 originated or was spread by the ancient Romans. Does anybody have a theory for this interesting subclade of R1b-U152?

[geiserich]

3 were found in Geno 2.0 (2x British; 1x Italian), 2 were found in 1000 genomes Project (2x Italian), 5 are in the Group B1 in the FTDNA R1b-U152 Project (4x British; 1 German). The other (1x Italian, 3x German, 1x Palestinian) were found by me, because of the characteristic DYS-values.

[adamo]

pit seems that two major waves of Celtic invaders affected Italy's genetic composition; one arrived from the Parisian basin and from the Marne/Moselle region on the border of northeastern France and northwestern Germany. Best way to define it would be the champagne region of France and the trier region of Germany. Another cohort of similar celts in much smaller numbers arrived from the Czech Republic and Germany border area. Also, it would seem a good way to trace the origins of these Celtic invaders is to trace the name of the capital they step in northern Italy; mediolanum. Although the original Insubres that developed directly from the golasecca culture were long established before bellovesus and his Gauls invaded, the arrival of bellovesus saw the creation of a capital city of the Insubres. "mediolanum" is only found in two places outside of Italy; both are in France. There is Mediolanum Aulercorum (today known as Evreux) in northern France; this has always historically been Aulerci territory (with the cenomani near by).Ironically, both these tribes also migrated to Italy under bellovesus, as many other Gallic tribes did; the arverni,aedui,ambarri,senones,lingones,cenomani,au lerci,bituriges, carnutes all migrated to italy from France; other possibilities are the Helvetii, Santones, Veneti, Volcae (Volscian?) Parisii etc. the other Mediolanum is Mediolanum Santonum, nearby the Bituriges and Santones people who own the city

[MOESAN]

are you sure all these gaulish tribes emigrated to Italy? heard only of a few of them... and it seems to me Champagne/Marne and Trier Eiffel celtic tribes of Iron Age were newcomers in Gallia and Belgica, these regions being target from W-central Europe more than sources -

[geiserich]

I`ve found out that Francalacci in his famous Sardinian study tested for Z193 and Z194, but none of his 75 R1b-Z192 are positive for this markers.

[adamo]

It was noted by Livy from Gallia cisalpina that historically; 1. The senones, aedui, ambarri and Bituriges Cubii of central Gaul migrated to Italy. The Arverni went too but they were from south-central France (modern day Auvergne). In western Gaul, the Carnutes and aulerci/cenomani people are confirmed to have invaded Italy; a few people even suspect the Armorican Veneti of having arrived in northeastern Italy in the Venice region, but this is heavily debated. Oft the eastern Gauls on the German-French border, the lingones also made the voyage. The latins themselves were celts similar to aedui and Helvetii people according to historical sources; the Boii may have either migrated via Czech Republic to Italy or Czech Republic to Switzerland then ItalyItaly

[adamo]

Look at maps on google of "ancient Italy" and find the northern portion of the country. Then look at a map of ancient Gaul. The north Italy map should have as tribal names among them ; cenomani, Boii, senones, lingones, aulerci/cenomani etc. among those celts that settled the already founded Insubria many were also Biturgies, arverni, aedui, ambarri and the other tribes I listed.

[adamo]

Livy on bellovesus and the Gauls;
About the passage of the Gauls into Italy we have received the following account. Whilst Tarquinius Priscus was king of Rome, the supreme power amongst the Celts, who formed a third part of the whole of Gaul, was in the hands of the Bituriges; they used to furnish the king for the whole Celtic race. Ambigatus was king at that time, a man eminent for his own personal courage and prosperity as much as for those of his dominions. During his sway the harvests were so abundant and the population increased so rapidly in Gaul that the government of such vast numbers seemed almost impossible. He was now an old man, and anxious to relieve his realm from the burden of over-population. With this view he signified his intention of sending his sister's sons Bellovesus and Segovesus, both enterprising young men, to settle in whatever locality the gods should by augury assign to them. They were to invite as many as wished to accompany them, sufficient to prevent any nation from repelling their approach. When the auspices were taken, the Hercynian forest was assigned to Segovesus; to Bellovesus the gods gave the far pleasanter way into Italy. He invited the surplus population of six tribes —the Bituriges, the Averni, the Senones, the Aedui, the Ambarri, the Carnutes, and the Aulerci. Starting with an enormous force of horse and foot, he came to the Tricastini.Beyond stretched the barrier of the Alps, and I am not at all surprised that they appeared insurmountable, for they had never yet been surmounted by any route, as far at least as unbroken memory reaches, unless you choose to believe the fables about Hercules. Whilst the mountain heights kept the Gauls fenced in as it were there, and they were looking everywhere to see by what path they could cross the peaks which reached to heaven and so enter a new world, they were also prevented from advancing by a sense of religious obligation, for news came that some strangers in quest of territory were being attacked by the Salyi. These were Massilians who had sailed from Phocaea. The Gauls, looking upon this as an omen of their own fortunes, went to their assistance and enabled them to fortify the spot where they had first landed, without any interference from the Salyi. After crossing the Alps by the passes of the Taurini and the valley of the Douro, they defeated the Tuscans in battle not far from the Ticinus, and when they learnt that the country in which they had settled belonged to the Insubres, a name also borne by a canton of the Haedui, they accepted the omen of the place and built a city which they called Mediolanum.

[adamo]

It seems he forgot to mention the cenomani and lingones and carnutes in his text t don't worry; their eventual presence on the italian peninsula is historically well attested.

[adamo]

Ambicatus; an ancient Celtic figure that links the populations of France and northern Italy;

Ambicatus (or Ambigatos in Gaulish) is mentioned in the founding legend of Mediolanum (Milan) by Livy, whose source is Timagenes, as a king of the Bituriges, "kings of the world" as their name suggests, who ruled over the Celts in central Gaul, between Hispania and Germany, in the days of Tarquinius Priscus (the fifth century BCE). Ambicatus sent his sister's sons, Bellovesus and Segovesus, with many followers drawn from numerous tribes, to found new colonies in the Hercynian forest and in northern Italy, in the early sixth century BC. Bellovesus founded Mediolanum. If Ambicatus was an authentic historical figure, rather than a construct to express the linked origins of Celtic tribes in northern Italy and beyond the Alps, most likely he was the leader of the most powerful tribe in a military alliance, from which the Celtic colonizers of Italy were apparently drawn.

[adamo]

Ambiguities was king of the French tribe that spear-headed the legendary italian invasions;'he was of the central French bituriges Cubii tribe; bituriges meaning "kings of the world" in a Gaulish variety of Celtic language. The Celts of north Italy were drawn in origin to ambicatus and bellovesus; members of the bituriges Cubii tribe.

[adamo]

The total number of tribes that made the movement were noted as "at least six surplus tribes" indicating as many as 8 or more tribes made the move. They were surprised upon arriving in Insubria (central Lombardy at the time) and finding that this word was the name of a canton/region within Aedui tribal territory, so they decided to keep the regional name as Insubria as the aedui were also among the invasion group.

[adamo]

So it seems the Aedui had already migrated to north Italy maybe hundreds or thousands (doubt thousands) of years before bellovesus (after bellovesus the Gaul Brennus would invade Italy, again.) Also, legends state that the Latini tribe themselves were considered brothers to the aedui of central France and lingones of eastern France. The latins were of the same Gallic variety having made the migration looooong before but still being linked as eponymous brothers of aedui and lingones people.

[adamo]

Brennus though is another story; Bellovesus and his Gauls received no threat from roman; the latins allowed them to settle down and integrate as allies; but it wasn't that simple. Certain tribes were hostile and prone to betray the Romans. When the Romans were in control the Celtic tribes of the north simply lived a happily assimilated life. When Rome was in danger though, the Gauls were more than happy to just watch Rome burn or make it promises and deceive it at the last second. The Insubres and Boii were on and off hostile towards Rome depending on how strong or weak Rome was and who was fighting it at the time. Brennus would arrive 100 years after Bellovesus. Brennus was originally of the Senones tribe of north-central France. His people would invade the Adriatic coast of Marche in central Italy; setting up colonies such as senigallia (Gaul of the senones). From here, the senones would attack the latins. His was a pointless mission; parading across the italian countryside almost as if to show who was more macho, and burnt Rome to the ground. When the Romans asked him what they could do to make him leave without killing or destroying more, he noted that he wanted to be payed in much "gold and women". His wishes were granted, and Rome was spared. This would be the very last error the Gauls would commit; the next time both nations were to meet it would be under Cesar near the Helvetii territory, were would begin one of history's most cruel genocides. Never again would the Gauls penetrate Italy, and between 2 and 3 million Gauls would be massacred by a tactically superior army that functioned on precision and superior militarism; a military machine. Employing testudo formations and such military techniques that would see Rome prevail through history.