When did R1b get to Ireland?

Ireland mythology is full of "invasions" and even if distorded, I believe it proves ancient irish people had some "souvenirs" of past, mixed with some classical+christian "false corrections" -
anthropology (not simply linked to male HGs %s) show us a mix of ligneages which is not disproved by archeology nor history -
people were there before agricultors - agricultors came apparently through North : from where? maybe N-France, Brittany (some megalithical details: pottery and structure of megaliths) seem proving it) but that doesn' t contradict a remote ancient iberian origin : "iberian" can be mesolithic and neolithic in Ireland and what happened in Iberia happened also in France!!! (same different paleo-/meso-/neo-lithic men, same Celts, only proportions varied )-
La Tène seems more a cultural osmose than a colonisation there, but we have names given by the myth: Fir Galiain, Fir Bolg, Fir Domnain: they evocate gallic/brittonic and belgic celtic tribes, and with Ptolemeios we have tribes territories (the most in S and E) as those of Brigantes, Domnain, Menapii + maybe germanic or belgic-germanic: Cauci - datation? Bronze??? very possible -
so Y-R1b is the dominent male ligneage, OK, but surely by some bias - Bronze Age? at least, maybe older - were the Y-I2a2 and I2a1b in Ireland (more in North) before Y-R1b??? hard to say: but I could believe some BBs or Food Vessels were there before labelled Celts (or were Celts?); some exchanges took place long ago between Scotland and N-Ireland, on the two directions, inextricable (, first peasants, Beakers, Cruithni...) - before Celts, I wrote? but were all Y-R1b celtophone people?
the hardest thing (if not impossible!) is to put dates and order into the rubbish chronology and details of the mythology -
the phenotypes in ireland show ties with Mediterranea-Iberia, western and continental France and northern Europe, among them 'archaic' trends...
 
sorry sorry...
surely first agricultors or following ones can have put their feet in ireland, maybe through Britain - but I did a mistake: the most evident link between today Brittany, ex-western Aremorica, was during the Bronze Age, in the 'wedge tombs' area (2000/1500 BC) of counties CLARE, CORK, and N-CONNAUGHT (MAYO?) -
these people in Ireland had similar tombs and pottery (Bell Beaker) as in Brittany at same time - at this time Cork, Kerry and S-Ulster had also 'circle stones' that evocate to me the Wessex, linked to the first Tumuli culture of Brittany, being seemingly Wessex C- a phase following the Bell beaker period in S-Britain (2500 BC? a bit later?) ... circle stones: maybe the mix of megalithers culture and copper-bronze newcomers (new at that time)-
the Wessex and Aremorica Tumuli cultures showed tight links with the Rhine mouth cultures of the time, as did before, the british Bell Beaker aspect (mix corded)-

for the fun I'm trying to link the "invaders" of the Ireland saga (mythology) to historical events: a play, because others tried it before me and had broken their teeth!
good afternoon - enderwezh mad deoc'h - and sorry again for my approximations.
 
A lot of us folk who aren't R1b are nevertheless fascinated by it, because it's so widespread, and because its story hasn't yet been fully unravelled despite all the attention R1b receives. IMO, these discussions about when R1b arrived in Ireland, etc., will remain unresolved until we actually have some samples of old Y DNA for places like Ireland. I gather that it's very expensive and difficult, and sometimes just plain impossible to get really old Y DNA, but I think that a lot of arguments concerning Y DNA, especially regarding R1b, will remain unresolved until there's some actually DNA data to rely on. However, IMO, there are two problems with actually knowing the answer to a question like "when did R1b arrive in Ireland". The answer may not be what we were expecting, and some of us may have to give up our most cherished theories about the subject.
 
concerning Y-R-L21/S145 (my one) it is sure it never found birth in Ireland! it is N-W "european" today and knew a good success in Ireland arrived there either from France or Britain, or from both of these countries - L222 is typically irish and is, as said by a lot of people, a founder effect result -
L21/2145 is present in Romance Switzerland more than among alemannic Swiss people (scarce sample) - and it reaches 18% among Basques of Spain, what is unexpected compared to the remnant of Iberia, and hwat is more, these results are calculated on big enough samples - I wait more surveys about France...
the question of chronology of arrivals chronology opposing R1b to I2a1, I2a2 in Ireland ad Britain is still well alive!!!
 
adamo said:
The thing is, if the British really had colonized Brittany in the post-roman era wouldn't there be more R1b-S21 in that region as it is quite frequent in English males? Or did the Germanic tribes such as angles,Saxons,Jutes associated with the R1b-U106 migrate from holland/Germany possibly Denmark (certainly the two others) after this migration you speak of?
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the British (Brythonic Celts, R1b-L21) migrated into Brittany to ESCAPE from incoming Germanic tribes into England who would have been carrying R1b-S21 in large number.

The Germanic tribes largely carried R1b-S21 into England, so when the British Celts migrated into Brittany, it was at a time when there were few carriers of R1b-S21 actually living in England.

The British Celts would have largely carried R1b-L21 into Brittany. Few, if any of them, would have had R1b-S21 Y-DNA, which is largely seen as a Germanic marker among the English today.
 
Jackson: Thanks for your post. It certainly puts things in perspective. But one question I have, is this. What were the origins of R1b? Many say that R1b has been found in North East Europe/Asia. Do we have sufficient evidence yet to pinpoint this?
 
Can anyone tell me what hg this is:

Marker DYS393 DYS390 DYS19** DYS391 DYS385 DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389I DYS392 DYS389II***
Value 14 23 15 10 13-16 11 15 12 12 11 28

Markers on top, values under, each DY has it's exact value under. Dys393 = 14, dys390= 23, dys19** = 15, dys391 = 10, dys385 = 13-16, dys426 = 11, dys388 = 15, dys439 = 12, dys389i = 12, dys392 = 11, dys389ii*** = 28

14,23,15,10,13-16,11,15,12,12,11,28 . What haplogroup is this?
 
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Can anyone please help or refer me to a specialist ?
 
whatever haplogroup it is there are literally zero matches on ftdna, can anyone help?
 
R1b-L21 came into Ireland around 4300-4100 YBP.
It reached the isles in the Early Bronze Age, during the Bell Beaker culture. It has been tested in early remains in Ireland. All the samples.
 
JQP4545 said:
So what about the Mesolithic Paleolithic Irish? Could they have migrated from Spain to Ireland after the Ice Ages? Some ancient historical accounts say that the Irish were a small, dark people from the Iberian Peninsula, so could these original inhabitants have moved up from Spain and they been conquered by the invading Celts 2,500-4,500 years bp?
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If we remember the ancient names for Spain Iberia , and for Ireland Ivernia , there is an obvious connection . All the Atlantic coast form Spain to Ireland share the maximum proportion of R1b , this is not a coincidence . I would say that those people were very early celts , as more in land , Spain , Gaul and England were later coming Celts , and the language was different . This is why Gaulish , close to Latin was also spoke in East England ( Same Gaulish Belgian tribes ) , is different form the remained Celtic languages of the extreme west of Europe .
 
They are possible ties between Iberia and Ivernia (but this last one was spelled Hibernia by Latins), "possible" but very uncertain.
No, Gaulish was not so close to Latin as said by someones, and the most of it has been explained with the help of Old Irish and current Brittonic Celtic languages! If we rely on Julius Caesar, Brittons and Gauls didn't need inrerprets in their relations and Gaulish Druids had regular exchanges with Britton Druids, if I recall well.
What we see is that some bunch s of Y-R1b-L21 seem having leeked to Northern Iberia when some bunches of Y-R1b-DF27 seem having climbed to western Armorica (today brittany) and Brittain.
To deduce where Celtic came from into the Isles, and when, is still hypothesis spite I rather think Celtic is older than Hallstatt.
 
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