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Thread: R1a Japanese distribution & Kofun period?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    R1a Japanese distribution & Kofun period?

    GR&A: Please, no comments about ginger warriors!! Serious responses only.


    Let me pose the question outright:

    Does anyone know of a large study on Japanese Y haplotypes and the percentage of R1a in Japan?


    I was reading and looking at some maps in Genebase and noticed trace amounts of R1a throughout Japan, specifically concentrated in Kofun strongholds such as the Yamato area.

    Here's the background:
    The incipient phase of the Jomon period ceramic pottery begins about 10k b.c. and continues until the Yayoi period, being introduced from China or the Korean penninsula. I spent some time recently at the Japanese national museum and the Jomon pottery is incredibly fine, even during the incipient phase. The Yayoi brought bronze and wet rice farming and this may have involved waves extending for several hundred years from the mainland. The Kofun statuettes were a little surprising though, in that many of them appear clearly 'not local'.

    So..

    The Kofun period brings a radical change to Japanese culture. The Kofun period warriors are typically buried in 'Kurgan style' burials. Above the graves are terracotta men with curly hair, deep eys, pointed beards, witch hats, tunics and daggers attached at the hips. They are a horse culture and introduce iron during this period. This period brought a clan based warrior warrior chiefs and marshall law. As the period progresses, you being to see the introduction of Buddahism by way of the Yamato clan.

    Now first, there are trace amounts of R1b apparently in Japan. I would entirely expect this to be from 500 years of gene flow through trade. Certainly some missionaries and traders settled and married here.
    R1a, on the other hand, seems more difficult to place in a historical context. I would expect some trace R1a to enter Japan via Buddahist evangelization, with inputs coming from India, Southeast Asia or the Steppes from where it mostly spread throughout Asia.

    I'm curious if the Kofun culture originated from one of the historical steppe cultures such as the WuHu (Xiongnu, Di, Qiang, etc) in North Eastern Siberia. Many artifacts in Korea and Japan, such as traditional headgear, appear to have some connection with the Siberian Steppes..

    Long story short, I haven't been able to find anything useful on dna analysis or mapping of Japan. Most seem to treat Japan as an open and closed book. Looking for more informaion....

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    R1a and R1b are not genes that ever affected Japanese gene flow in any way; about 37-40% of Japanese men re D, about 50% are O ( O2b is 31% of Japanese males O3 is 18%).

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Never heard of R1a in Japan, but I wouldn't be surprised since Hammer et al. (2006) found 0.4% of unspecified haplogroup R in Japan (n=259), 1% in Southeast Asia (n=683), and 3.2% in Northeast Asia (n=441). It would make sense that this R be R1a brought by Bronze Age Indo-Europeans to Mongolia, which infiltrated most of East Asia in the ensuing 4000 years. The Koreans and Japanese both speak an Altaic language (distantly) related to Mongolian, and that language evolved after the Indo-European migrations. The Korean invasion of Japan only happened 2500 years ago. The Japanese otherwise have 3% of C3 and 0.5% of Q, both typical of Mongolian populations. So 0.1% to 0.5% of R1a wouldn't be out of place.

    I also noticed that the Japanese from the Dodecad Project had an average of 0.9% of East European admixture in the K12 admixture, and one Japanese individual had up to 2%. I first thought that this was a mistake (noise), but it seems to be correct after all. They completely lack the West European and Mediterranean admixtures though, which means that these early Indo-Europeans who settled around Mongolia must have been pure R1a.
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    The Japanese really are east Asians paternally, with high O and uniquely East Asian (Japanese+Tibetan) hg D. Their rare D element found in about 2/5 of them is what significantly differentiates them from neighbouring populations such as Chinese and Koreans, who are even higher in O or Mongolians who are high in C3. The Tibetans though also have D, but it's D1. Most Japanese males have D2. The O found in Japanese males is typical if china, Korea and Southeast Asia, thus indicating recent gene flow from possibly long lost Chinese or Vietnamese or Korean, maybe even Philippine ancestors (I would put my money on Chinese or Korean or Taiwanese though.) The D is a marker of a more ancient coastal journey from Africa across southern Asia directly to Japan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    R1a and R1b are not genes that ever affected Japanese gene flow in any way; about 37-40% of Japanese men re D, about 50% are O ( O2b is 31% of Japanese males O3 is 18%).
    In any way?? I am asking whether there are any studies showing how much R1a exists in the Japanese population and where it is most present. To say it doesn't exist is what I referred to as the 'open and closed book', for it most probably exists, even if it only flowed from Buddhist evangelization or drunk Western sailors. The culture of the Kofun people did not originate in Vietnam, Taiwan or the Philippines. It looks to have come from the steppe by every metric. If that is the case, then I should expect to see haplotypes such as Q, R, C in the general population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Never heard of R1a in Japan, but I wouldn't be surprised since Hammer et al. (2006) found 0.4% of unspecified haplogroup R in Japan (n=259), 1% in Southeast Asia (n=683), and 3.2% in Northeast Asia (n=441)...The Japanese otherwise have 3% of C3 and 0.5% of Q, both typical of Mongolian populations. So 0.1% to 0.5% of R1a wouldn't be out of place...

    I also noticed that the Japanese from the Dodecad Project had an average of 0.9% of East European admixture in the K12 admixture, and one Japanese individual had up to 2%. I first thought that this was a mistake (noise), but it seems to be correct after all...
    One thing worth pointing out is that even within the last 10k years, the Japanese archipelago supported an incredibly large and apparently impermeable population with almost perfect continuity till the Yayoi period. So much so that there may have been a large back migration to East Asia and the Americas. So after 10k years of Jomonese increase, and probably and even larger Yayoi increase with the introduction of wet rice farming, the later intruding Kofun class could have been no less than simply an extreme minority on a very heavily populated archipelago. Just being a layman, I can't help be notice the angular faces, deep eyes and pointy beards of the men that parade on Kofun Kurgans. Their culture is decidedly NE Easian and based on the maps I saw on genebase, the peaks of R1a, albeit low, appear in places that look like Kofun hotspots. The Yamato ancestral territory is one that initially peaked my interst.
    There just doesn't seem to be high resolution info on the Japanese population that I've found..

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    I wonder if more R1 will be found in Ainu people than the rest of Japan.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people
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    What about O if the culture you speak of migrated from china or Korea; they would have Q or C if they migrated from Siberia or very high C if their ancestors were Mongols. The Ainu are said to have come from Siberia; it seems Japan was settled by a first wave of D men who went on an ancient coastal journey across Asia to Japan. Maybe even C3 passed on Japan first but I would personally doubt it. Much later on, continental Asian men of O would migrate from china and Korea towards JapanJapan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Never heard of R1a in Japan, but I wouldn't be surprised since Hammer et al. (2006) found 0.4% of unspecified haplogroup R in Japan (n=259), 1% in Southeast Asia (n=683), and 3.2% in Northeast Asia (n=441). It would make sense that this R be R1a brought by Bronze Age Indo-Europeans to Mongolia, which infiltrated most of East Asia in the ensuing 4000 years. The Koreans and Japanese both speak an Altaic language (distantly) related to Mongolian, and that language evolved after the Indo-European migrations. The Korean invasion of Japan only happened 2500 years ago. The Japanese otherwise have 3% of C3 and 0.5% of Q, both typical of Mongolian populations. So 0.1% to 0.5% of R1a wouldn't be out of place.

    I also noticed that the Japanese from the Dodecad Project had an average of 0.9% of East European admixture in the K12 admixture, and one Japanese individual had up to 2%. I first thought that this was a mistake (noise), but it seems to be correct after all. They completely lack the West European and Mediterranean admixtures though, which means that these early Indo-Europeans who settled around Mongolia must have been pure R1a.
    I have been thinking the same thing the Yamna people(not all Yamna people) that I guess were proto Indo Iranian and Tocharian speakers around 5,000ybp were close to 100% R1a1a1b2 Z93 or just R1a overall. Indo Iranian and Tocherian DNA ancient DNA totally backs this up. And It is really popular in areas they migrated while there is almost no other Y DNA they could of spread maybe some others. I have seen you argue they also spread R1b1a1 M73 and J2b but do thet both exist in Mongolia, throughout central asia, and Altaian Siberia(R1a is over 40% click here).

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    Is there any ancient DNA from Japan? I bet there is a lot to learn about Genetic stuff in eastern Asia why is Y DNA O so popular in so many different language families? Are modern Japanese mainly from the Jomom people maybe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I wonder if more R1 will be found in Ainu people than the rest of Japan.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people
    I really doubt I guess they kind of look European but Y DNa and mtDNA studies show they are Mongliod I am sure austomal DNA will show no traces of any European or Caucasian blood. If you shave them they look east Asian its their big beards that cover their face that make them look European.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The Koreans and Japanese both speak an Altaic language (distantly) related to Mongolian,
    This is very disputed, fact is only that Japanese is part of the "Japonic" language family. However it is true that all East and Northeast Asian languages are related.

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    Don't the Ainu have 15-20% hg C?

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    I heard that the Ainu arrived from Siberia; possibly Manchuria? They where of a stock higher in hg C.

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    Correction: You are correct that the majority of R1b is in fact M73 in Japan, of course that's based on what I've read off Genbase and that may be old information. I haven't seen any study. In any case, I had said before that R1b probably came from Westerners in the last five hundred years, but I'm not so sure now. The presence of M73 along with R1a is probably indicative of a Steppe population along with other typical Mongol haplotypes. Secondly, the Tocharians were not exclusively R1a, in fact, they may have had no R1a. The Tarim mummies are often cited as Tocharians, and certainly they probably did have Tocharian ancestors, but the timeframe of the burial of the most famous mummies, they were certainly Scythians/Saka and toward the end of the Tarim period were increasingly Indo-Scythian Buddhists. In fact, one of the Tarim girls was clearly a Buddhist nun and appears mixed (equal parts Scythian and Asian). And of course that all makes sense given the history of Buddhism and its spread through Central Asia and the Asian Steppes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I wonder if more R1 will be found in Ainu people than the rest of Japan.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people
    I don't expect to find any R1a at all among the Ainu since they are not descended from the Koreans/Mongols but from the aboriginal Palaeolithic inhabitants of Japan. They did come from Siberia, but well before the Bronze Age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    This is very disputed, fact is only that Japanese is part of the "Japonic" language family. However it is true that all East and Northeast Asian languages are related.
    The Altaic character of Japanese is more evident in the grammar than in the actual vocabulary. Japanese, Korean and Mongolian are agglutinative languages, like all Altaic (including Turkic), Uralic and Native American languages (in other words all languages originating in Siberia).

    But I can think of a few words similar in Japanese and Mongolian. For example, black is kuro Japanese, qara in Mongolian, kara in Turkish.

    Japanese is an extremely composite language. Its grammar is Altaic, its sounds and some of its vocabulary are Austronesian, its core vocabulary is native Japanese but most of the technical, religious, political, academic or other formal words are from Chinese.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabaccus Maximus View Post
    Correction: You are correct that the majority of R1b is in fact M73 in Japan, of course that's based on what I've read off Genbase and that may be old information. I haven't seen any study. In any case, I had said before that R1b probably came from Westerners in the last five hundred years, but I'm not so sure now. The presence of M73 along with R1a is probably indicative of a Steppe population along with other typical Mongol haplotypes. Secondly, the Tocharians were not exclusively R1a, in fact, they may have had no R1a. The Tarim mummies are often cited as Tocharians, and certainly they probably did have Tocharian ancestors, but the timeframe of the burial of the most famous mummies, they were certainly Scythians/Saka and toward the end of the Tarim period were increasingly Indo-Scythian Buddhists. In fact, one of the Tarim girls was clearly a Buddhist nun and appears mixed (equal parts Scythian and Asian). And of course that all makes sense given the history of Buddhism and its spread through Central Asia and the Asian Steppes.
    If there is R1b in Japan it is not surprising that is should be M73 since it is the variety of R1b most commonly found among the Uyghurs, Mongolians and Siberians. I have linked the presence of M73 around the Altai with the Afanasevo culture (c. 3600-2400 BCE).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    If there is R1b in Japan it is not surprising that is should be M73 since it is the variety of R1b most commonly found among the Uyghurs, Mongolians and Siberians. I have linked the presence of M73 around the Altai with the Afanasevo culture (c. 3600-2400 BCE).
    Afanasevo makes sense for being the catalyst of M73's movement out of West Asia. Of course the Afanasevo horizon would later in history became dominated by people variously identified as Scythians who probably brought R1a into Pazyryk, Altai and other areas such as the Tarim basin.

    Scythian influences have long been noted in Korea and Japan, this is seen in the crowns of the Korean ruling Silla who at the time were at war with the Kofun aristocracy in Japan. The uniform of the Issyk kurgan is another style that enters Korea and Japan at this time among the warring class. There are countless other examples.

    The vesture of the Kofun Haniwa appears to have Scythian influences as well. The trousers, belt, hair styles, facial hair, hats and earrings are all decidedly foreign and various commentaries have noted their Western and Central Asian influences. In many cases, they are surprisingly Scythian, not just a vague example of Central Asian styles. The more I dig into the history of the three-kingdoms period I become more convenced that an Altai culture like that of Pazyryk became influencial early in Korean history which in turn became influencial in Japan.

    Of course, these postulated Altai people were most likely an amalgam of Mongol, Scythian and Turkic influences. They may have been 'Hunnic-like' in their composition.

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    The Japanese also have trace frequencies of European mtDNA (HV, H, V and W). See my analysis here.

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    It could even be a possibility that the men of the Japanese Imperial family carry haplogroup R1a!
    Interestingly Coon noted an Europid/Caucasoid influence amongst Japanese upper-classes.
    He called their phenotype the "Aristocratic type" as opposed to the "Peasant type".
    In fact Japan may be quite similar to India in that regard.
    This is why more studies should be done on that country.
    They should first test the aDNA to evaluate the genetic composition and evolution of Japan from the Jomon period to (at least) the early Shogunates(Middle Ages).
    Then they should compare the genetic make-up(Y-DNA,autosomal,mtDNA) of modern Japanese with noble surnames with those with non-noble surnames.
    Of course not mentioning the potential of discovering higher recent(post-1500's) European and South Asian admixture in the general population(especially in coastal cities known to have had such foreign influences like Kobe or Nagasaki).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabaccus Maximus View Post
    In any way?? I am asking whether there are any studies showing how much R1a exists in the Japanese population and where it is most present. To say it doesn't exist is what I referred to as the 'open and closed book', for it most probably exists, even if it only flowed from Buddhist evangelization or drunk Western sailors....
    Buddhist missionaries is actually a good hypothesis. Buddhism started as a sort of reform movement in Hinduism or at least sprung up in a Hindu-influenced context, and Hinduism is an Indo-European "Sky Father" religion. That makes it likely that IE people were among the first to hear about Buddhism and perhaps become many of its earliest follows.

    As for the drunk Western sailors, I'd imagine that the problem may have more been due to drunk Japanese barmaids who were so intoxicated that they thought that sleeping with Western sailors was actually a good idea....

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post
    I really doubt I guess they kind of look European but Y DNa and mtDNA studies show they are Mongliod I am sure austomal DNA will show no traces of any European or Caucasian blood. If you shave them they look east Asian its their big beards that cover their face that make them look European.
    Perhaps the Ainu are a mix of Steppe and Chinese ancestry, making them look not-quite-European but more European than their neighbors, all other things being equal. We know that modern Europeans are a mix of Steppe/West Asian peoples (R1a, R1b), Paleolithic Europeans (I1, I2), and other peoples. Maybe the "European-like" features that we see in Ainu are actually features of the original Steppe people that were spread in both directions. Ainu (and Japanese in general) presumably are not going to have a significant amount of WHG and other stone-age European admixture, making it unlikely that they would, say, look like French people.

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    The Altaic character of Japanese is more evident in the grammar than in the actual vocabulary. Japanese, Korean and Mongolian are agglutinative languages, like all Altaic (including Turkic), Uralic and Native American languages (in other words all languages originating in Siberia).
    Maciamo can the agglutinative nature be a sufficient to classification? My impression is that agglutinativeness was widespread. Dravidians, Sumerian, Hurrians, Hattic and some of Caucasian languages are/were agglutinative.

    About some ancient DNA from Japan.

    https://heritageofjapan.wordpress.co...ously-thought/
    Ancient Jomon people not like present-day East Asians


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    An interesting summary.

    http://www.wa-pedia.com/history/orig...e_people.shtml

    One of comments.
    The newest research revealed Yayoi people came from Southern China and North Vietnam by sea route, far older time than 3rd CE BC. The origin of Y-Haplogroup O2b is not Korea, but Southern China and North Vietnam. Yaoi people from South China/Vietnam brought Hydroponic culture(wet rice culture)of rice to Japan and it did not come through Korea for there are no evidence of Hydroponic culture of rice in North China and North Korea. DNA sampling of ancient rice found in soil in Japan proved that they came directly from Southern China/Vietnam.
    People in Vietnam(14%) and Indonesia still carry pretty high level of O2b. These people travelled up to North on boats and they came in waves, not at once. To prove this, the people who has the highest O2b in the world are living in Islands of MIyakojima and those area of OKINAWA. O2b is rare in mainland China except for Manchu.
    and another that is different. So the question of route O2b is not resolved it seems.

    and moreover, the birth of haplo O2b estimated 4000~10000 years ago from southern china or southern manchuria. this date is very late among major haplogroups. but considering its population, the majority of yayoi people seemed to be come from korean peninsula.

    well though the route of O2b is uncertain(from southern china? or southern manchuria?), at least it is certain. O2b is mainly distribute among korean, japanese and manchurian(but the haplo of manchurians is differerent by the regions-_-;), but rare among chinese.

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