One third to half of Ashkenazi Jews belong to mt-haplogroup K

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

What could cause the discrepancy between the prevalence of mtDNA K in Western and Eastern Ashkenazic communities?

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Also, does anybody know of any studies/amateur research about any differences between Western and Eastern Ashkenazi communities - I think part of the difference could come from Sephardic Jewish immigrants to Poland in the 16th century (I think it was the 16th century), but I'm not sure how much of an impact these Sephardim had.

[Angela]

What study shows a big discrepancy between the mtDna frequencies of western European versus Eastern European Jews?

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

What study shows a big discrepancy between the mtDna frequencies of western European versus Eastern European Jews?

I was just wondering is all - I mean this one shows a 17% diff. in mtDNA K, which is odd for what is supposedly an extremely homogenous population.

[patrician]

mtdna K is present in 32% of Ashkenazi jewish females and is associated with the spread of agriculture from the levant to neolithic southeastern europe and central europe via maritime and mainland routes respectively. mtdna K represents 40% of PPNB culture samples (neolithic) from Tell Ramad near Syria`s Golan heights dated to 6000 B.C. or 8,000 years ago. The clade was also discovered in skeletons of early farmers in Central Europe dated to around 5500-5300 BC, at percentages that were nearly double the percentage present in modern Europe. Some techniques of farming, together with associated plant and animal breeds, spread into Europe from the Near East. The evidence from ancient DNA suggests that the Neolithic culture spread by human migration. Mtdna K is present in both Epicardial/Cardial and LBK culture Neolithic data sets at appreciable frequencies. Modern populations with high frequencies of mtdna K are the Csango of Moldavia (22%), Kurds (17%), Druze (16%) and Cypriots (13%). Neolithic populations with high frequencies of mtdna K are Cardium Pottery farmers from Catalonia ( 23%) and in samples from the Central European Danubian dating to the Neolithic (10%).

[athos]

You are correct - that logic is dubious. A similar thing is happening with regards to the debate over my own yDNA haplotype, R1b-M222. It is undeniable that this type is now strongly associated with Celts of the British Isles and especially those from Northern Ireland, but there has been some debate over whether it first mutated there or was brought there via a movement from the continental Celtic population and later flourished in Ireland due to founder effects, family dynasties, and polygamy.

Thanks for posting this. I took a 23andMe DNA test and my MTDNA came back as K2. Very little information seems to be available on K2 and I don't believe the ancestry timeline assumptions that are being made. I am Greek and I do not believe there are many reference populations to compare to. Through family history I strongly suspect a strong genetic connection to Crete yet I have not been able to confirm with any of the genetic calculators. My journey will continue.

[Tomenable]

As for IQ (which was mentioned in this thread before) - Jewish IQ has a very curious, uneven pattern, different than among Non-Jewish Caucasians. Compared to Non-Jewish Caucasians, they have very high verbal, but below-average visuo-spatial.

Quote:

"Brown (1944) found several sub-test differences compatible with the hypothesis that Jewish children are higher on verbal abilities, while Scandinavian children are higher on visuo-spatial abilities. Lesser, Fifer, and Clark (1965) found large differences favoring Jewish children over Chinese-American children on verbal ability, but differences in favor of Chinese-American children on visuo-spatial abilities. And Backman (1972) found that Jewish subjects were significantly higher than non-Jewish Caucasians on a measure of verbal knowledge but were significantly lower on visuo-spatial reasoning. (...) Whereas in the general population there was a correlation of 0.77 between Verbal and Performance IQs, among Jewish children it was only 0.31. Levinson (1960b) found that a sample of Jewish boys (age 10-13) with an average Verbal IQ of 117 had a below-average Performance IQ of 98, while Irish and Italian samples matched for Full Scale IQ had Verbal/Performance differences of only approximately 5 points (approximately 110-105). Levinson (1959) provides evidence that the Verbal/Performance difference for Jewish children increases from pre-school to young adulthood. When children were matched on the basis of full-scale Wechsler IQ, pre-school children showed a small (3-point) difference between Performance and Verbal IQ, while elementary school-age and college student subjects showed a difference of approximately 20 points."

Richard Lynn noticed this too, and Feliks Koneczny in his book "The Jewish Civilization". Low performance IQ of Jews might explain why they never built powerful empires, and why they thrive the most when they have a host population. Koneczny's book, English edition:

http://www.christendom-awake.org/pag...vilization.htm

"Introductory remark

The ‘Jewish question’ among nations is neither racial, nor confessional – it is a question of a wholly distinct civilization, i.e. a distinct mode of communal life. Jews have their own civilization and it is in this that the extensiveness of the issue consists. (...)"



And Richard Lynn said the following:

"(...) A curious feature of the IQ of the Jews is that they are particularly strong on the verbal and reasoning abilities, and not nearly so strong on the visual and spatial abilities. (...) This profile of the Jews expresses itself in the areas of attainment in which Jews excell. Jews are very prominent in occupations requiring verbal and reasoning abilities, such as law, science, literature (...) but not so strong on occupations requiring visual and spatial abilities, such as engineering and architecture. There are not many prominent Jews in the fields of engineering and architecture. It is hard to name eminent Jews in these occupations. (...)"

More about it here: https://pumpkinperson.com/2016/08/26...an-it-answers/

U.S. Jewish spatial IQ 93

Storfer notes that on reasoning with spatial forms, “…Jewish students scored significantly less well on this test (half a standard deviation lower than the non-Jewish sample)” This implies an average spatial IQ of about 93.

U.S. Jewish memory IQ 96

Storfer notes that Jews “also performed poorly on a measure of short-term recall of sequences of nonword letter strings (scoring 0.3 standard deviations below the non-Jewish sample).” This implies a memory IQ of 96.

More about it, it also explains why Jews do better when they have a host population than when they are left alone:

http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16441

"(...) In this regard, it is worth mentioning that economic historians have noticed that Jewish economic activity has tended not to be characterized by technological innovation related to mechanical abilities tapped by tests of visuo-spatial abilities (i.e., Performance IQ). Thus, Mosse (1987, 166) suggests that the distinguishing features of Jewish economic activity in 19th-century Germany are to be found "less in outright innovation or invention than in a special aptitude for economic 'mediation' in the forms of the export of German goods, of 'secondary innovation', technology transfer through the introduction into Germany of processes and methods observed abroad, and new techniques for the stimulation of demand."

Modern Israel has two "host populations" - its Non-Jewish people (Palestinian Arabs etc.) and its American supporters.

[markozd]

"(...) In this regard, it is worth mentioning that economic historians have noticed that Jewish economic activity has tended not to be characterized by technological innovation related to mechanical abilities tapped by tests of visuo-spatial abilities (i.e., Performance IQ). Thus, Mosse (1987, 166) suggests that the distinguishing features of Jewish economic activity in 19th-century Germany are to be found "less in outright innovation or invention than in a special aptitude for economic 'mediation' in the forms of the export of German goods, of 'secondary innovation', technology transfer through the introduction into Germany of processes and methods observed abroad, and new techniques for the stimulation of demand."

Modern Israel has two "host populations" - its Non-Jewish people (Palestinian Arabs etc.) and its American supporters.

No group has had greater achievements in the natural sciences and mathematics of the late 19th and the 20th century than European Jews - and that's before normalizing for population size. Those fields don't strike me as very heavy on verbal reasoning. Obviously they were confined to economic niches in the 19th century because Jews were widely discriminated against and they tended not to own land.

[Angela]

No group has had greater achievements in the natural sciences and mathematics of the late 19th and the 20th century than European Jews - and that's before normalizing for population size. Those fields don't strike me as very heavy on verbal reasoning. Obviously they were confined to economic niches in the 19th century because Jews were widely discriminated against and they tended not to own land.

He never stops. If it's not the racist Lynn, it's Polish historians from the 19th century downplaying Ashkenazi achievements. It's best to just ignore.

[markozd]

He never stops. If it's not the racist Lynn, it's Polish historians from the 19th century downplaying Ashkenazi achievements. It's best to just ignore.

I really hope he gets some perspective though. Those 'host population' formulations are genuinely sinister. He's reading propaganda of the worst kind.

[Tomenable]

Angela,

Ashkenazi achievements only skyrocketed after they became secularized.

Which was mostly after the 19th century, or at least after the 1st half of it.

Markozd,

Those 'host population' formulations are genuinely sinister.

Tell this to indigenous Palestinian Arabs though. They definitely feel like a host population. When after 1945 given a choice for the location of Israel between depopulated Kaliningrad Oblast and Arab-populated Palestine, Jews chose the latter.

Why? Maybe because they wanted to have a large host population.

[Tomenable]

If it's not the racist Lynn

What makes him more racist than other researchers of IQ ???

Even if Lynn is racist, he is definitely not racist against Jews.

[AdeoF]

Hmm i was always thinking that the Ashkenazi admixture is very similar/nearly the same to other Europeans because of there features and many years living in Europe. Well haplogroups don't really count much but it's interesting to see them having a different one

[Tomenable]

because of there features and many years living in Europe

Their features are just like you would expect from a population that is roughly 1/2 Euro and 1/2 MENA. Back in times of anthropological Typology, almost 60% of Ashkenazi Jews were classified as belonging to Non-European anthropological types (and the remaining 40% or more comprised a mix of various European types):

https://s27.postimg.org/3sie35hf7/Je...thro_Types.png



Compare that with modern genetic data about their admixture history:

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...63099.full.pdf

[Angela]

I really hope he gets some perspective though. Those 'host population' formulations are genuinely sinister. He's reading propaganda of the worst kind.

I don't think material like that drops into your lap. People seek it out because they want to find any kind of "evidence", even pseudo-scientific evidence, to bolster their pre-existing racist ideologies, learned perhaps from family members or just generally from the people in their culture.

That's why there's no profit in debating people like that. It's all emotionally based, and so impervious to reason and logic.

I mean, as you say, they are just as accomplished in math and science as they are in verbal disciplines. In both areas they only started to shine after they were released from their ghettos and allowed to attend universities. The capacity was there, but they didn't have the access to the education before then.

This was brought up by the same poster at least once before, and all the evidence presented. It doesn't matter. It's like a tic.

Eastern Europe is living in a time warp, and it's dangerous for everyone.

[Tomenable]

I don't think material like that drops into your lap. People seek it out because they want to find any kind of "evidence", even pseudo-scientific evidence, to bolster their pre-existing racist ideologies

I seeked it out because on another forum I debated a racist Jewish supremacist who tried to denigrate East Asians by posting this:

https://thecross-roads.org/race-cult...tual-supremacy

And this: https://cdn.imagefra.me/i2639j/sftfi1imagem_9acceca.gif

So I reminded him that East Asians actually have higher performance IQ than Jews and - unlike Jews - created powerful empires.

Jews never had a state as powerful as China or Japan. Or even Tibet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_Empire

[Tomenable]

Yes, there actually exist racist Jewish supremacists out there, Angela.

And they try to denigrate East Asians and their IQ. And other groups.

In the U.S. there is also quite a bit of racism against Asians, especially FOB ones. "China is stealing our jobs", etc.

[Tomenable]

Eastern Europe is living in a time warp, and it's dangerous for everyone.

Or perhaps America is a living time warp, with a Cold War type mentality still prevalent.

Which is why you see China or East Europe as a menace. Evil Asian and Slavic Commies.

====================

Typical American family, well-protected against Eastern Europeans and school shooters:

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattve...-shoo-n2464271

https://www.wykop.pl/cdn/c3201142/co...tuJc84p2HF.jpg

[exceededminimumso..]

Or perhaps America is a living time warp, with a Cold War type mentality still prevalent.

Which is why you see China or East Europe as a menace. Evil Asian and Slavic Commies.

What is this "East Europe" you're talking about?

[Tomenable]

What is this "East Europe" you're talking about?

Americans understand East Europe as countries between Russia and Germany.

But often they also conflate Russia with everyone else to the east of Germany.

So I guess we are all Russians for them. Orthodox subjects of Tsar Vladimir.

Not really: http://faculty.ce.berkeley.edu/coby/essays/seipel.htm

[Tomenable]

Angela likes to accuse my country of being racist, without looking at data:

https://i.redd.it/dsph5tpfbdfz.png



https://i.redd.it/bfg2ndh786fz.png



https://i.redd.it/3pqyefuyf4m01.jpg

[Tomenable]

We are not as anti-racist as Sweden as you can see. But more than Portugal or Israel.

[Tutkun Arnaut]

Ashkenazi Jewish have practiced inbreeding. Which means they marry their first, second cousins in order to keep their possessions within the family. Jewish I have spoken with, aware of their high IQ among their ranks, have started to think that this custom not practiced among other groups might be the magic. Large percentage of K among them shows just that.

[exceededminimumso..]

Ashkenazi Jewish have practiced inbreeding. Which means they marry their first, second cousins in order to keep their possessions within the family. Jewish I have spoken with, aware of their high IQ among their ranks, have started to think that this custom not practiced among other groups might be the magic. Large percentage of K among them shows just that.

Pretty much everyone did

[Tutkun Arnaut]

Pretty much everyone did

not every one. such marriages are considered risky for birth defects in all European populations