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Thread: Can you guess and classify this man?

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    Can you guess and classify this man?



    I thought this was another good one for the guess and classify section. I'll be interested to see what you make of it; it had me stumped at first...

    Attachment 6043

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I thought this was another good one for the guess and classify section. I'll be interested to see what you make of it; it had me stumped at first...

    Attachment 6043
    Since no one seems to be willing to play...lol.

    This is Gregory Fitoussi, French actor of Algerian Jewish descent. I think he bears a strong resemblance to Bernard Henri Levy, who is from the same community.

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    I know this fella, the very animated philosopher.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    First guy is definitely of European descent; it would be difficult to specify which region as he fits in many categories; very interesting the second guy, we can clearly see he's Jewish as he looks more like a middle easterner than a north-African, for example, on the median. He looks quite out of place for an Algerian to be honest.

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    So I've re-read as I'm smoking a blunt; it would appear that they are BOTH Jews.

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    Maybe Algerian Jew but I got the impression that Sephardic Jews in general look more Europe or Near Eastern/West Asian than North African.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    So I've re-read as I'm smoking a blunt; it would appear that they are BOTH Jews.
    Yep, they look very European so they both could be Jews. I'm not sure what Jewish features you're talking about?

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    I actually re-saw photos of those individuals on google; they don't quite look Jewish actually

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    there is no peculiar physical trait that can be attributed to Jews only; the second man (I cannot see acutely enough the fîrst one) could be Italian, Greek, Jew (where from?), Armenian, French, Iberian, Swiss... he has some partly 'cromagnoid' features on his face, what is not the commoner among most of Jews but who knows? his eyes (eyelids) are very european, 'alpinelike', neither typically North-African nor Near-Eastern; as you know, Jews are a melting pot of heavy european ascendance among Askenazes and near-eastern-anatolian-southern european for sepharades so...

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    Yes, Exactly

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    If you can't see Gregory Fitoussi clearly just click on the picture...it should enlarge. Both he and BHL are of Algerian Jewish ancestry, although of course now French. I posted them mainly because when I saw the handsome Mr. Fitoussi in the French series "Engrenages", The Spiral, I looked him up because he didn't look quite French to me, but neither could I place him precisely. When I discovered he was of Algerian Jewish background, I thought of Bernard Henri Levy, with whom I'm very familiar, and once I looked at his young pictures, I thought I could see the resemblance. I wondered if anyone else would see it.

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    Right. lol
    Last edited by adamo; 18-10-13 at 18:54.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Right. lol
    Obviously, Adamo, the people who do market research and cast leading men don't agree with you. :)



    Neither do the female characters in Engrenages, by the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    there is no peculiar physical trait that can be attributed to Jews only; the second man (I cannot see acutely enough the fîrst one) could be Italian, Greek, Jew (where from?), Armenian, French, Iberian, Swiss... he has some partly 'cromagnoid' features on his face, what is not the commoner among most of Jews but who knows? his eyes (eyelids) are very european, 'alpinelike', neither typically North-African nor Near-Eastern; as you know, Jews are a melting pot of heavy european ascendance among Askenazes and near-eastern-anatolian-southern european for sepharades so...
    Moesan, could you explain what you mean when you say that "Alpine" is a good description for BHL's eyes? My father and his whole family have the kind of eyes you are discussing... with the droopy lid, (how's that for an anthropological description, lol?) They are from northern Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    If you can't see Gregory Fitoussi clearly just click on the picture...it should enlarge. Both he and BHL are of Algerian Jewish ancestry, although of course now French. I posted them mainly because when I saw the handsome Mr. Fitoussi in the French series "Engrenages", The Spiral, I looked him up because he didn't look quite French to me, but neither could I place him precisely. When I discovered he was of Algerian Jewish background, I thought of Bernard Henri Levy, with whom I'm very familiar, and once I looked at his young pictures, I thought I could see the resemblance. I wondered if anyone else would see it.
    if you had the opportunity to see southern Frenchmen (and too big towns frenchmen of everypart) maybe you would not say "they are not French looking" - Southern Frenchmen are far to present always mediteranean traits of whatever kind but faces like these are far too to be rare - and big towns of France are since long ago the places of jewish, italian, , armenian and all kinds of Mediterraneans (geographically speaking) populations, since the roman times for someones (people more skillful for commerce and trading): the last spanish and portuguese emigrations were less based on commerce, more on hand work -in recent times I think I remarked Southern italians were found more in commerce and Northern italians more in building occupations (brickwork)... Maybe am I wrong?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    if you had the opportunity to see southern Frenchmen (and too big towns frenchmen of everypart) maybe you would not say "they are not French looking" - Southern Frenchmen are far to present always mediteranean traits of whatever kind but faces like these are far too to be rare - and big towns of France are since long ago the places of jewish, italian, , armenian and all kinds of Mediterraneans (geographically speaking) populations, since the roman times for someones (people more skillful for commerce and trading): the last spanish and portuguese emigrations were less based on commerce, more on hand work -in recent times I think I remarked Southern italians were found more in commerce and Northern italians more in building occupations (brickwork)... Maybe am I wrong?
    I was actually born and lived for a good part of my life right over the border from France in Liguria and have spent much time in Provence. It's one of my favorite places in the world. Were I not going to retire in Italy some day, that would be my next choice. Perhaps I just don't have visual discrimination skills as developed as yours. :)

    I don't know much about any Italian immigration to France. As far as most Italians are concerned...Nice (Nizza) and the surrounding areas are really Italian...Garibaldi, born in Nizza, certainly throught so...As to early twentieth century migration to France from Italy, I think a lot of it was from the Veneto...there were indeed though, some northwestern Italians involved in the construction of the tunnel up by Barcelonette. The majority of the immigrants from the north west and northern Tuscany, and the Veneto too, for that matter, went to South America. I get a lot of matches at 23andme from Argentina and Brazil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Moesan, could you explain what you mean when you say that "Alpine" is a good description for BHL's eyes? My father and his whole family have the kind of eyes you are discussing... with the droopy lid, (how's that for an anthropological description, lol?) They are from northern Italy.
    All what you say is correct.
    you can get further info from this link which is only 4 months old
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg201341a.html

    Origin of blue eyes in ancient times was from the alpine area. This was discussed previous on another thread here...............it is based on genetics

    based on :The color of the eyes: at least 17 HERC2 variants in Human gene pool
    Frequency of light eyes in a population = (%ht1 +%ht2)2

    Example1: Germans have 46% ht1 and 33% ht2.
    (46%+33%)2
    = (0.46 + 0.33)2
    = 0.792
    = 0.62
    = 62%
    62% of the Germans have light eye color based on the HERC2 genotype.


    Frequency of light eyes in a population = (%ht1 +%ht2)2

    Example1: Northern Italians have 42% ht1 and 27% ht2.
    (42%+27%)2
    = (0.42 + 0.27)2
    = 0.692
    = 0.58
    = 58%
    58% of the Northern Italians have light eye color based on the HERC2 genotype.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Is this certain european type of Jew look?

    Anthony Bourdain



    Jonathan Miller





    I don't have problem recognizing "Jewishness" in Leonard Cohen or Bob Dylan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Is this certain european type of Jew look?

    Anthony Bourdain



    Jonathan Miller





    I don't have problem recognizing "Jewishness" in Leonard Cohen or Bob Dylan.
    Are these all supposed to be Jewish?

    Anthony Bourdain is non-religious person, father was catholic, mother was jewish......he married a sardinian women (Ottavia Busia) and was born in south-east France ( or family originated from there ).

    Is one classified as Jewish by a parent or religious following?
    If religious , then he is "pagan"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Are these all supposed to be Jewish?

    Anthony Bourdain is non-religious person, father was catholic, mother was jewish......he married a sardinian women (Ottavia Busia) and was born in south-east France ( or family originated from there ).

    Is one classified as Jewish by a parent or religious following?
    If religious , then he is "pagan"
    I guess, whatever doesn't fit your compartmentalization and strict definition then it stops existing for you. Well get used to it, that's how today's world looks like. It is getting extremely hard to segregate and define people, as they mix, change and evolve.
    Just compare it to your situation. Are you a Venet or New Zealander? You can also entertain us with your definition of a Jew.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I guess, whatever doesn't fit your compartmentalization and strict definition then it stops existing for you. Well get used to it, that's how today's world looks like. It is getting extremely hard to segregate and define people, as they mix, change and evolve.
    Just compare it to your situation. Are you a Venet or New Zealander? You can also entertain us with your definition of a Jew.
    To be a Jew one must maintain your religious belief, clearly he has not adapted the jewish or any other religion..............another reason why the term Jew for genetics makes no sense

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    To be a Jew one must maintain your religious belief, clearly he has not adapted the jewish or any other religion..............another reason why the term Jew for genetics makes no sense
    That's ok, it doesn't need to make sense to everyone.

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    "Jewish" is a religion. "Ashkenazi" is an ethnic designation...a genetically specific population that formed in Europe and was severely bottlenecked around the time of the Crusades, probably in the Rhineland. They then moved to the east and there experienced a massive population explosion. They form such a genetically specific cluster that if you are even 1/32 Ashkenazi, sometimes even less, 23andme will show it. On the other hand, if you are Sephardic, which is a population that is genetically linked and overlaps with some Ashkenazi, it will only show whatever Ashkenazi you may have picked up through intermarriage with Ashkenazi Jews; the Sephardim do not form a specifically distinct enough cluster to be detected as such. Then you have Yemeni Jews, North African Jews (usually a combination of ancient Jewish communities of North Africa and Sephardic Jews from Iberia) Mountain Jews of the Caucasus, and the Mizrahim of Iraq and Iran, who have had a community there since the Bablylonian Captivity. They are all related, but owing to absorbed "foreign" admixture since the modern era, they are also genetically different.

    Phenotype is a different issue, although affected obviously by admixture.

    As Moesan put it, there's no "Jewish" look common to all Jews, even if people are referring to the Ashkenazi ethnicity rather than to a religious affiliation; that was a fantasy of the Nazis...Some admixture took place wherever the Jews settled. The people they mixed with in the Middle East probably didn't differ that much phenotypically from the original population, but the ones in Europe did, more or less depending on the area...I don't know why that's surprising.

    The French Algerian Jewish community was formed in large measure by Sephardic Jews from Iberia, who probably absorbed some local Iberian genes, along with some Berber as well, and have mostly remained endogamous since at least the Middle Ages. Why would they look like more recently admixed North Africans?

    With Italian Jews, there are the Italkim, who have probably been in Rome since the days of the Empire, and then you have a mixture of French Jews expelled from France, Sephardim from Spain, and more recently some Ashkenazim. For a long time they remained separate from each other, with separate synagogues, but that has changed with time. While sometimes I can tell that someone is Italian Jewish, at other times I see absolutely no difference between them and other Italians, as with these famous Italian Jews.

    Luigi Luzzati, one of our Italian-Jewish Prime Ministers:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...i_Luzzatti.jpg

    Camillo Olivetti, founder of the Olivetti company
    http://www.fondazioneadrianolivetti....ETTI_S-010.jpg

    Rita Levi-Montalcini, one of a number of Italian Jewish Nobel Prize Laureates in the sciences. She looks a lot like my father's mother.
    http://asso.machiavelli.free.fr/Site...ontalcini3.jpg

    Amadeo Modigliani-world famous painter
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...-nice-1918.jpg

    Or what about Jean-Marie Cardinal Lutziger, Archbishop of Paris, born to Polish Jewish parents, convert to Catholicism...he looks Italian to me.
    http://www.kipa-apic.ch/chargement/p...84h480w640.jpg

    Then, it's been my experience that Americans often think a certain look is uniquely "Jewish" when sometimes it's just one type of Southern European look. I've had a number of them ask me why the Italian Popes look like Jews, lol. They just look Italian to me.
    http://mundabor.files.wordpress.com/...5/pius-xii.jpg

    (Of course then we have Italian Popes who look like Pius X
    http://saints.sqpn.com/wp-content/ga...-pius-x-00.jpg)

    Or how about Roberto Benigni...Americans have told me he looks Jewish...he looks Italian. Poor Roberto is also proof that not all Italian men are good looking...LOL
    http://www.biography.com/imported/im...7145-1-402.jpg

    And then we have Ashkenazi Jews who look like Italians like my father, and don't fit the stereotype for either Jews *or* Italians. With straight, light, hair, he'd be a dead ringer for my father in his youth.
    http://cdn2.screenjunkies.com/wp-con...2.31.11-PM.png

    Not everybody fits into some stereotypical box created by people with limited experience to other nationalities.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Oh, c'mon Angela, they all have big noses, can't you see? Or Barbra Streisand
    You mentioned by yourself how well insulated Jewish communities were in Europe and they went through bottleneck which probably was very influential in acquiring "the look". You know, of course, that how we look is in our DNA. It would be naive to assume that all of the European Jews lost the certain looks. It is true that they mingle a lot and most likely lost most members to general population through centuries and they won't be unrecognizable. But it is also true that the ones well insulated in secluded communities who survived till 21st century, will show more characteristic Ashkenazi/Jewish traits, some of them a lot. They look very European indeed, but there are some minute "accents" on their faces that make me say that they are Jewish traits.
    They might not even be Jewish traits from Near East, they might as well had been picked up in Europe, in bottleneck places, or from this 80% maternal european side upon arrival to Rome.
    And yes, I'm rarely sure, and best I can do is to say that he might be Jewish if he looks like Leonard Cohen, although Al Pacino would have fooled me, lol.

    "Jewish" is a religion. "Ashkenazi" is an ethnic designation
    I'm glad it was so easy to define it for you, Angela. Because even one of the smartest minds of 20th century struggled with it a bit.
    From Einstein:
    I am neither a German citizen, nor do I believe in anything that can be described as a "Jewish faith." But I am a Jew and glad to belong to the Jewish people, though I do not regard it in any way as chosen.
    I am by heritage a Jew, by citizenship a Swiss, and by makeup a human being, and only a human being, without any special attachment to any state or national entity whatsoever.
    I am a determinist. As such, I do not believe in free will. The Jews believe in free will. They believe that man shapes his own life. I reject that doctrine philosophically. In that respect I am not a Jew.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Oh, c'mon Angela, they all have big noses, can't you see? Or Barbra Streisand
    You mentioned by yourself how well insulated Jewish communities were in Europe and they went through bottleneck which probably was very influential in acquiring "the look". You know, of course, that how we look is in our DNA. It would be naive to assume that all of the European Jews lost the certain looks. It is true that they mingle a lot and most likely lost most members to general population through centuries and they won't be unrecognizable. But it is also true that the ones well insulated in secluded communities who survived till 21st century, will show more characteristic Ashkenazi/Jewish traits, some of them a lot. They look very European indeed, but there are some minute "accents" on their faces that make me say that they are Jewish traits.
    They might not even be Jewish traits from Near East, they might as well had been picked up in Europe, in bottleneck places, or from this 80% maternal european side upon arrival to Rome.
    And yes, I'm rarely sure, and best I can do is to say that he might be Jewish if he looks like Leonard Cohen, although Al Pacino would have fooled me, lol.


    I'm glad it was so easy to define it for you, Angela. Because even one of the smartest minds of 20th century struggled with it a bit.
    From Einstein:
    Actually, it was quite easy. :)

    I'm afraid I don't see your logic here at all. The Einstein quote is totally consistent with what I said...He states that he doesn't believe in the Jewish faith but he's a member of the Jewish people. In other words, there's a difference between his religious affiliation and his heritage and ethnicity. Just as there is in the case of Jean-Marie Lutsiger, who was born to Ashkenazi parents, but converted to Catholicism. I don't see the difficulty with distinguishing between the two things.

    Plus, although Einstein alluded to genetic inheritance, the field of human genetics virtually didn't exist in Einstein's time. Nobody even knew about the double helix of dna until James Watson published his work in 1968.

    Genetics doesn't lie...it is what it is...and that goes for everybody, not just the Ashkenazim. If you are even 1/32 Ashkenazi, it will show up on the 23andme Ancestry Comp, and you will get a thousand RF matches with Ashkenazim and it only stops at one thousand because they draw the line at one thousand matches. That's not an opinion...that's a certainty.

    And no matter how big your nose is, even if it's as big as that of Francois I of France, if you don't have that ancestry relatively recently in your family tree, you're not going to register as Ashkenazi on a dna test. Period and end of story.
    http://www.elizabethan-portraits.com/Francis3.jpg

    If you're so interested in the Jewish people, you might want to actually read some population genetics studies or genetic genealogy studies. A good place to start is the paper where this PCA plot appears...


    I'd be happy to provide you with citations to studies that deal with the matter.

    And I take great care to be specific and precise in my language... I never said that there weren't some rather Ashkenazi specific looks...maybe you have in mind someone like Larry David? And there are other typical looks among them. But not even all Ashkenazim look like him, and they don't all look the same. In addition, the people I posted are not Ashkenazim...they are Italian Jews, so the ones who aren't Italkim are mostly Sephardic, with probably some actual Italian admixture. There is a difference between the Sephardim and the Ashkenazim.

    In general, LeBrok, the fact that someone looks southern European does not mean that they look Ashkenazi, and vice versa. I prescribe a three month trip through the Mediterranean countries so that your eyes become accustomed to the differences. I can even provide travel tips free of charge.

    Plus, I think you are pulling my leg here, yes? Camillo Olivetti has a big "Jewish" nose? Or Modigliani? And a "big" nose by your standards makes someone look Jewish, more specifically Ashkenazi? So, Roberto Benigni is Jewish? Pope Pius the XII?

    How about William Gladstone, prime minister to Queen Victoria? Quite a handsome figure of a man, in my opinion, if rather grim looking.
    http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4128/...1731964d2d.jpg

    Or the great poet William Wordsworth?
    http://www.poetryfoundation.org/uplo...SjX4kGqEww.jpg

    Perhaps the great philosopher John Locke?
    http://www.the-philosophy.com/wp-con...john_locke.jpg

    Or Adam Smith?
    http://www.library.hbs.edu/hc/collec...dam_smith2.jpg

    No little snub noses on any of them.

    Perhaps the biggest correlation is with intelligence?

    I'm also aware of some old wives tales which correlate large noses in Europeans with certain other traits, but my feminine modesty prohibits me from discussing the matter.

    Btw, I think the nose on the hideous Mr. Wayne Rooney comes to Europe by way of the Baltics from eastern Asia.
    http://www.nndb.com/people/585/00005...yne-rooney.jpg
    Just saying...

    And of all the Italians to pick as looking Ashkenazi...Al Pacino doesn't look Ashkenazi *at all*, LeBrok. I'm afraid I have to actually take points away from you for that one. :)

    Unlike this guy, btw, who really does...the Mayor of Corleone, in Sicily, lol.
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_WkOhyAMEO8...0/Iannazzo.jpg

    And now I'm going to withdraw from this rather unsavory although amusing conversation and return to things that are quantifiable, like genetics.

    Buona notte...

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