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Thread: New map of mtDNA haplogroup U5

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    last 8 ice ages came in cycles of +/- 100.000 years
    last ice age was 20.000 years ago, the one before 128.000 years ago
    between 130.000 - 55.000 years ago there seem to have been several (4) wet periods in the Sahara and Arabia
    then it became gradualy dryer, and 20.000 years ago it became extremely dry
    maybe it was wet 13-16.000 years ago, and it was wet again 6-10.000 years ago
    12,7 - 11,6 years ago there was a cold spike (the 'youngest dryas') resulting in the tundra coming back all over Europe and a dry period in the Sahara and Arabia
    after that agriculture started in the Levant and southeast Anatolia
    wet periods in the Sahara seem to be coming with shifting monsoon winds
    Some of wet cycles affect only South Sahara region, with monsoons that you mentioned coming from south-west.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Sorry, I'm playing a little catch up here...I don't recall and can't seem to find any thread where Dienekes deconstructed the North East European component of K-12 in order to show it's relationship to other clusters, but, with the caveat that we're not talking about the same exact cluster, I think it still might be informative to consider what he says about the K=12b North European component.
    See:

    The North European in that analysis is about 2/3 Atlantic Med, a little less than 1/3 Gedrosia, and a slice of Siberian. Atlantic-Med itself is 90% Caucasus (which we know has a big "Southern" component along with North Euro), with about another 10% North Euro.

    If I had to guess, the North East Euro would have less Atlantic Med, less Gedrosia, and more Siberian.

    Just for comparison, these are the scores for Germans and Poles in the two analyses:
    North Euro/North East Euro
    Germans: 48/25.3
    Poles: 63%/44.9
    Lithuanians: 77/59

    This is my round about way of saying that I don't think that North East Euro equates to northern European mesolithics either. :)

    That component is mixed as well, just like the Northern European one. There is no remaining North Eurasian Mesolithic population...that's why they keep saying it's outside the range of modern variation. That's also why, I think, Skoglund said that the Northern Europeans are slightly more related to these people than are southern Europeans. We're all picking apart what is essentially not that much variation in Europe any longer, however stark the differences may have been in the early Mesolithic.

    As to Sardinians, I posted a study on another thread about the fact that in the Balkans the authors saw assimilation between the foragers and the farmers within a few hundred years. I don't know if that study will stand up in the face of the new results that hopefully will be coming from the Balkans soon. If they are correct, however, and even if I2a1 is "mesolithic", all the wives that the paper indicates they seem to have taken from the newcomers might indeed have changed the autosomal picture for them before some of them set out to colonize the western Mediterranean. On the other hand, should mtDNA "H" turn out to have a Mesolithic presence in Mediterranean Europe, then the calculus would be more in line with what Maciamo has suggested. Of course, if people then wanted, for whatever reason, to differentiate between Northern or North Eastern Mesolithic, and Southern European Mesolithic that could be done as well.
    Apologies for not having enough time to anwer more comprehensively. Just briefly: By "Northeastern" I actually meant "Northern" from K12b and "Eastern" from K12 at the same time, since both overlap strongly. Sorry for not being more clear.

    The samples found in Gotland and La Brana showed closest autosomal resemblance with Saami, Finns and to a wider extent also with Scandinavians, north Slavs and Balts - the last two admittedly more related to mtDNA U4 . That's why I'm sure the most paleolithic remnants can be found in the forests and tundras of northeastern europe.

    Regarding Atlantic_Med component, I believe that it is much older than Caucasus component. Dienekes thinks Caucasus is the source of nations, but he himself once provided analysis of clusters against each other where Atlantic_med turned out to be second oldest, while Caucasus was second newest. There is an older discussion about this buried somewhere in this forum. I think Atlantic_med was already in east-mediterranean during the paleolithic and partially spread to Iberia (some strong hints were already present in the La Brana hunter-gatherer), before later admixtures changed it in the near-east. But I'm not sure.
    Last edited by ElHorsto; 17-10-13 at 19:08. Reason: spelling : hits -> hints

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    I'm beginning to believe the very first Europeans were y-DNA I and mtdna U predominantly; followed after by R1b and mtdna H/V.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    R1a though came MUCH later towards Central Europe; even J2,E3b,T (Neolithic) lineages have been in Europe longer than R1a has fen in the Czech Republic, for example. As the Paleolithic transitioned towards the Neolithic we can imagine a slew of new incoming lineages to Europe.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    R1a though came MUCH later towards Central Europe; even J2,E3b,T (Neolithic) lineages have been in Europe longer than R1a has fen in the Czech Republic, for example. As the Paleolithic transitioned towards the Neolithic we can imagine a slew of new incoming lineages to Europe.
    Really? We have 8500 y.o. R1a clades in CE. while I have never heard about so old J2,E3b,T clades in CE.

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    The most recent common ancestor for all U5 women broke off from the rest of the group and headed north into Scandinavia. Even though U5 is descended from an ancestor in haplogroup U, it is also an ancient lineage, estimated to be around 50,000 years old. U5 is quite restricted in variation to Scandinavia, particularly to Finland. This is likely the result of the significant geographical, linguistic, and cultural isolation of the Finnish populations, which would have limited the geographical distribution of this subgroup and kept it fairly isolated. The Saami, reindeer hunters who follow the herds from Siberia to Scandinavia each season, have the U5 lineage at a very high frequency (50%) indicating that it may have been introduced during their movements into these northern territories. The U5 lineage is also found outside of Scandinavia, though at much lower frequencies and with much lower genetic diversity. Interestingly, the same exact U5 found in the Saami has also been found at very low frequencies in some north-African Berber populations of Morocco, Senegal and Algeria. Finding similar genetic lineages in populations living thousands of miles apart is certainly unexpected, and is likely the result of movements that occurred 15,000 years ago when the last ice age came to an end. In addition to being present in some parts of North Africa, U5 individuals are also found sporadically across the Middle East at 2% trace frequencies in people's such as Armenians!Kurds,Turks; none is present on the Arabian peninsula. Because these rare individuals have lineages that first evolved in Europe, their presence in the near east is due to back-migration of people who left Northern Europe and headed south, as though retracing the migratory paths of their own ancestors. About 5-10% of European women belong to mtdna U5.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    The most recent common ancestor for all U5 women broke off from the rest of the group and headed north into Scandinavia. Even though U5 is descended from an ancestor in haplogroup U, it is also an ancient lineage, estimated to be around 50,000 years old. U5 is quite restricted in variation to Scandinavia, particularly to Finland. This is likely the result of the significant geographical, linguistic, and cultural isolation of the Finnish populations, which would have limited the geographical distribution of this subgroup and kept it fairly isolated. The Saami, reindeer hunters who follow the herds from Siberia to Scandinavia each season, have the U5 lineage at a very high frequency (50%) indicating that it may have been introduced during their movements into these northern territories. The U5 lineage is also found outside of Scandinavia, though at much lower frequencies and with much lower genetic diversity. Interestingly, the same exact U5 found in the Saami has also been found at very low frequencies in some north-African Berber populations of Morocco, Senegal and Algeria. Finding similar genetic lineages in populations living thousands of miles apart is certainly unexpected, and is likely the result of movements that occurred 15,000 years ago when the last ice age came to an end. In addition to being present in some parts of North Africa, U5 individuals are also found sporadically across the Middle East at 2% trace frequencies in people's such as Armenians!Kurds,Turks; none is present on the Arabian peninsula. Because these rare individuals have lineages that first evolved in Europe, their presence in the near east is due to back-migration of people who left Northern Europe and headed south, as though retracing the migratory paths of their own ancestors. About 5-10% of European women belong to mtdna U5.
    There was a study on Danish mtDNA quite recently which was interesting. Small amounts of Saami U5 were found, but the majority (around 3/4) was U5a (mostly U5a1a1 and U5a1b), while in Iberia it is the other way around, with around 3/4 of the U5 being U5b as opposed to U5a. Quite interesting, but don't know what it means ultimately.
    'Wise men speak only of what they know' - J.R.R. Tolkien

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    Over all, Greeks,Italians,spaniards and Portuguese men only have about 5% mtdna U5 in total; it is quite scarce in these regions and pretty much everywhere in Europe other than Scandinavia. The French, Irish, Scottish and welsh have more like 10%; same for Bulgarians, Romanians, Bosnians, Slovenians and Macedonians, Hungarians, Austrians, Germans, poles, Czechs and Slovaks. The swedes, Norwegians, Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussians, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians and Finns (on a national level) have 15%. I don't have statistics on the Danes.

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    It seems that the further you move north and east across Europe, the higher the U5 frequencies become. I believe the basque and certain regions of France have slightly inflated frequencies though, particularly the first group I mentioned.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    It seems that the further you move north and east across Europe, the higher the U5 frequencies become. I believe the basque and certain regions of France have slightly inflated frequencies though, particularly the first group I mentioned.
    Here's a post from another forum about it (By GailT on Anthrogenica, her specialization seems to be U5):

    I'll use this thread for updates on new U5 sequences, starting with the results from the new Li et al study on diabetes in Denmark. The study has 2000 full mtDNA sequences, including 160 in haplogroup U5, or 8%. The sequencing is of uneven quality with some samples having large numbers of no calls, but I was able to place all but 1 in subclades of U5, listed below.

    It is interesting that Denmark is nearly 73% U5a and 27% U5b. The U5b samples are heavily concentrated in U5b2. In constrast, the recent 13 U5 samples from northwest Spain (Zamorra Province) were 31% U5a and 69% U5b.

    Some notable finds were new U5a1*, U5b1* and U5b3* samples.

    For two of the subclades found often in Finland, U5b1b1a and U5b1b2, there were no U5b1b1a samples, and there were 3 U5b1b2 samples. I've speculated that U5b1b1a arrived in Finland via an eastern European route, and U5b1b2 via a western European route, and these results seem consistent with that theory.


    U5a1 = 51%
    N = 84
    U5a1* = 1
    U5a1a1 = 31
    U5a1a2 = 5
    U5a1b = 22
    U5a1c2a = 9
    U5a1d = 3
    U5a1e = 1
    U5a1f = 4
    U5a1g = 4
    U5a1h = 4
    U5a1*i1 = 1

    U5a2 = 21%
    N = 34
    U5a2a = 13
    U5a2b = 10
    U5a2c = 5
    U5a2d = 3
    U5a2e = 1
    U5a2*g =1


    U5b1 = 7.6%
    N = 12
    U5b1* = 1
    U5b1b2 = 3
    U5b1c2 = 1
    U5b1c2b = 3
    U5b1d2 = 2
    U5b1e = 2


    U5b2 = 17%
    N = 27
    U5b2a1a1 = 3
    U5b2a1a1*C = 2
    U5b2a1a1*C2 = 2
    U5b2a2a1 = 4
    U5b2a2b = 1
    U5b2a2b1 = 3
    U5b2a2c = 1
    U5b2a4a = 1
    U5b2a5 = 1

    U5b2b* = 1
    U5b2b1a = 1
    U5b2b4 = 3
    U5b2b4*B = 2
    U5b2b4*B1 = 1

    U5b2c2b = 1


    U5b3 = 1.3%
    N = 2
    U5b3* = 1
    U5b3e = 1

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    So most Danish U5 seems to be of the U5a variety; very interesting, but what are the overall frequencies of U5 in Denmark?; I doubt they exceed 5-15% so U5 isn't particularly frequent in Denmark either way.

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    But according to its subclade distribution, 70% are U5a whereas 30% are U5b...does anyone have any information on were U5a is most frequent and were it's highest diversity is and same for U5b; thanks in advance. : )

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    So most Danish U5 seems to be of the U5a variety; very interesting, but what are the overall frequencies of U5 in Denmark?; I doubt they exceed 5-15% so U5 isn't particularly frequent in Denmark either way.
    8% According to this study, but of course it will vary by sample, so 5-15% seems a reasonable enough estimate. :)

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    There is no remaining North Eurasian Mesolithic population...that's why they keep saying it's outside the range of modern variation.
    Yes. There must be. We all are the remaining North Eurasian Mesolithic population. It must be because of the following logic.

    We know for sure that the most abundant mtDNA haplogroup of mesolthic hunter-gatherers is U5/U4/U. We also know that there is ample archeological evidence that hunter-gatherers lived alongside the new farmers for thousands of years, even if separated from them. We have DNA from a number of those cultures which lived alongside farmers and they are mtDNA U5/U4/U.

    If these people managed to remain alive and remain their own culture for several thousand years, they must have been relatively immune to the diseases that exterminated all other HG's on other continents that came into first contact with farmers. They were decimated, whereas European HGs were not. And lo and behold, guess what was found in La Brana 1: La Brana 1 has derived alleles at loci associated with pathogen resistance.

    We know the core of Europe has about one third WHG admixture. We found that after LBK the number of U mtDNA in farmers goes up.

    There is no other possibility than that we all in Europe are the remaining HG's. Partly, that is.
    Last edited by epoch; 27-01-14 at 07:21.

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    Thumbs up Very interesting!

    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    I'm beginning to believe the very first Europeans were y-DNA I and mtdna U predominantly; followed after by R1b and mtdna H/V.
    I belong to both haplogroups and I have always been curious about their origins and age ever since I discovered that my Father belongs to haplogroup I and my Mother to haplogroup U. It seems that it is the oldest purely European haplogroup line, and, apparently, rare in the present-day.
    Last edited by Original European; 31-03-14 at 00:51.

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    Hello everyone. I have just registered with this site having received my mtDNA results from Family Tree DNA. I am just beginning my journey and hope to learn lots about my haplogroup - U5b1c2b.

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    U5b (or U5b1) is specific to Saami (not U5a), correct? And that is also how they are connected to Berbers. I am having a mess with my DNA testing because I am only Scandinavian ancestry, with northern Swedes (who looked Saami), and I'm coming up with anything from bits of North Africa to Lithuania, Ukraine, and Komi Russia all over my admixtures. No. Uff. U5a is more common elsewhere in Scandinavia, like this map. This is U5a?

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    U5 was found in a First Intermediate Egypt mummy.

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    Good Day, Maciamo. I've been reading many of your brilliant posts and I'm really impressed with your knowledge. I'm in mtDNA Haplogroup U5. Thank you for all the work you put into sharing so much interesting information here.

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    Red face U5a & U5b Saami question

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd View Post
    U5b (or U5b1) is specific to Saami (not U5a), correct? And that is also how they are connected to Berbers. I am having a mess with my DNA testing because I am only Scandinavian ancestry, with northern Swedes (who looked Saami), and I'm coming up with anything from bits of North Africa to Lithuania, Ukraine, and Komi Russia all over my admixtures. No. Uff. U5a is more common elsewhere in Scandinavia, like this map. This is U5a?
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Hello "Nerd". How are you? That is an interesting question. Some of the places you mention would correspond to other areas where such U5b1b1 mtDNA is now found likely due to migrations, marriages, etc. Additionally, I believe there are some Saami with U5a, as well as other people, (including some of those from Sweden), but that the U5b1b1 subclade is more specifically or more exclusive to the Saami? However, U5b1b1 subclade was also found to have made it to the Berbers and the Yakuts. I found something that can shed more light on what you are asking about in regards to these other places you mentioned, (besides Northern Sweden), which is the fascinating article called: "Haplogroup U5 mtDNA", by Maciamo Hay (2017), at:
    eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_U5_mtDNA.shtml

    There are also some U5a examples of Saami mtDNA from Saami Project: myDNA public results (though without personal names), these are results of Saami mtDNA Haplogroups and subclades, and some of them (on pages 4-5 ), do have U5a, so it is not unheard of. familytreedna.com/public/Saami?iframe=mtresults

    Were you wondering if you have some Saami ancestry, although you are U5a? It is certainly still possible. Is your family aware of your family tree, and if so is there any mention of this? -- Or is your interest purely academic? Either way, I hope these links will help you in your research.

    Kind Regards, Explorer
    Last edited by Explorer; 20-06-18 at 05:53. Reason: Typographical correction

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    Either this map is wrong or the author.

    U5 As in the case of the hapl. U2, we again see strange contradictions. Judging by the map in Daghestan, only Avars have this hapl. U5 and also those Avars who live in Northern Azerbaijan. No Dargins as owners of allegedly hapl. U2, contrary to the author’s opinion, are not indicated on this map. It's all territory of Avars.And why, when they write about Darghins, they always appear on the Avar territory? Do they have their own land?

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    Celto-Germanic
    Country: USA - Rhode Island



    My stepfather belongs to U5a mtdna, he is Italian in maternal descent, most likely from southern Italy, as most of his Italian ancestors came from that part of the country and it is likely his matriline is from that part of the country. In comparison I (and my mother) are Irish origin J1c

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