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Thread: New map of mtDNA haplogroup J

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

    Post New map of mtDNA haplogroup J

    Here is the distribution map of mt-haplogroup J.



    Although it hasn't been found yet in Mesolithic or Palaeolithic Europe, it is possible that J was already in Europe before the Neolithic, especially for J2a1 and J1c, which are rare outside Europe.

    Samples have been identified J samples (J1*, J1c and J2b1a) from various Neolithic sites, including Linear Pottery culture (LBK) in Central Europe, the Cardium Pottery culture in southern France, Megalithic cultures in northern Spain, and the Funnelbeaker Culture in Germany and Sweden.

    Haplogroup J has been found in Bronze Age samples from the Corded Ware culture (J1c and J2b1a) and Urnfield culture (J1b and J1b1a). The Corded Ware culture is associated with the expansion of Y-haplogroup R1a from the northern Russian steppe, and in light of the continuity with Neolithic samples from Central Europe it can be assumed that J1c and J2b1a maternal lineages were not brought by the newcomers, but absorbed by the male invaders.

    The lack of correlation between mtDNA J and Y-DNA R1a is also evident from the facta that mtDNA J has never been found in Bronze Age sites linked that yielded R1a samples in Russia, Central Asia, Siberia or Mongolia. The oldest J sample in North Asia are from the Iron Age Scytho-Siberian Pazyryk culture (6th to 3rd century BCE) and the Iron Age Xiongnu culture, and could have been brought by later migrations from southern Central Asia, notably by the Scythians.

    On the other hand, J1b has never been found in Europe before the Bronze Age and was very probably brought by the Indo-Europeans carrying R1b paternal lineages. J1b has also been found among African tribes carrying R1b-V88 lineages, which would presume that J1b was one of the original maternal lineages found in R1b populations at least since the Early Neolithic (see R1b history). The absence of J1b in Bronze Age sites associated with the expansion of the R1a branches of the Indo-Europeans (Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian) supports that European J1b is exclusively associated with ancient R1b populations.

    UPDATE: check the new Eupedia page dedicated to mt-haplogroup J.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 17-01-14 at 17:02.
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a1a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Here is the distribution map of mt-haplogroup J.



    The origins of J are complicated. Although it hasn't been found yet in Mesolithic or Palaeolithic Europe, it is possible that J was already in Europe before the Neolithic. Samples have been identified from various Neolithic sites, including Linear Pottery culture (LBK) in Central Europe, the Cardium Pottery culture in southern France, Megalithic cultures in northern Spain, and the Funnelbeaker Culture in Germany and Sweden.

    During the Bronze Age, J has been found in the Urnfield and Corded Ware sites. However I would tend to think that it represent the maternal lineages inherited from the Neolithic rather than new lineages brought by R1a/R1b conquerors. Indeed, mtDNA J has never been found in Bronze Age sites linked with the Indo-Europeans in Russia, Ukraine, Central Asia, Siberia or Mongolia, although J is present in these regions today. The oldest J sample in North Asia are from the Iron Age Scytho-Siberian Pazyryk culture (6th to 3rd century BCE) and the Iron Age Xiongnu culture, and could have been brought by later migrations from southern Central Asia, notably by the Scythians.

    It is hard to explain the various hotspots of J in Europe: the Western Isles of Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Denmark, the French Pyrénées and Aragon...

    In Denmark's case, J probably came through the LBK culture from Germany, and might have prospered due to a founder effect or some intrinsic evolutionary advantage. It has been claimed that carriers of haplogroup J have a greater resistance to cold, and that this may be why it was positively selected in Scandinavia. That could also apply for the British Isles, Estonia and the adjacent Pskov oblast in Russia. This would also make sense for the Arabian peninsula where night time temperature often fall very low.

    The Pyrénées, Aragon and Sardinia could be seen as relatively isolated regions where Neolithic lineages survived better various invasions through the ages.
    Is there enough data on J1c to do a map on that subclade? Would it make the hotspots in Western Europe?

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    Some of these mtDNA haplogroups are so random..it's hard to give them an explanation..

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    Quote Originally Posted by elghund View Post
    Is there enough data on J1c to do a map on that subclade? Would it make the hotspots in Western Europe?
    No, I have almost no data on separate J subclades. Anyway J1c is by far the largest J subclade in Europe, representing about half of all J lineages.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2A1B M67 Re
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J* Jasmine

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    thank you for the maps -- at long last some proper mtDNA maps -- very intersting -- my maternal ancestors are from western scotland so its likely i am what sykes calls a sea Jasmine -- J is strong in the west my last known maternal ancestor was an agnes MacDonald from western scotland --- i believe MacDonald was from the isles .

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    You will want to remove "Celto-Germanic" from your title; you are mtdna J and y-DNA J-M67; this is VERY rare for an Englishman in that your genetic composition is of Neolithic and middle eastern origin.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Mtdna J originated and peaks in frequency in the Middle East and M67 probably originated near Georgia-0/ArmeniaArmenia

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    What nationality are you; your flag indicates BritishBritish

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    There's no way that a y-DNA J-M67 and an mtdna J is considered Celto-Germanic; I don't know what your other haplogroups are but you fit better in turkey or Iraq than as a German or Polish man.

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    Mtdna J peaks in parts of Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen etc. I believe; J-M67 peaks near Georgia/turkey/Armenia and among Chechens for example.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    You will want to remove "Celto-Germanic" from your title; you are mtdna J and y-DNA J-M67; this is VERY rare for an Englishman in that your genetic composition is of Neolithic and middle eastern origin.
    Adamo, what you say about HG Y and mt is very true but if DNA-Y and DNA-mt percentages can tell us something about a big population concerning autosomals, at the INFIVIDUAL level it says nothing statistically available - it is as trying to tell the originS of a person relying on his patronymic name (on the females side I find no evident comparison as names); the Y and mt HGs tell very very few about the total genome -
    + mt J is srtrong enough in the western part of Britain - as a whole I think it is a neolithical mt-HG (but who can bit sure?)

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    Very interesting to see a French man belonging to the youngest P312* sub-group; the "islands" insular Celtic R-L21. You represent about 5-10% of French males in total with a high in the Bretagne region of north-western France. north Italy, Germany, Switzerland and parts of Austria, Spain, Denmark and Sweden have 1-5%. Belgium and France have 5-10%. Much of northernmost Spain has 5-10% and all of France has 5-10% except for the province of Brittany were as much as 40-50% are R-L21. By the time we reach nearby provinces such as Normandie, Anjou, Maine the frequencies drop from 30-50% to only 15-20% of males; most of France actually has 5-10%. Scotland has 50-60% R-L21 and wales has 40-60%. England has about 35-40% on average with highs in the north and west of 40-50% and lows towards the south and east of 30-15%. Ireland has more than 75% of it.

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    In fact, the M-222 subclade of R-L21 is said to have originated on Ireland as of course it is by far most frequent there (but also found on occasion on the nearby islands coast to the east).

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    As for mtdna J; it represents about 8-10% of European females. It is a more recent Neolithic marker that arrived more recently with ancient agriculturalists and Jews of course. Mtdna J is found in 10% of Armenian, Croatian, Czech, Estonian, Greek, German, Hungarian, Libyan, Dutch, Norwegian, Palestinian, Slovenian, Slovakian, and Swiss women. 15% of welsh, 11% of Irish and 9% of Syrian and Turkish women are mtdna J, for example. It is spread in both European and middle eastern countries due to it's spread from the Middle East towards Europe during the Neolithic revolution 10,000-15,000 years ago. In Aragon, Spain, it represents 16% of female lineages. Oddly frequencies are slightly higher towards the British isles (Wales,Ireland,England) and near holland Germany,Denmark 10-15% and towards the southeast near Greece than anywhere else in Europe. 13% of Scottish women are J. Kurds have about 15% and england that's 12%, Iraq, Denmark and Iceland oddly have 14%.

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    The worlds highest frequencies for mtdna J are found across east-central turkey, Syria, Iraq, and the western half of Armenia not to mention parts of northeastern Saudi Arabia at 25% of females throughout these regions. Parts of north-central Saudi Arabia, western Iran, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia and the Caucasus, Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Germany, holland, Belgium, and Austria have as high as 20%. Yemen, Oman, southern Saudi Arabia, UAE, most of Iran, Denmark, Croatia, Slovenia, eastern England have 15%. Most of Scandinavia and France including Scotland and Ireland or Italy have 10%.

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    When mtdna J types are found in Europe; one of two hypotheses is established for it's origin; it is either recent, which means probably that Jews during the medieval period such as Ashkenazi Jews (Eastern European Jews) females brought it over in low frequency, or, if it isn't ultimately of Jewish origin (many Jewish communities set up across Germany, Poland, Ukraine, Belarus; even Italy, Spain, Portugal and France) then it is probably of far more ancient Neolithic origin, having arrived 10,000-15,000 years ago from the Middle East were it is still today most frequently found (particularly in regions associated with agriculture such as turkey,Syria,Iraq,Western Iran but even Saudi Arabia and Yemen for example. Thus, by the time the Middle Ages would arrive, many of these mtdna J women of Europe would long have been incorporated as a regular "substratum" among the more pre-eminent Celtic or Slavic or whatever host populations; being of French, Danish or German origin and never quite grasping or realizing that they had a rare Neolithic middle eastern maternal marker.

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    R-L21 is most frequent in Ireland (75%), Scotland (55% estimate), Wales (45% estimate) England (35% estimate) Iceland (15-20%) and France (10%). It becomes most frequent paternal haplogroup in Bretagne region of France I believe (40-50%) but frequencies die off quickly towards literally adjacent provinces. Nearby Normandie and Anjou only have 15-20%. Frequencies in the center, south and east of the country are more like 5-10% (90% of the country's territorial mass.) The region sure does seem to be related to "la Bretagne", but it lacks the Celto-Germanic (R1b U-106) lineages of the English, meaning either that this migration from England to northwestern France either took place BEFORE the arrival of Germanics to England, or that it didn't arrive from England at all, but more likely from Ireland. We would have to see the age of the Bretagne region's R1b L21 samples to determine wether they are older or younger than both those on Ireland and on the adjoining island of United Kingdom. It may be the old remnant founder effect, meaning that the first and oldest R-L21 clades are the French ones, but according to the name and history of the place, I personally believe there's a connection with Ireland here.

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    3 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    There's no way that a y-DNA J-M67 and an mtdna J is considered Celto-Germanic; I don't know what your other haplogroups are but you fit better in turkey or Iraq than as a German or Polish man.
    First, mtDNA has almost nothing to do with ethnicity since it only represents 0.000005% of the human genome. It's amazing that you have managed to write 1500 posts on a forum mostly dedicated to mtDNA and Y-DNA and you still don't know that.

    Secondly, almost all top-level mtDNA haplogroups except L originated in the Middle East or Northeast Africa during the Palaeolithic. Without looking at the deep subclades knowing one's mtDNA haplogroup is pretty much useless for population genetics. Haplogroup J surely reached Europe sometime between 15,000 and 7,000 years ago. There is a high chance that it has been present in Europe for longer than Y-haplogroup R1b.

    Considering the high frequency of many J subclades (esp. J1c) in Western/Central Europe and Scandinavia, I don't see anything wrong with calling them Celto-Germanic, even if they were present there well before the Indo-Europeans' arrival. After all Celtic and Germanic cultures only developed from the merger of Proto-Indo-Europeans with Neolithic inhabitants of these regions. Since those Celtic and Germanic blends owe a lot to female Neolithic lineages (including a considerable number of assimilated Mesolithic lineages), it makes sense to see all typically western, central and northern European mtDNA lineages as Celto-Germanic too. Evolution, cultures and languages didn't stop during the Neolithic.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I don't call mtdna J Celtic because it's been in Europe for much shorter than forms of mtdna U for example; different haplogroup, different time and place of origin and different migration. Certain particular haplogroups are more likely to be found in; and in this sense, characterize certain populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    You will want to remove "Celto-Germanic" from your title; you are mtdna J and y-DNA J-M67; this is VERY rare for an Englishman in that your genetic composition is of Neolithic and middle eastern origin.
    maybe the term celto-germanic is completely wrong and should be replaced by term Alpine-Refurgium , as these people where neither germanic, nor italic, nor slavic, ............an ancient people from the term "Old Europe". who comprised of many Mtdna and Ydna markers and subclades...........even "odd" markers like L ydna.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    There's no way that a y-DNA J-M67 and an mtdna J is considered Celto-Germanic; I don't know what your other haplogroups are but you fit better in turkey or Iraq than as a German or Polish man.
    Well he might be autosomally quite normal for the British isles but have unusual direct lineages.
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    Well anyways; his direct paternal and maternal lineages are curiously of more recent middle eastern origin than most of his countries R1b and minda H, U compatriots; J finds it's origins and highest frequencies in the Middle East (literally both lineages lol) He is J-M67 (particular subclade found in like, what? 1% of British males?) which clearly has frequency peaks in the Caucasus region of turkey,Georgia,Armenia and Chechnya etc.) and mtdna J which as well originated with agriculturalists in the Middle East is quite rare in Europe as well.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    What do europe's oldest haplogroup samples come up positive for?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    What do europe's oldest haplogroup samples come up positive for?
    I think U5, U4 and apparently some H in Iberia as well.

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    Good answer but I meant y-dna; what is this story of the first samples being F, G; what exactly where euro's male haplogroups; I've always said I and R1b but let's here what really smart guys like Maciamo have to say

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