New map of mtDNA haplogroup HV

[Sile]

Weren't the thracians related to Dacians; a Balkanic people? I would have suspected the Thracian element of being I2a, Bulgars seem like the J2 or E3b group.

yes for Ydna, but we are discussing mtDna for thracians and MtDna for HV

[adamo]

HV according to this is only really present in Iraqi and southeastern Turkish females (10%). Then somehow Bulgaria and Calabria seem affected as well. It must have been two separate Neolithic migrations cause I don't see a Bulgaria/Calabria connection unless it's passing by Albania or Greece.

[adamo]

Why so heavy in Calabria but still present in Tuscany? Considering both regions were colonized by different substratums of men; now why so frequent in Calabria but absent in Albania and Greece? IS there a historical movement to suggest this (I would say no beforehand) or is it ancient Neolithic component?

[Maciamo]

Why so heavy in Calabria but still present in Tuscany? Considering both regions were colonized by different substratums of men; now why so frequent in Calabria but absent in Albania and Greece? IS there a historical movement to suggest this (I would say no beforehand) or is it ancient Neolithic component?

The sample sizes for Calabria and Albania are both small, so it would be wise to wait for more ample data before drawing any conclusion.

[kamani]

I would have suspected the Thracian element of being I2a, Bulgars seem like the J2 or E3b group.

Bulgars are Pelasgian/Thracian (J2 + E3b) mixed with Slavic (I2a + R1a). The HV are the Pelasgian women, that's why you find them in the typical Pelasgian places (Calabria, Tuscany, 5% in Albania according to Bosch), and in large percentages in places where E3b came from such as South-East Anatolia.

[Sile]

Bulgars are Pelasgian/Thracian (J2 + E3b) mixed with Slavic (I2a + R1a). The HV are the Pelasgian women, that's why you find them in the typical Pelasgian places (Calabria, Tuscany, 5% in Albania according to Bosch), and in large percentages in places where E3b came from such as South-East Anatolia.

thracians and bulgars are a pontid race, the thracian with cimmerians ( their closest relatives) came from the north of modern bulgaria. the bulgars came in bulgaria later in the medieval times.

East Mediterranean or Pontid race (Black Sea coast of Ukraine, Romania and Bulgaria)
black hair, pale skin and light coloured eyes

[Sile]

Yes of course that goes with out saying;
Iron-age Bulgaria = Indo-European Thracians / Thraco-Cimmerian complex
+ all available Historical documentations of the Ancient scholars;

Modern-day Bulgarians are from the Thracians plus medieval Bulgars; Your find and this map clearly illustrate the Thracian heritage and continuity;



Thracians were Indo-Europeans and therefor from the Urheimat like all other Indo-Europeans;
And judging by the Thraco-Cimmerian complex the Thracians came via the Danube from North Black sea to the East Balkans and after the Indo-European Hittite empire collapsed - the Thracians (several tribes) crossed into Anatolia from Europe;

Strabo - Book VII/III
And the Phrygians themselves are Brigians, a Thracian tribe, as are also the Mygdonians, the Bebricians, the Medobithynians, the Bithynians, and the Thynians, and, I think, also the Mariandynians. These peoples, to be sure, have all utterly quitted Europe, but the Mysi have remained there.

Kristian Kristiansen - Europe before History (1999)
Classical sources mention between fifty and one hundred Thracian tribes.....Thracian culture was heavily influenced by the Pontic cultural koine around the Black Sea, by Macedonia, and by the neighbouring states on the coast of Asia Minor. This takes us back to the 9th and 8th centuries.....In a survey of Macedonian and Thracian bronzes Jan Bouzek (1973;1974) demonstrated the emergence of a circum-Pontic or Thraco-Cimmerian cultural koine from 800 BC. Here old Urnfield traditions in metalwork mixed with new Cimmerian influences originating in the Caucasian region,

Are the mysi ...the moesi or maudi or "medes" the settled with the dacians?

[kamani]

thracians and bulgars are a pontid race, the thracian with cimmerians ( their closest relatives) came from the north of modern bulgaria. the bulgars came in bulgaria later in the medieval times.

East Mediterranean or Pontid race (Black Sea coast of Ukraine, Romania and Bulgaria)
black hair, pale skin and light coloured eyes

and Bulgar J2+E3b also came from Ukraine ?!

[Goga]

and Bulgar J2+E3b also came from Ukraine ?!

I think that E3b is Southeast European: native Bulgarian, Balkanian, Greek or something like that. Has nothing to do with Ukraine nor Anatolia.

Some J2a and R1a types came from West Asia through the Steppes, while some Euopean types of R1a were brought by the Europeans (Slavic, Germanic etc.).

According to me part of (non-Neolithic) Bulgarian mtDNA haplogroup 'HV' arrived in Bulgaria with Y-DNA haplogroups J2a & West Asian R1a from the Steppes.

[Goga]

I'm sure that West Asian mtDNA and West Asian Y-DNA in Bulgaria correlates very smoothly with each other. So there must be a link between mtDNA haplogorup HV and Y-DNA haplogroups J2a, West Asian clades of R1a and even some R1b...

[ElHorsto]

Dienekes once discussed an abstract which stated that autosomal analysis of an Iron Age Bulgarian (whom he referred to as a Thracian) showed that he was very "Oetzi" or Sardinian like...here is the Dienekes thread:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09...re-online.html

This is where the abstract can be found:
http://www.ashg.org/2012meeting/abst...f120123058.htm

And this is the intriguing quote:
"Strikingly, an analysis including novel ancient DNA data from an early Iron Age individual from Bulgaria also shows the strongest affinity of this individual with modern-day Sardinians. Our results show that the Tyrolean Iceman was not a recent migrant from Sardinia, but rather that among contemporary Europeans, Sardinians represent the population most closely related to populations present in the Southern Alpine region around 5000 years ago. The genetic affinity of ancient DNA samples from distant parts of Europe with Sardinians also suggests that this genetic signature was much more widespread across Europe during the Bronze Age."

Does anyone know if the paper has appeared anywhere? That doesn't sound like someone from the Steppes to me, unless the people from the Steppes are pretty different from many conceptions of them. Or is it possible that individual pockets of older inhabitants survived?

I think "Sardinian" has to be read in a wider sense, meaning generic south-european-like. I rather tend to agree here with davidski's comment and also with the reader's comments:
http://polishgenes.blogspot.de/2013/...-bulgaria.html

[Nobody1]

Are the mysi ...the moesi or maudi or "medes" the settled with the dacians?

Strabo - Book VII/III-V
The Greeks indeed considered the Getæ to be Thracians. They occupied either bank of the Danube, as also did the Mysians, likewise a Thracian people, now called the Moesi.....Next to the territory of the Scordisci, lying along the banks of the Danube, is the country of the Triballi and Mysi, whom we have before mentioned

Homer - Iliad XIII
Now when Jove had thus brought Hector and the Trojans to the ships, he left them to their never-ending toil, and turned his keen eyes away, looking elsewhither towards the horse-breeders of Thrace, the Mysians, fighters at close quarters, the noble Hippemolgi, who live on milk, and the Abians, justest of mankind.

The Mysi (Moesi) were Thracians that lived in Thrace east of the Triballi and Scordisci; and also on both sides of the Danube (Ister) which would mean next to (amongst) the Dacians as well; The Thracian Getae and Thracian Mysi (Moesi) seems were of the same (common) Thracian stock which would make the Getae close to the Moesi (Mysi) of later Roman times;

[adamo]

Wait up a second......the Lydians of turkey were once known as Mysians/Moesians....what a minute; the Mysians are similar to Georgian Meshketi/Moscheti, the thracians COULdN'T have been related to Dacians or I2a people's; they were bloody pelasgians as well

[adamo]

Were the Moesians and all thracians of Anatolian/Caucasus stock?

[adamo]

And nobody you still haven't answered my research in the J2 folder on Sabine origins.

[adamo]

During a transitory phase between Hittites/Leleges to Lydians, thetlydians were known as Moesians.

[albanopolis]

Its absurd to consider the sources of antiquity as accurate. They ( historians) traveled in horseback and individually. How far an individual can travell? They had no responsability for any mistake since, their endevours were voluntary. Especially Greek historians that have been proven of being liers, its absurd conidering their writtings as true.

[adamo]

Sardinians are not Southern Europeans; they're genetically unique with a high north-European maternal component and the world's highest frequencies of I-M26 (40%).

[adamo]

Well Herodotus ended up being right on the Etruscans and Livy was a excellent historian; not everything historians said was nonsense.

[ElHorsto]

Sardinians are not Southern Europeans; they're genetically unique with a high north-European maternal component and the world's highest frequencies of I-M26 (40%).

But what is true then, the near-eastern mtDNA and Y-DNA of the Thracian samples, or their autosomal closenes to Sardinians?
By the way I tend to disagree regarding the Sardinians, they are as mediterranean as one can be. The meaning of haplogroup lineages has its limits I think.

[ElHorsto]

Again regarding autosomal comparison of Thracians with Sardinians I think that ancient Thracians might appear closer to Sardinians autosomally if they lack the north-european admixture (from slavs, germanics), because the Sardinians did not undergo bronze-age and later admixtures from north-europeans. That's why I'm sure Sardinians are the less admixted true south-europeans, more preserved from the neolithic. But I believe Thracians had more "Caucasus" admixture than Sardinians have. Also Ötzi had a little bit more of it than Sardinians so Thracians could have had even more.

[Nobody1]

Wait up a second......the Lydians of turkey were once known as Mysians/Moesians....what a minute; the Mysians are similar to Georgian Meshketi/Moscheti, the thracians COULdN'T have been related to Dacians or I2a people's; they were bloody pelasgians as well

That part i posted about on page1/post#16

Strabo - Book VII/III
the Mysi, these also being Thracians and identical with the people who are now called Moesi; from these Mysi sprang also the Mysi who now live between the Lydians and the Phrygians and Trojans. And the Phrygians themselves are Brigians, a Thracian tribe, as are also the Mygdonians, the Bebricians, the Medobithynians, the Bithynians, and the Thynians, and, I think, also the Mariandynians. These peoples, to be sure, have all utterly quitted Europe, but the Mysi have remained there.

Several tribes of the Indo-European Thracians swarmed into Anatolia (from Europe) after the collapse of the Indo-European Hittite Empire; The Getae and Mysi(Moesi) def. remained in Europe (Thrace east of Scordisci and Triballi and beyond the Danube) as recorded by the ancient scholars;

[adamo]

Who were they according to you?

[Nobody1]

Again regarding autosomal comparison of Thracians with Sardinians I think that ancient Thracians might appear closer to Sardinians autosomally if they lack the north-european admixture (from slavs, germanics), because the Sardinians did not undergo bronze-age and later admixtures from north-europeans. That's why I'm sure Sardinians are the less admixted true south-europeans, more preserved from the neolithic. But I believe Thracians had more "Caucasus" admixture than Sardinians have. Also Ötzi had a little bit more of it than Sardinians so Thracians could have had even more.

Maybe that individual was of a subjugated remnant population of the pre-Indo-European Gumelnita-Karanovo VI-Varna complex; Which would correspond with its Neolithic Ötzi links and the broader Neolithic expansions into Europe (especially Balkans and Alpine area)

Gök4 was as far north as south Sweden but still with very strong Mediterranid links and her strong related ancestry to modern-day Sardinians - seems that these Neolithic peoples were from a common stock;

With the modern-day Sardinians being still closest to them due to their isolation and modern-day Finns and Estonian closer to hunter-gatherers; And both Sardinians and Finns also cluster in a world of their own (isolated) in comparison to other modern-day European pops - These two aspects show that they are still left behind and of a very Old European stock;

[Angela]

Well Herodotus ended up being right on the Etruscans and Livy was a excellent historian; not everything historians said was nonsense.

As I've said before, all we have is mtDNA, and even in that case, it's only HVRI...no yDNA and no autosomal DNA. Plus, we don't know if those samples from elite burials were representative of the majority of the population.

This is the latest paper on the mtDNA.

Origins and Evolution of the Etruscans' MtDNA, Ghirotto et al...
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0055519

One interesting finding is that in the areas sampled (all connected to the Etruscans) only in Volterra and Casentino did the authors find a link between the mtDNA of the ancient Etruscans and the modern Tuscans.