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Thread: New map of mtDNA haplogroup HV

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    3 members found this post helpful.

    Post New map of mtDNA haplogroup HV

    Here comes the map of haplogroup HV, the mother of H and V, which appears to have originated in the Middle East. HV peaks in Mesopotamia and Iran. In Europe it reflects the establishment of some Neolithic farmers (esp. between Bulgaria and southern Belarus), which may correspond to Y-haplogroups J and T, rather than E1b1b or G2a.

    The high frequency of HV in Calabria and Sicily is more difficult to explain since it far exceeds the levels observed in Greece. They may be due to founder effects among either the Neolithic or Greek colonisers. On the other hand the percentage in Tuscany is similar to that of Turkey, the presumed homeland of the Etruscans.

    I have to double check the sources for Iceland as nothing can explain the 3.6% of HV reported.



    N.B. : This map does not include the data for HV0 (aka pre-V), which was merged with the data for haplogroup V.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 30-10-13 at 10:04.
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    I wonder how Bulgarians have so much of it and Macedonians which are basically the same stock as them have in western part below 0 ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Here comes the map of haplogroup HV, the mother of H and V, which appears to have originated in the Middle East. HV peaks in Mesopotamia and Iran. In Europe it reflects the establishment of some Neolithic farmers (esp. between Bulgaria and southern Belarus), which may correspond to Y-haplogroups J and T, rather than E1b1b or G2a.

    The high frequency of HV in Calabria and Sicily is more difficult to explain since it far exceeds the levels observed in Greece. They may be due to founder effects among either the Neolithic or Greek colonisers. On the other hand the percentage in Tuscany is similar to that of Turkey, the presumed homeland of the Etruscans.

    I have to double check the sources for Iceland as nothing can explain the 3.6% of HV reported.
    If V was born of HV and it was born in Iberia, how could HV be restricted to Neolithic or later migrations to Europe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by elghund View Post
    If V was born of HV and it was born in Iberia, how could HV be restricted to Neolithic or later migrations to Europe?
    Maybe different more 'recent' subclades of HV migrated later into Europe? Btw, I do think that some 'recent' subclades of HV (like mine type) migrated much later into Europe. Maybe with the Jews or even Iranic Alanians...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Here comes the map of haplogroup HV, the mother of H and V, which appears to have originated in the Middle East. HV peaks in Mesopotamia and Iran. In Europe it reflects the establishment of some Neolithic farmers (esp. between Bulgaria and southern Belarus), which may correspond to Y-haplogroups J and T, rather than E1b1b or G2a.
    Great work like always. How many hours of work do you put into these maps? This is madness. Thanks! HV in Bulgaria and Ukraine can be linked to Iranic tribes from the Eastern Steppes.

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    "Scholars claim Bulgarians descended from Iran. The place of origin of the Ancient Bulgarians is most likely Eastern Iran, a group of anthropologists and scientists have claimed after an exploratory trip to the Persian lands." : http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=117903

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    There is also a lot J2a in Bulgaria. This mtDNA haplogroup HV correspondents very well with 'Iranian' Y-DNA haplogroup J2a! "Bulgarian expedition travels to Iran in search of roots" - http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=117192

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    I assume Haplogroup HV was present in Europe already during paleolithicum, but most of it probably arrived in Europe during neolithic period.

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    30% of Macedonia's population is Albanian. Albanians score low in this clade. So this could be partly responsable for low macedonian infusion of this haplogroup. What amazes me is the fact that Italians are heavyly of Middle Eastern heretage in male and female side. So are the Greeks but that fact was well known for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Here comes the map of haplogroup HV, the mother of H and V, which appears to have originated in the Middle East. HV peaks in Mesopotamia and Iran. In Europe it reflects the establishment of some Neolithic farmers (esp. between Bulgaria and southern Belarus), which may correspond to Y-haplogroups J and T, rather than E1b1b or G2a.

    The high frequency of HV in Calabria and Sicily is more difficult to explain since it far exceeds the levels observed in Greece. They may be due to founder effects among either the Neolithic or Greek colonisers. On the other hand the percentage in Tuscany is similar to that of Turkey, the presumed homeland of the Etruscans.

    I have to double check the sources for Iceland as nothing can explain the 3.6% of HV reported.

    The first thing that I thought of in terms of Calabria was the R1b1 Ht35 map. It'a a pretty good fit for Italy as a whole and some other areas as well.

    Here's a link to it: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...1-L11-Z2103%29

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    I assume Haplogroup HV was present in Europe already during paleolithicum, but most of it probably arrived in Europe during neolithic period.
    As per link
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2013...some-data.html
    the HV and U3b are true Thracian markers and not Bulgarian as these ancient markers are from the iron-age. Bulgarians IIRC came into modern bulgaria around 800AD, thats about 1500 years difference
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Here comes the map of haplogroup HV, the mother of H and V, which appears to have originated in the Middle East. HV peaks in Mesopotamia and Iran. In Europe it reflects the establishment of some Neolithic farmers (esp. between Bulgaria and southern Belarus), which may correspond to Y-haplogroups J and T, rather than E1b1b or G2a.

    The high frequency of HV in Calabria and Sicily is more difficult to explain since it far exceeds the levels observed in Greece. They may be due to founder effects among either the Neolithic or Greek colonisers. On the other hand the percentage in Tuscany is similar to that of Turkey, the presumed homeland of the Etruscans.

    I have to double check the sources for Iceland as nothing can explain the 3.6% of HV reported.

    Do you have any data on the friulian component?. what town/s?

    I ask, because history states that a Roman Heruli legion was formed and the heruli women and children where placed in the friulian town of Concordia. according to baltic history, the heruli came from samland in modern latvia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    As per link
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2013...some-data.html
    the HV and U3b are true Thracian markers and not Bulgarian as these ancient markers are from the iron-age. Bulgarians IIRC came into modern bulgaria around 800AD, thats about 1500 years difference
    Great find;
    But the Iron-age corpses in connection with this map (mtDNA HV) also shows that modern-day Bulgarians have a notable Iron-age Thracian DNA continuity (also concerning mtDNA U3);
    Other peoples in the south Balkans do not have this ancient (Iron-age) DNA continuity of mtDNA HV/U3; which is strange especially in the case of Albanians who seem to have none of either the 2 mtDNA Hg's;

    Sicily and Calabria look a bit like Magna Graecia propably a denser concentration remained than in modern-day Greece;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Great find;
    But the Iron-age corpses in connection with this map also shows that modern-day Bulgarians have a notable Iron-age Thracian DNA continuity;
    Which other peoples in the south Balkans do not have - this ancient (Iron-age) DNA continuity;

    ;
    True, but graves are iron-age and bulgars came from north of Crimea later. we have 100% guarantee they are not bulgar.
    It also indicates that modern bulgarians have some or most ancient thracian and the high percentage in the map must be mostly thracian instead of bulgar.

    The ancient thracians must have come from eastern persia or kurds initially

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Other peoples in the south Balkans do not have this ancient (Iron-age) DNA continuity of mtDNA HV/U3; which is strange especially in the case of Albanians who seem to have none of either the 2 mtDNA Hg's;
    Albanians have more HV than everybody else in the Balkans, according to Bosch et al. About U3, I would say 1-2% maybe, which is hard to pick up in small samples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    True, but graves are iron-age and bulgars came from north of Crimea later. we have 100% guarantee they are not bulgar.
    Yes of course that goes with out saying;
    Iron-age Bulgaria = Indo-European Thracians / Thraco-Cimmerian complex
    + all available Historical documentations of the Ancient scholars;

    Modern-day Bulgarians are from the Thracians plus medieval Bulgars; Your find and this map clearly illustrate the Thracian heritage and continuity;

    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    The ancient thracians must have come from eastern persia or kurds initially
    Thracians were Indo-Europeans and therefor from the Urheimat like all other Indo-Europeans;
    And judging by the Thraco-Cimmerian complex the Thracians came via the Danube from North Black sea to the East Balkans and after the Indo-European Hittite empire collapsed - the Thracians (several tribes) crossed into Anatolia from Europe;

    Strabo - Book VII/III
    And the Phrygians themselves are Brigians, a Thracian tribe, as are also the Mygdonians, the Bebricians, the Medobithynians, the Bithynians, and the Thynians, and, I think, also the Mariandynians. These peoples, to be sure, have all utterly quitted Europe, but the Mysi have remained there.

    Kristian Kristiansen - Europe before History (1999)
    Classical sources mention between fifty and one hundred Thracian tribes.....Thracian culture was heavily influenced by the Pontic cultural koine around the Black Sea, by Macedonia, and by the neighbouring states on the coast of Asia Minor. This takes us back to the 9th and 8th centuries.....In a survey of Macedonian and Thracian bronzes Jan Bouzek (1973;1974) demonstrated the emergence of a circum-Pontic or Thraco-Cimmerian cultural koine from 800 BC. Here old Urnfield traditions in metalwork mixed with new Cimmerian influences originating in the Caucasian region,

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    Albanians have more HV than everybody else in the Balkans, according to Bosch et al. About U3, I would say 1-2% maybe, which is hard to pick up in small samples.
    I thought so;
    Thats why i said its strange 'which is strange especially in the case of Albanians'
    Not sure if its more than everyone else (especially compared to Bulgarians);

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    This study about Cro-Magnon mtDNA (Paglicci-25 & Paglicci-12) from South Italy ~23-24000 years ago;

    Caramelli et al 2003
    http://www.pnas.org/content/100/11/6593.full#aff-1

    Paglicci-25 has the following motifs: +7,025 AluI, 00073A, 11719G, and 12308A. Therefore, this sequence belongs to either haplogroups HV or pre-HV, two haplogroups rare in general but with a comparatively high frequencies among today's Near-Easterners (35). Paglicci-12 shows the motifs 00073G, 10873C, 10238T, and AACC between nucleotide positions 10397 and 10400, which allows the classification of this sequence into the macrohaplogroupN,containing haplogroups W, X, I, N1a, N1b, N1c, and N*. Following the definition given in ref. 36, the presence of a single mutation in 16,223 within HRVI suggests a classification of Paglicci-12 into the haplogroup N*, which is observed today in several samples from the Near East and, at lower frequencies, in the Caucasus (35).

    If Paglicci-25 (Cro-Magnon) is mtDNA HV than forget about Magna Graecia and the Greeks; Cro-Magnons at least 22,000 years earlier;

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    Quote Originally Posted by elghund View Post
    If V was born of HV and it was born in Iberia, how could HV be restricted to Neolithic or later migrations to Europe?
    It isn't certain that V was born in Iberia. Pre-V (aka HV0) is found mostly in Northwest Africa, so I would rather assume that V first appeared there then moved to Iberia toward the end of the last Ice Age. A founder effect in the colonisers would explain why Europeans are mostly V, while Northwest Africans are both pre-V and V.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Do you have any data on the friulian component?. what town/s?

    I ask, because history states that a Roman Heruli legion was formed and the heruli women and children where placed in the friulian town of Concordia. according to baltic history, the heruli came from samland in modern latvia
    The data is for Udine (Brisighelli et al. 2012).

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    Interesting map, i have the haplogroup HV1a1 and i don't know it was either brought by Neolithic farmers or was already present during paleolithicum in Europe. Do you know anything about the subclade Maciamo?

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    Dienekes once discussed an abstract which stated that autosomal analysis of an Iron Age Bulgarian (whom he referred to as a Thracian) showed that he was very "Oetzi" or Sardinian like...here is the Dienekes thread:
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09...re-online.html

    This is where the abstract can be found:
    http://www.ashg.org/2012meeting/abst...f120123058.htm

    And this is the intriguing quote:
    "Strikingly, an analysis including novel ancient DNA data from an early Iron Age individual from Bulgaria also shows the strongest affinity of this individual with modern-day Sardinians. Our results show that the Tyrolean Iceman was not a recent migrant from Sardinia, but rather that among contemporary Europeans, Sardinians represent the population most closely related to populations present in the Southern Alpine region around 5000 years ago. The genetic affinity of ancient DNA samples from distant parts of Europe with Sardinians also suggests that this genetic signature was much more widespread across Europe during the Bronze Age."

    Does anyone know if the paper has appeared anywhere? That doesn't sound like someone from the Steppes to me, unless the people from the Steppes are pretty different from many conceptions of them. Or is it possible that individual pockets of older inhabitants survived?

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    Ed. Sorry, double post.

    Another thought with regard to these results for the Iron Age Bulgarian... if indeed we ever get to see it in a paper...cultural influences don't always have to indicate migration and admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    This study about Cro-Magnon mtDNA (Paglicci-25 & Paglicci-12) from South Italy ~23-24000 years ago;

    Caramelli et al 2003
    http://www.pnas.org/content/100/11/6593.full#aff-1

    Paglicci-25 has the following motifs: +7,025 AluI, 00073A, 11719G, and 12308A. Therefore, this sequence belongs to either haplogroups HV or pre-HV, two haplogroups rare in general but with a comparatively high frequencies among today's Near-Easterners (35). Paglicci-12 shows the motifs 00073G, 10873C, 10238T, and AACC between nucleotide positions 10397 and 10400, which allows the classification of this sequence into the macrohaplogroupN,containing haplogroups W, X, I, N1a, N1b, N1c, and N*. Following the definition given in ref. 36, the presence of a single mutation in 16,223 within HRVI suggests a classification of Paglicci-12 into the haplogroup N*, which is observed today in several samples from the Near East and, at lower frequencies, in the Caucasus (35).

    If Paglicci-25 (Cro-Magnon) is mtDNA HV than forget about Magna Graecia and the Greeks; Cro-Magnons at least 22,000 years earlier;
    It could be all three? In other words, depending on the specific clade, 22,000 years old, Neolithic or Magna Graecia.

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    Weren't the thracians related to Dacians; a Balkanic people? I would have suspected the Thracian element of being I2a, Bulgars seem like the J2 or E3b group.

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