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Thread: Automosal DNA test conflicting one another?

  1. #26
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Well i was more talking about your autosomal results, but your lineages are pretty uncommon. If the R1a is the Scandinavian type it makes more sense, but if it's the Slavic type, that is pretty rare and interesting too. W is an odd one, i don't know much about it. R1a does peak fairly significantly in some areas of Britain, like Orkney, Shetland, parts of Scotland and parts of NW England, although in most places it's 1-5% (POBI found about 5% i think), although in Kent that is pretty unusual, probably an interesting story to it.

    @ElHorsto, as far as i know much of the movement to Britain from Germany was prior to or contemporary with Slavic expansions in the area? Plus a lot of it was coastal, and R1a seems to be lower in coastal areas (and R1b-U106/L48 higher). So i'd have thought that the 6-12% from the Netherlands to Denmark would be more like actuality for most of those places at that time, and fits in with the other Y-DNA.
    'Wise men speak only of what they know' - J.R.R. Tolkien

  2. #27
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackson View Post
    @ElHorsto, as far as i know much of the movement to Britain from Germany was prior to or contemporary with Slavic expansions in the area?
    In short: yes.

    The history of the peoples east of river Elbe is somewhat fuzzy. Zanipolo once showed here in this forum interesting maps of several R1a clades which neither matched slavic nor german settlement. He suggested these are the traces of the vandals, goths and bastarnae. It could be that east germanics were part of the slavic ethnogenesis. This could be a possibility to explain certain "slavic" ancestry, if necessary.

    Plus a lot of it was coastal, and R1a seems to be lower in coastal areas (and R1b-U106/L48 higher). So i'd have thought that the 6-12% from the Netherlands to Denmark would be more like actuality for most of those places at that time, and fits in with the other Y-DNA.
    Less R1a at coastal places? I don't know. You are right about Netherlands and Denmark, but north Germany is listed among the R1a rich regions similar to Norway. If I remember correctly the town of Rostock which is a coastal town is even a R1a hotspot with > 33% R1a. Münster in Westfalia (not coastal, but much more west and no slavic settlement recorded) also had surprisingly high R1a percentage (don't remember exactly but it was about the same percentage I think). I wonder whether Netherland's lower R1a rate is merely due to the Franks who came from the south.

  3. #28
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Just got my MtDNA

    Confirmed W.

    mtDNA - Results


    Haplogroup - W

    Your Origin


    Haplogroup W is derived from the N superhaplogroup, which dates to approximately 65,000 years ago. The origin of haplogroup W dates to approximately 25,000 years ago, and it is mainly found distributed in west Eurasia (or Europe). It is likely that individuals bearing this lineage participated in the expansion into the bulk of Europe following the Last Glacial Maximum. Future work, including obtaining more samples from central Asia, will further refine the historical distribution of this haplogroup and better determine the role it played in the peopling of Europe.
    For us to identify a specific subclade of W and its ancient migration history, you will need to upgrade to the mtDNA Full Sequence test.



    Now, I await YDNA results. This is very interesting...

    Once I have received my YDNA, I'll consider upgrading for SNP testing and finding my subclades.

  4. #29
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    In short: yes.

    The history of the peoples east of river Elbe is somewhat fuzzy. Zanipolo once showed here in this forum interesting maps of several R1a clades which neither matched slavic nor german settlement. He suggested these are the traces of the vandals, goths and bastarnae. It could be that east germanics were part of the slavic ethnogenesis. This could be a possibility to explain certain "slavic" ancestry, if necessary.



    Less R1a at coastal places? I don't know. You are right about Netherlands and Denmark, but north Germany is listed among the R1a rich regions similar to Norway. If I remember correctly the town of Rostock which is a coastal town is even a R1a hotspot with > 33% R1a. Münster in Westfalia (not coastal, but much more west and no slavic settlement recorded) also had surprisingly high R1a percentage (don't remember exactly but it was about the same percentage I think). I wonder whether Netherland's lower R1a rate is merely due to the Franks who came from the south.
    Well POBI did identify quite a large component that looks possibly Slavic in East Germany, although it has a significant presence in many other areas but not in the Netherlands, Denmark or north,north-west Germany. I remember in a study about the Flemish, R1a was quite common in inland areas but dropped very low (1% in one area i think) along the coast, while R1b-U106/L48 and I1 were much higher along the coastline. So it may be that you see it in one place and not in another as it perhaps follows to some extent the old division between more inland Germanic areas and the North Sea Coastline, seeing as Rostock is in the western Baltic and directly south of Sweden a high R1a result is pretty expected, and in areas of central Germany is it is also perhaps not so surprising given that this study has shown that in Flemish areas R1a drops off somewhat significantly compared to the southern parts of the North Sea where R1b increases.

    I think there was a post about it on this forum somewhere.
    http://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S...101-4/abstract

    This kind of fits in with the lower frequencies of R1a from the Netherlands to Denmark (6-12%), given that they are coastal north sea locations - even though it is just about Flanders, lower frequencies of R1a are seen in areas along the coast from Belgium to Denmark (although not in the Baltic). Just kinda makes sense to me that different areas within a cultural group have different genetic makeup, at least in Y-dna. Given that it's unlikely that there is a drastic change from 20-30% R1a to less than 10% along the Dutch border, it would seem more likely that it gradually decreases as one goes towards the coast, and R1b-U106 increases, which fits in with Flanders.



    Frequencies of R1b-L48 in Flanders are as follows:
    -17% in West Flanders
    -12% in East Flanders
    -11% in Belgian Brabant
    -8% in Limburg


    -I1 and I1c are 10-16% combined (strongest in the West and weakest in the East).
    -R1a is low in most areas at (3-4%), however it is higher in the east (8%), and is very low in the north (1.5%) and on the coast (0.9%).
    -R1a would have seemed to have come from the east and not the north or the coast.
    -I1 is clearly coastal.
    -U106 is much stronger in the north and the west and much more frequent than I1+R1a.
    -Much of the Low Countries and neck of Jutland were U106 focused.
    -In the typically Germanic trio of R1b-U106, I1 and R1a, U106 seems southern and I1 more coastal.
    -One is led to beleive, with this data in addition to other data about U106 and it's neighbours that U106 has been closely associated with Germanic speakers for a long time.
    -R1b-L48 is a clearly a coastal grouping of R1b-U106, at least in Flanders.
    .

  5. #30
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackson View Post
    Well POBI did identify quite a large component that looks possibly Slavic in East Germany, although it has a significant presence in many other areas but not in the Netherlands, Denmark or north,north-west Germany. I remember in a study about the Flemish, R1a was quite common in inland areas but dropped very low (1% in one area i think) along the coast, while R1b-U106/L48 and I1 were much higher along the coastline. So it may be that you see it in one place and not in another as it perhaps follows to some extent the old division between more inland Germanic areas and the North Sea Coastline, seeing as Rostock is in the western Baltic and directly south of Sweden a high R1a result is pretty expected, and in areas of central Germany is it is also perhaps not so surprising given that this study has shown that in Flemish areas R1a drops off somewhat significantly compared to the southern parts of the North Sea where R1b increases.

    I think there was a post about it on this forum somewhere.
    http://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S...101-4/abstract

    This kind of fits in with the lower frequencies of R1a from the Netherlands to Denmark (6-12%), given that they are coastal north sea locations - even though it is just about Flanders, lower frequencies of R1a are seen in areas along the coast from Belgium to Denmark (although not in the Baltic). Just kinda makes sense to me that different areas within a cultural group have different genetic makeup, at least in Y-dna. Given that it's unlikely that there is a drastic change from 20-30% R1a to less than 10% along the Dutch border, it would seem more likely that it gradually decreases as one goes towards the coast, and R1b-U106 increases, which fits in with Flanders.
    Thanks, this is interesting. I didn't know these details about the very North-sea coast and R1b/R1a. I wonder, given that R1a is more present at the baltic coast, perhaps R1a also once was more common along the north-sea coast. On the other hand, there was the North-West-Group, which is belived to have been a Germanic-Celtic mixture. Maybe this could also explain the higher R1b in north-west Germany, Netherlands and England, although not particularly at the coast.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by English Lad View Post
    This is still very interesting, I eagerly await my YDNA results from FTDNA. Although I assume it'll need upgrading from 12 markers to minimum 37. If R1a in Britain is assigned to predominantly Viking/ ( Germanic? ) settlement, it'll probably be Norman or Jutes, I guess.
    In most cases 12 markers are not enough to securely determine your R1a clade. Only in case if you have value 10 in marker DYS388 you can be sure that you belong to R1a-L664 clade. Taking into account that a large variety of R1a caldes (R1a-Z284, R1a-L664, R1a-Z280*, R1a-CTS1211, R1a-CTS3402, R1a-Z92, R1a-M458, R1a-Z93*, R1a-Z282*, R1a-Z2122 ect) have been found in UK your ancestry can be pretty much enigmatic and unpredictable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloomyGonzales View Post
    In most cases 12 markers are not enough to securely determine your R1a clade. Only in case if you have value 10 in marker DYS388 you can be sure that you belong to R1a-L664 clade. Taking into account that a large variety of R1a caldes (R1a-Z284, R1a-L664, R1a-Z280*, R1a-CTS1211, R1a-CTS3402, R1a-Z92, R1a-M458, R1a-Z93*, R1a-Z282*, R1a-Z2122 ect) have been found in UK your ancestry can be pretty much enigmatic and unpredictable.

    How do those DYS markers work? They're the one thing that confuses me most. I'll definitely upgrade then, since it is my clade that I wish to know ever since receiving results from 23andme. Is the L664 clade the North West European one?

    cheers

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by English Lad View Post
    How do those DYS markers work? They're the one thing that confuses me most. I'll definitely upgrade then, since it is my clade that I wish to know ever since receiving results from 23andme. Is the L664 clade the North West European one?

    cheers
    Yes, R1a-L664 is found mostly in North Western Europe.
    Here's the map for known R1a-L664
    https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=e...2&source=embed

  9. #34
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    Thank you!

    It's strange how none is found in Iceland though, yet R1a is in Iceland, Is that the other clade Norse L448? Sorry, you can really tell I'm a novice with this stuff... :/

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    You can't get a precise subclade information from ftdna with 12 markers??? What do they tell you just your main haplogroup?

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    You can't get a precise subclade information from ftdna with 12 markers??? What do they tell you just your main haplogroup?
    With 12 markers it'll just be the Haplogroup, but I think there's a small chance that when small amounts of a certain Haplogroup is found in a population, If I match markers with other Englishmen who have tested and are R1a1a, they may be able to assign your shorthand too, if those Englishmen have tested higher markers themselves. Being R1a1a in England, South East England specifically, where such small amounts exist, it's possibly/highly likely I might share a common ancestor with other R1a1a's in South-East England. If any of those individuals tested higher, and have their shorthand, you never know I may be able to be assigned that shorthand too.

    I think that's how it works but If not, then I will need to test a higher number of markers. Which I will gladly do.

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    Well, just got my YDNA results. R1a-M198.


    MY STR results.
    PANEL 1 (1-12)

    Marker DYS393 DYS390 DYS19** DYS391 DYS385 DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389I DYS392 DYS389II***
    Value 13 25 15 11 11-14 12 12 10 12 11 29



    So no L664 with DYS388 = 12.

    Any thoughts? I guess further SNP testing will have to be done.

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    I have put your results in haplogroup predictor
    N Haplogroup Probability
    1 R1a1a1*-Vikings-M417*(xM458,L365) 65%
    I suppose that Viking clade is Z284 but I am not sure.

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    I emailed Larry, one of the administrators of the R1a and Sublacdes Project over at FTDNA.

    His reply was,

    Your 12-marker pattern is common to several different branches of the R1a1a haplogroup. You can see this merely by scanning the surnames of your 27 exact matches, or you can take a look at the categorized list below of your exact matches within our project.

    Based partly on ancestral geography, your patrilineage is probably Z284+ , and perhaps more specifically L448+ . In the British Isles, this branch is usually attributed to Scandinavian incursion (i.e., Vikings).

    However, the list below shows that your 12 markers certainly provide room for other, more “exotic” hypotheses. Thus, I strongly recommend that you upgrade to at least 37 markers. You may wish to wait a couple of weeks, because FTDNA traditionally discounts its upgrades during the holiday season. So for example, Y-Refine12to37 is ordinarily $99, but typically drops to $69 during the sale. If you can upgrade all the way to 67 markers at the sale price (ordinarily $189, but $149 during the sale), so much the better.


    So with that, I'll await the sales to upgrade to the 67 marker at a cheaper price and then hopefully we get some answers!


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Ah forget it. I'm impatient, never was a good fisherman anyway. Just ordered an upgraded - Y refine 12 to 67.

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    Quote Originally Posted by English Lad View Post
    Ah forget it. I'm impatient, never was a good fisherman anyway. Just ordered an upgraded - Y refine 12 to 67.
    Good! I've got interested, too, who will you really turn out to be after all :)

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    general answer, not too focused (excuse me) on the present thread, but caused by a lot of approximations red here
    I doubt Slavs occuped Saxon lands before last High Middle Ages (I can mistake)
    THE MORE IMPORTANT HERE: read the threads about Y-R1a in this forum: a lot of interesting precisions had already been said - yet a look at Wikipedia would not be bad -
    good readings

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    R1a.jpg Current R1a tree

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    Thanks Kardu,

    We'll know my Subclade come the end of December. ( Hopefully ).

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    I finally got a chance to have a go at Gedmatch Admix analysis, etc. It's been having problems recently, but here are results from the EU and Jtest.

    f
    EUtest Oracle results:

    EUtest Oracle population reference data revised 06 Nov 2012.


    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 34.02
    2 ATLANTIC 24.19
    3 SOUTH_BALTIC 12.18
    4 WEST_MED 10.34
    5 EAST_EURO 10
    6 WEST_ASIAN 6.77
    7 MIDDLE_EASTERN 1.12
    8 EAST_MED 0.79
    9 SOUTH_ASIAN 0.38
    10 SIBERIAN 0.21

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 English 6.23
    2 DK 6.85
    3 NL 7.21
    4 NO 7.47
    5 Orcadian 8.07
    6 West_&_Central_German 8.16
    7 South_&_Central_Swedish 8.26
    8 IE 8.51
    9 Cornish 9.05
    10 Scottish 9.71
    11 North_Swedish 12.64
    12 FR 14.96
    13 AT 15.72
    14 HU 20.52
    15 South_Finnish 21.63
    16 PT 21.71
    17 Serbian 22.49
    18 ES 22.55
    19 PL 24.74
    20 North_Italian 25.23

  21. #46
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    Jtest Oracle results:

    Jtest Oracle population reference data revised 06 Nov 2012.


    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 33.83
    2 ATLANTIC 23.77
    3 SOUTH_BALTIC 12.15
    4 WEST_MED 9.96
    5 EAST_EURO 9.81
    6 WEST_ASIAN 6.33
    7 ASHKENAZI 3.08
    8 MIDDLE_EASTERN 0.51
    9 SOUTH_ASIAN 0.32
    10 SIBERIAN 0.17
    11 EAST_MED 0.07

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 English 5.95
    2 DK 6.8
    3 NL 7.06
    4 NO 7.54
    5 Orcadian 8.03
    6 West_&_Central_German 8.04
    7 South_&_Central_Swedish 8.32
    8 IE 8.57
    9 Cornish 8.93
    10 Scottish 9.67
    11 North_Swedish 12.43
    12 FR 14.78
    13 AT 15.64
    14 HU 20.42
    15 PT 21.41
    16 South_Finnish 21.5
    17 ES 22.21
    18 Serbian 22.28
    19 PL 24.68
    20 North_Italian 24.95

  22. #47
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    And K36 Eurogenes,



    Population
    Amerindian -
    Arabian -
    Armenian -
    Basque 0.78%
    Central_African -
    Central_Euro 8.34%
    East_African -
    East_Asian -
    East_Balkan 4.85%
    East_Central_Asian -
    East_Central_Euro 5.45%
    East_Med -
    Eastern_Euro 2.53%
    Fennoscandian 13.01%
    French 7.42%
    Iberian 13.36%
    Indo-Chinese -
    Italian 5.41%
    Malayan -
    Near_Eastern -
    North_African -
    North_Atlantic 13.61%
    North_Caucasian 1.42%
    North_Sea 22.62%
    Northeast_African -
    Oceanian -
    Omotic -
    Pygmy -
    Siberian -
    South_Asian -
    South_Central_Asian -
    South_Chinese -
    Volga-Ural -
    West_African -
    West_Caucasian 1.20%
    West_Med -

  23. #48
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    Country: Finland



    That Fennoscandian points to Vikings, it could have been close or over 20% on arrival.

  24. #49
    Regular Member Achievements:
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a - Z284*?
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W1g

    Ethnic group
    English
    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Idun View Post
    That Fennoscandian points to Vikings, it could have been close or over 20% on arrival.
    I figured it'd be Vikings, perhaps that's the percentage my Y- DNA may come from ( R1a ). We'll see in time.

    What would the North-Central Euro point too? I know Central Europe would be Germany, Poland, Czech Republic and Austria and other surrounding nations, but would the north be North Germany, North Poland or both?

  25. #50
    Banned Achievements:
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    Join Date
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    Country: Finland



    Funny how "Finnish" MtDNA the English here have.

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