Automosal DNA test conflicting one another?

If your R1a is a slavic one, then it also could come from the Saxons, because slavs (Obotrites, Polabians) were part of their ancestral land in north Germany.
In general, northern Germany has ~30% R1a, hence I find it odd that actually so few englishman are R1a. Scandinavia has as much R1a which is apparently of non-slavic origin, so it is as twice as odd.

Also the R1a presence in Scandinavia and Lappland is a hint towards a possible european paleolithic or mesolithic origin of some R1a.
 
If your R1a is a slavic one, then it also could come from the Saxons, because slavs (Obotrites, Polabians) were part of their ancestral land in north Germany.
In general, northern Germany has ~30% R1a, hence I find it odd that actually so few englishman are R1a. Scandinavia has as much R1a which is apparently of non-slavic origin, so it is as twice as odd.

Doubtful;
That would imply that the Saxons had subjugated certain/several Polabian Slavs in order to have been a part of the migration and invasion of Britannia; But the subjugation of the Polabian Slavs occurred during the 12th cen AD and Britannia was already invaded and conquered by the Saxons by the mid 5th cen AD;

Gallic Chronicle - AD 441 / Chronicle of 452
HONORIUS XVI (410) -
Britanniae Saxonum incursione devastatae
The British provinces were devastated by an incursion of the Saxons
THEODOSIUS II XVIII/XVIIII (441) -
Britanniae, usque ad hoc tempus variis cladibus eventibusque latae in dicionem Saxon rediguntur
The British provinces, which to this time had suffered various defeats and misfortunes, are reduced to Saxon rule

The Saxons raided the channel as early as the 3rd cen AD and prob. also the coast of Britannia - hence the fortifications of the Saxon Shore - litus saxonicum in SE England;

Eutropius - Book IX
XXI During this period, Carausius, who, though of very mean birth, had gained extraordinary reputation by a course of active service in war, having received a commission in his post at Bononia, to clear the sea, which the Franks and Saxons infested, along the coast of Belgica and Armorica
 
This is still very interesting, I eagerly await my YDNA results from FTDNA. Although I assume it'll need upgrading from 12 markers to minimum 37. If R1a in Britain is assigned to predominantly Viking/ ( Germanic? ) settlement, it'll probably be Norman or Jutes, I guess.
 
Doubtful;
That would imply that the Saxons had subjugated certain/several Polabian Slavs in order to have been a part of the migration and invasion of Britannia; But the subjugation of the Polabian Slavs occurred during the 12th cen AD and Britannia was already invaded and conquered by the Saxons by the mid 5th cen AD;

Gallic Chronicle - AD 441 / Chronicle of 452
HONORIUS XVI (410) -
Britanniae Saxonum incursione devastatae
The British provinces were devastated by an incursion of the Saxons
THEODOSIUS II XVIII/XVIIII (441) -
Britanniae, usque ad hoc tempus variis cladibus eventibusque latae in dicionem Saxon rediguntur
The British provinces, which to this time had suffered various defeats and misfortunes, are reduced to Saxon rule

The Saxons raided the channel as early as the 3rd cen AD and prob. also the coast of Britannia - hence the fortifications of the Saxon Shore - litus saxonicum in SE England;

Eutropius - Book IX
XXI During this period, Carausius, who, though of very mean birth, had gained extraordinary reputation by a course of active service in war, having received a commission in his post at Bononia, to clear the sea, which the Franks and Saxons infested, along the coast of Belgica and Armorica

Of course you are right. But as a matter of small possibilities I recalled passages from an old book

Shore ,Origin of the Anglo-Saxon race, London 1906


page 86:

"The statement of Bede that the Rugini or Rugians were among the nations from whom the English were known to have descended was contemporary evidence of his own time."
...

page 87:

"The probability of some very early settlers in Britain having been Wends, and consequently that there was a Slavic element in the origin of the Old English race, is shown in another way...."

Fulltext:
http://archive.org/stream/originofanglosax00shoruoft/originofanglosax00shoruoft_djvu.txt

Granted, weak evidence.
 
Of course you are right. But as a matter of small possibilities I recalled passages from an old book

Shore ,Origin of the Anglo-Saxon race, London 1906


page 86:
"The statement of Bede that the Rugini or Rugians were among the nations from whom the English were known to have descended was contemporary evidence of his own time."
...
page 87:

"The probability of some very early settlers in Britain having been Wends, and consequently that there was a Slavic element in the origin of the Old English race, is shown in another way...."

Fulltext:
http://archive.org/stream/originofanglosax00shoruoft/originofanglosax00shoruoft_djvu.txt

Granted, weak evidence.

Might not be that weak after all;
Although the book equates the Rugii with the Ranen; The Rugini of Bede were still essentially the Germanic Rugier; The Ranen (part of the Wilzen) were the ones that were Polabian Slav peoples - one of the reasons i think the Polabian Slavs had a strong East Germanic element next to Warnen and Winuler;

Bede - Book V/IX
Quarum in Germania plurimas noverat esse nationes, a quibus Angli vel Saxones, qui nunc Britanniam incolunt, genus et originem duxisse noscuntur. Unde hactenus a vicina gente Britonum corrupti Germani nuncupantur. Sunt autem Fresones, Rugini, Dani, Hunni, antiqui Saxones, Boructuarii.
---
many of which nations he knew there were in Germania, from whom the Angles or Saxons, who now inhabit Britain, are known to have derived their origin; for which reason they are still corruptly called Garmani by the neighboring nation of the Britons. Such are the Frisians, the Rugini, the Danes, the Huns, the old Saxons, and the Boructuari(Bricteri:Franks or Saxons)

It all depends of which R1a lineages exist in Britain today;
Maybe Polabian Slavs (Wenden) were a part of the Anglo-Saxon realm but i would doubt those to be the Rugini (Rugier) of Bede;
 
Well i was more talking about your autosomal results, but your lineages are pretty uncommon. If the R1a is the Scandinavian type it makes more sense, but if it's the Slavic type, that is pretty rare and interesting too. W is an odd one, i don't know much about it. R1a does peak fairly significantly in some areas of Britain, like Orkney, Shetland, parts of Scotland and parts of NW England, although in most places it's 1-5% (POBI found about 5% i think), although in Kent that is pretty unusual, probably an interesting story to it.

@ElHorsto, as far as i know much of the movement to Britain from Germany was prior to or contemporary with Slavic expansions in the area? Plus a lot of it was coastal, and R1a seems to be lower in coastal areas (and R1b-U106/L48 higher). So i'd have thought that the 6-12% from the Netherlands to Denmark would be more like actuality for most of those places at that time, and fits in with the other Y-DNA.
 
@ElHorsto, as far as i know much of the movement to Britain from Germany was prior to or contemporary with Slavic expansions in the area?

In short: yes.

The history of the peoples east of river Elbe is somewhat fuzzy. Zanipolo once showed here in this forum interesting maps of several R1a clades which neither matched slavic nor german settlement. He suggested these are the traces of the vandals, goths and bastarnae. It could be that east germanics were part of the slavic ethnogenesis. This could be a possibility to explain certain "slavic" ancestry, if necessary.

Plus a lot of it was coastal, and R1a seems to be lower in coastal areas (and R1b-U106/L48 higher). So i'd have thought that the 6-12% from the Netherlands to Denmark would be more like actuality for most of those places at that time, and fits in with the other Y-DNA.

Less R1a at coastal places? I don't know. You are right about Netherlands and Denmark, but north Germany is listed among the R1a rich regions similar to Norway. If I remember correctly the town of Rostock which is a coastal town is even a R1a hotspot with > 33% R1a. Münster in Westfalia (not coastal, but much more west and no slavic settlement recorded) also had surprisingly high R1a percentage (don't remember exactly but it was about the same percentage I think). I wonder whether Netherland's lower R1a rate is merely due to the Franks who came from the south.
 
Just got my MtDNA

Confirmed W.

mtDNA - Results


Haplogroup - W

Your Origin


Haplogroup W is derived from the N superhaplogroup, which dates to approximately 65,000 years ago. The origin of haplogroup W dates to approximately 25,000 years ago, and it is mainly found distributed in west Eurasia (or Europe). It is likely that individuals bearing this lineage participated in the expansion into the bulk of Europe following the Last Glacial Maximum. Future work, including obtaining more samples from central Asia, will further refine the historical distribution of this haplogroup and better determine the role it played in the peopling of Europe.
For us to identify a specific subclade of W and its ancient migration history, you will need to upgrade to the mtDNA Full Sequence test.



Now, I await YDNA results. This is very interesting...

Once I have received my YDNA, I'll consider upgrading for SNP testing and finding my subclades.
 
In short: yes.

The history of the peoples east of river Elbe is somewhat fuzzy. Zanipolo once showed here in this forum interesting maps of several R1a clades which neither matched slavic nor german settlement. He suggested these are the traces of the vandals, goths and bastarnae. It could be that east germanics were part of the slavic ethnogenesis. This could be a possibility to explain certain "slavic" ancestry, if necessary.



Less R1a at coastal places? I don't know. You are right about Netherlands and Denmark, but north Germany is listed among the R1a rich regions similar to Norway. If I remember correctly the town of Rostock which is a coastal town is even a R1a hotspot with > 33% R1a. Münster in Westfalia (not coastal, but much more west and no slavic settlement recorded) also had surprisingly high R1a percentage (don't remember exactly but it was about the same percentage I think). I wonder whether Netherland's lower R1a rate is merely due to the Franks who came from the south.

Well POBI did identify quite a large component that looks possibly Slavic in East Germany, although it has a significant presence in many other areas but not in the Netherlands, Denmark or north,north-west Germany. I remember in a study about the Flemish, R1a was quite common in inland areas but dropped very low (1% in one area i think) along the coast, while R1b-U106/L48 and I1 were much higher along the coastline. So it may be that you see it in one place and not in another as it perhaps follows to some extent the old division between more inland Germanic areas and the North Sea Coastline, seeing as Rostock is in the western Baltic and directly south of Sweden a high R1a result is pretty expected, and in areas of central Germany is it is also perhaps not so surprising given that this study has shown that in Flemish areas R1a drops off somewhat significantly compared to the southern parts of the North Sea where R1b increases.

I think there was a post about it on this forum somewhere.
http://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S1872-4973(13)00101-4/abstract

This kind of fits in with the lower frequencies of R1a from the Netherlands to Denmark (6-12%), given that they are coastal north sea locations - even though it is just about Flanders, lower frequencies of R1a are seen in areas along the coast from Belgium to Denmark (although not in the Baltic). Just kinda makes sense to me that different areas within a cultural group have different genetic makeup, at least in Y-dna. Given that it's unlikely that there is a drastic change from 20-30% R1a to less than 10% along the Dutch border, it would seem more likely that it gradually decreases as one goes towards the coast, and R1b-U106 increases, which fits in with Flanders.



Frequencies of R1b-L48 in Flanders are as follows:
-17% in West Flanders
-12% in East Flanders
-11% in Belgian Brabant
-8% in Limburg


-I1 and I1c are 10-16% combined (strongest in the West and weakest in the East).
-R1a is low in most areas at (3-4%), however it is higher in the east (8%), and is very low in the north (1.5%) and on the coast (0.9%).
-R1a would have seemed to have come from the east and not the north or the coast.
-I1 is clearly coastal.
-U106 is much stronger in the north and the west and much more frequent than I1+R1a.
-Much of the Low Countries and neck of Jutland were U106 focused.
-In the typically Germanic trio of R1b-U106, I1 and R1a, U106 seems southern and I1 more coastal.
-One is led to beleive, with this data in addition to other data about U106 and it's neighbours that U106 has been closely associated with Germanic speakers for a long time.
-R1b-L48 is a clearly a coastal grouping of R1b-U106, at least in Flanders.
.
 
Well POBI did identify quite a large component that looks possibly Slavic in East Germany, although it has a significant presence in many other areas but not in the Netherlands, Denmark or north,north-west Germany. I remember in a study about the Flemish, R1a was quite common in inland areas but dropped very low (1% in one area i think) along the coast, while R1b-U106/L48 and I1 were much higher along the coastline. So it may be that you see it in one place and not in another as it perhaps follows to some extent the old division between more inland Germanic areas and the North Sea Coastline, seeing as Rostock is in the western Baltic and directly south of Sweden a high R1a result is pretty expected, and in areas of central Germany is it is also perhaps not so surprising given that this study has shown that in Flemish areas R1a drops off somewhat significantly compared to the southern parts of the North Sea where R1b increases.

I think there was a post about it on this forum somewhere.
http://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S1872-4973(13)00101-4/abstract

This kind of fits in with the lower frequencies of R1a from the Netherlands to Denmark (6-12%), given that they are coastal north sea locations - even though it is just about Flanders, lower frequencies of R1a are seen in areas along the coast from Belgium to Denmark (although not in the Baltic). Just kinda makes sense to me that different areas within a cultural group have different genetic makeup, at least in Y-dna. Given that it's unlikely that there is a drastic change from 20-30% R1a to less than 10% along the Dutch border, it would seem more likely that it gradually decreases as one goes towards the coast, and R1b-U106 increases, which fits in with Flanders.

Thanks, this is interesting. I didn't know these details about the very North-sea coast and R1b/R1a. I wonder, given that R1a is more present at the baltic coast, perhaps R1a also once was more common along the north-sea coast. On the other hand, there was the North-West-Group, which is belived to have been a Germanic-Celtic mixture. Maybe this could also explain the higher R1b in north-west Germany, Netherlands and England, although not particularly at the coast.
 
This is still very interesting, I eagerly await my YDNA results from FTDNA. Although I assume it'll need upgrading from 12 markers to minimum 37. If R1a in Britain is assigned to predominantly Viking/ ( Germanic? ) settlement, it'll probably be Norman or Jutes, I guess.

In most cases 12 markers are not enough to securely determine your R1a clade. Only in case if you have value 10 in marker DYS388 you can be sure that you belong to R1a-L664 clade. Taking into account that a large variety of R1a caldes (R1a-Z284, R1a-L664, R1a-Z280*, R1a-CTS1211, R1a-CTS3402, R1a-Z92, R1a-M458, R1a-Z93*, R1a-Z282*, R1a-Z2122 ect) have been found in UK your ancestry can be pretty much enigmatic and unpredictable.
 
In most cases 12 markers are not enough to securely determine your R1a clade. Only in case if you have value 10 in marker DYS388 you can be sure that you belong to R1a-L664 clade. Taking into account that a large variety of R1a caldes (R1a-Z284, R1a-L664, R1a-Z280*, R1a-CTS1211, R1a-CTS3402, R1a-Z92, R1a-M458, R1a-Z93*, R1a-Z282*, R1a-Z2122 ect) have been found in UK your ancestry can be pretty much enigmatic and unpredictable.


How do those DYS markers work? They're the one thing that confuses me most. I'll definitely upgrade then, since it is my clade that I wish to know ever since receiving results from 23andme. Is the L664 clade the North West European one?

cheers
 
Thank you!

It's strange how none is found in Iceland though, yet R1a is in Iceland, Is that the other clade Norse L448? Sorry, you can really tell I'm a novice with this stuff... :/
 
You can't get a precise subclade information from ftdna with 12 markers??? What do they tell you just your main haplogroup?
 
You can't get a precise subclade information from ftdna with 12 markers??? What do they tell you just your main haplogroup?

With 12 markers it'll just be the Haplogroup, but I think there's a small chance that when small amounts of a certain Haplogroup is found in a population, If I match markers with other Englishmen who have tested and are R1a1a, they may be able to assign your shorthand too, if those Englishmen have tested higher markers themselves. Being R1a1a in England, South East England specifically, where such small amounts exist, it's possibly/highly likely I might share a common ancestor with other R1a1a's in South-East England. If any of those individuals tested higher, and have their shorthand, you never know I may be able to be assigned that shorthand too.

I think that's how it works but If not, then I will need to test a higher number of markers. Which I will gladly do.
 
Well, just got my YDNA results. R1a-M198.


MY STR results.
[h=5]PANEL 1 (1-12)[/h]
MarkerDYS393DYS390DYS19**DYS391DYS385DYS426DYS388DYS439DYS389IDYS392DYS389II***
Value1325151111-14121210121129



So no L664 with DYS388 = 12.

Any thoughts? I guess further SNP testing will have to be done.
 
I have put your results in haplogroup predictor
N Haplogroup Probability
1 R1a1a1*-Vikings-M417*(xM458,L365) 65%
I suppose that Viking clade is Z284 but I am not sure.
 
I emailed Larry, one of the administrators of the R1a and Sublacdes Project over at FTDNA.

His reply was,

Your 12-marker pattern is common to several different branches of the R1a1a haplogroup. You can see this merely by scanning the surnames of your 27 exact matches, or you can take a look at the categorized list below of your exact matches within our project.

Based partly on ancestral geography, your patrilineage is probably Z284+ , and perhaps more specifically L448+ . In the British Isles, this branch is usually attributed to Scandinavian incursion (i.e., Vikings).

However, the list below shows that your 12 markers certainly provide room for other, more “exotic” hypotheses. Thus, I strongly recommend that you upgrade to at least 37 markers. You may wish to wait a couple of weeks, because FTDNA traditionally discounts its upgrades during the holiday season. So for example, Y-Refine12to37 is ordinarily $99, but typically drops to $69 during the sale. If you can upgrade all the way to 67 markers at the sale price (ordinarily $189, but $149 during the sale), so much the better.


So with that, I'll await the sales to upgrade to the 67 marker at a cheaper price and then hopefully we get some answers!

 
Ah forget it. I'm impatient, never was a good fisherman anyway. Just ordered an upgraded - Y refine 12 to 67.
 

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