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But I want to know where mtDNA L3 is from originally; not where it spread... I don't think it was found in ancient times in Italy, unless Etruscans carried it (but Etruscans were actually from Anatolia)Originally Posted by Drac II
I tried many calculators but the results are very different...
For Eurogenes K36 I'm also more Iberian than Italian which actually sounds kinda weird
How "strange" that you are again cherry-picking and leaving out other studies that don't say what you want to hear. But don't worry, I am here to remind you of them every time I catch you manipulating things to promote your obvious agenda:
Spain -
Rhouda et al. 2006: (Central & Northeastern Spain) [686 samples] = 0%
(Andalusia) [158 samples] = 1.9%
Garcia et al. 2011: (Basque region) [462 samples] = 0%
Lopez-Parra et al. 2009 (Pyrenaic regions) [233 samples] = 0%
Italy -
Semino et al. 1989 (Sicily) [49 samples]: 4.40%
Plaza et al. 2003 (Southern Italy) [37 samples]: 8.1%
Brisighelli et al. 2012 (NW Italy) [100 samples]: 2%
It's originally from East Africa, as someone else already pointed out.
Yes, it was correct for that municipality, just like the "mysteriously" absent from his cherry-picked list Plaza et al. 2003 statement for southern Italy was absolutely correct and not a misprint either:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....e_Hercules.pdf
L haplogroups are relatively infrequent in Italians (with a maximum of 8.1% in South Italians) and Iberians (with a maximum of 6.1% in Central Portuguese).
I read East Africa as well.. then I read it was also present in ancient times in Middle East, Anatolia, Canary Islands and north Africa .. Some people also believe it is actually Eurasian
Brazil and Italy are far apart, different sides of the world
có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo
when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.
see post #5
Yes, and others he also misteriously missed, like :
Latium (Central Italy) n=4/138 2.90% Achilli et al 2007
Volterra (Central-North Italy) n = 3/114 2.63% Achilli et al 2007
I unmasked this guy. Actually he was half French and half Berber, nothing to do with the Portuguese or Brazilian people. He joins 23andme, and he had the brilliant idea to post the same exact things in both forums. Not difficult to catch him.
Volterra is one of the ancient 12 etruscan cities
you answered the query
Nobody1 is a valued member of this community, one who contributes research and analysis on many topics, from genetics, to history and archaeology, to linguistics, and in the context of discussions about many European countries.
This is in total contrast to you and your Iberian posse, who only grace us with your presence when Spain is mentioned, and then only in the hopes of proving that there is no African influence whatsoever in Iberia, an influence which is manifestly there for everyone to see in the mtDNA, yDNA, and particularly in the autosomal DNA. Your endeavor is therefore doomed to failure and merely makes you all look either dishonest or delusional, and ridiculous in either case. Ever heard of the term ethnic nihilists? I believe it, or something like it, was coined by Maciamo.
Oh, excuse me, if this current visit is any indication, you've moved beyond denying that these mtdna numbers exist (there is deafening silence about the autosomal results shown in recent papers, however) Now, you content yourselves with arguing that Italians have it too. Congratulations...we're seeing some progress in your deprogramming.
And please, spare us all the unending posts about papers that find mtDNA "L" in Italy. You've already directed Maciamo's attention to them in this thread, and have posted them again, and again, and again, in the hundreds, if not thousands, of boring, repetitive other posts on this topic here and elsewhere.
No one on this site, to my knowledge, denies that there is some mtDNA "L" in Italy. I certainly don't. I don't give a ***** behind about it, either. As to arguing about whether some particular study should show 1%, instead of 2-3%, with the aim of trying to somehow deny or minimize its existence whether in the abstract or in relationship to some other nationality, I can't imagine so demeaning myself.
.
And while I'm at it, stop posting papers on the Basques for these kinds of comparisons. Pick up some of the recent autosomal studies on Europe, and look up the SSA percentages, the EEF percentages, you name it. For whatever reason, you have a different profile than even Pais Vasco...a small minority of your population anyway...deal with it.
Really, and I mean this sincerely...you and your friends and many of the young people whose posts I have read on the topic of genetics have been led astray. I try to excuse this kind of behavior on the grounds of what I presume is the extreme youth of you and your friends...but at your age I was working 60-70 hours a week, which didn't leave me any time to obsess on that kind of nonsense even had I been at all inclined to those kinds of viewpoints. If the economy prevents that, go to school, broaden your mind and your horizons. Study the culture of your own country...that should be the source of your pride, not how many "European" or northwest European or Celtic or whatever genes you have...
Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci
what's wrong with L mtDNA anyway?
Etruscan connection could be confirmed then
I don't see how that follows. The fact that it's found there today doesn't mean it was necessarily brought by Etruscans perhaps 3,000 years ago; a lot of migrations occurred both before and after the Etruscans, if indeed they weren't "native" in whole or in great majority.
The only way that a link could be made in any way definitively would be if we had an Etruscan "L" mtDNA that was similar to the mtDNA L found there today. Unfortunately, even leaving aside the fact that there isn't enough resolution of the L3d found there, an actual ancient Etruscan sample that carries any "L" lineage has never been found.
Absolutely nothing, fla88. This hobby attracts bizarre people.
Well, Angela, you certainly don't work 60+ plus hours a week now because you are never away from this site.
ITALIANS start most of the trouble on these websites by claiming they are "whiter" than Iberians.
Interestingly, the best of Italian culture is in Tuscany which definitely has more mtdna L than is usual in Europe.
Apart from unusual Spain and Portugal - who have levels of mtDNA L as 18.2% (Alvarez et al 2010) and 22.0% (Pereira et al 2010) and other such high figures [page1 - post#19 / post#11] not found anywhere else in Europe - might also want to take note of the Eupedia map on page 1 and the data used for it;
For 22% and 18% are higher (basic math) than the 1.9% Tuscany (2.6% Volterra);
PS: The other "Celt"-Iberians (Knovas especially) might find your slander and assertions towards Angela very "helpful" and awesome, but i think its not very nice;
When you attack respected forum members such as Angela and Nobody1 because you don't like data they've published, I don't think it helps your credibility. And why do Iberians have a problem with the fact that they have a small but significant amount of "African" DNA? Why is that a problem for you? At the end of the day, all modern humans are very close cousins.
Nobody1 is a troublemaker with high pretensions of being something of an "expert" (which he is plainly not) and with a very transparent agenda, nothing else, and has been so since the very start, his very firsts posts in these forums were in fact attempted manipulations and "spins" on this very subject of "African" DNA in Europe, something which very obviously immensely bothers him as long as the words "Africa" and "Italy" pop up in the same context ("coincidentally" so was the permanently banned "Wormhole", an Italian claiming to be Canadian.) Notice that the Tuscan user was not saying anything about Iberia or Iberians and was only wondering who brought these genetic markers to Italy, more specifically to Tuscany. But your pal Nobody1 just couldn't keep away from always trying to point fingers at "Iberians" and coming up with lies (like telling this user that his ancestry might be from Iberia supposedly to "explain" why he scores positive, as if no 100% native Italian could do so) and manipulations. His usual game.
My posts here about mtDNA L in Italy were simply in answer to those Nobody1, the usual manipulator/Spin-Doctor when it comes to this topic since way back when. So don't act so surprised.
Regarding your other complaints: as Vallicanus pointed out, you and some other Italian/Italian-descended users here are not really in any position to be criticizing other people in these forums since your behavior is not always the most exceptional either, and it is usually you who throw stones first, not the other way around. Do you want me to quote and post links to some of your provoking posts directed at Iberians in other threads to remind you of this fact?
You should be directing that query to the "respected forum members" whose behavior you are trying to condone. It seems it's them and some other Italians who are immensely bothered by the fact that they too "have a small but significant amount of African DNA".
Indeed, apparently they think that trying to place the blame on others is going to work and nobody will notice what they do.
The 18% result is only for a municipality. If we look at the results of Casas et al. 2006 for southern Spain + southern Portugal (not all "Iberia", as you claimed) combined against those of southern Italy alone by itself in Plaza et al. 2003 we can also see that 8.1% is higher than 7.40% (basic math)
The map on page 1 omitted several studies. That was already established.
He wasn't slandering anyone, just pointing out the fact of what you and your friend obviously do around here.PS: The other "Celt"-Iberians (Knovas especially) might find your slander and assertions towards Angela very "helpful" and awesome, but i think its not very nice;
What a boorish, vulgar and completely ignorant response...Are you capable of processing academic information?
As to "the trouble on these websites", I don't know anything about it, because I don't frequent skinhead, racist sites, some of which were started by people whom I am informed are now thankfully behind bars. I didn't even know that they existed until recently. Now that I know about them, I am more than happy to donate some of my time to seeing them permanently put out of business, and I mean "ALL" of them.
This is the only "genetics" website which I frequent, other than anthrogenica, and I'm embarrassed even about that, given that my office administrator has banned this as a racist site as well, probably partly because of the bilge posted by you and your friends. I assure you that reading the few threads in which I am interested takes very little time...in your case, perhaps a speed reading course might be in order. Of course, reading and understanding population genetics research papers is another matter, but you obviously have no experience with that...
As for my private life situation, it's none of your business, but let's just say that through years of very hard work and whatever gifts I possess, I have earned my leisure. If, as I think I remember, you claim to be from Canada, you have no excuse not to do the same.
For the record, I am half Tuscan/eastern Ligurian, and extraordinarily proud of my people...without us, the world would be a much poorer place in every conceivable way, as it would be without Italians as a whole. Obviously, you must have been spawned by some group which we had neither the time nor the inclination to civilize, however imperfectly.
And please, to adopt a Roman name for these sites and then spout the bilge and filth that you do is an abomination. I sincerely hope you're young and unemployed and living in your mother's basement...for a grown man to engage in these childish games is ridiculous.
It's been a very long time since you were banned under the t.r.o.l.l.-nickname Wormhole. You can keep going on, don't worry.
Just to illustrate what DracII says, this is what you said when answering to the Italian girl (post number 11):
It is mostly present in modern-day Europe in Iberia (Spain/Portugal) and maybe your ancestral MOM stems from there; Modern-day Tuscany (322 samples / Achilli et al 2008) has 1.8% mtDNA L;
And now, smile for the camera ;)
Last edited by Knovas; 02-03-14 at 20:14.
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