New map of mtDNA haplogroup L

[Drac II]

what's wrong with L mtDNA anyway?

Nothing, but apparently some of your fellow Italians have a strange phobia regarding it and must always conjure up "Iberians" when someone starts asking questions about these genetic markers in Italy.

[Drac II]

I unmasked this guy. Actually he was half French and half Berber, nothing to do with the Portuguese or Brazilian people. He joins 23andme, and he had the brilliant idea to post the same exact things in both forums. Not difficult to catch him.

Interesting. I don't remember seeing this. Where did the "unmasking" take place? I must have missed it. I always suspected he might be Brazilian, since Portuguese people usually don't have such obsessions about Spain and "African" DNA, but some Brazilians and other Latin Americans most definitely do.

[Knovas]

He wasn't slandering anyone, just pointing out the fact of what you and your friend obviously do around here.

If someone can prove I was wrong, then I'm all ears. I published all the details and it was pretty evident, that guy wasn't so smart trying to hide his afrocentrist agenda.

[Drac II]

Volterra is one of the ancient 12 etruscan cities

you answered the query

You missed the point, which was that he is always manipulating and cherry-picking whichever data suits his transparent agenda.

By the way, if you pool all the data in mtDNA studies about Italy published so far, you will end up with a higher frequency of mtDNA L in central Italy than in other parts. Since the Etruscans inhabited mostly the central parts of Italy, I think that answers the query of why some people who have an interest in trying to find out why this happened think of the Etruscans as a possible explanation.

[Drac II]

If someone can prove I was wrong, then I'm all ears. I published all the details and it was pretty evident, that guy wasn't so smart trying to hide his afrocentrist agenda.

I am not disputing your findings about this user, only was asking where did you expose him. I would be interested in seeing it. Was it here or in another forum/site?

[Drac II]

Brazil and Italy are far apart, different sides of the world

I know, I never said that user was Italian.

[Knovas]

Interesting. I don't remember seeing this. Where did the "unmasking" take place? I must have missed it. I always suspected he might be Brazilian, since Portuguese people usually don't have such obsessions about Spain and "African" DNA, but some Brazilians and other Latin Americans most definitely do.

That happened about two years ago, honestly I'm tired to search posts. But he was even taking part in the Dodecad Project, where he gave all his ancestry details (publicly available). I just had to compare the data with the 23andme profile, and then the threads started by this subject. No doubt it was the same person.

The information was posted in this forum, of course.

[Drac II]

I read East Africa as well.. then I read it was also present in ancient times in Middle East, Anatolia, Canary Islands and north Africa .. Some people also believe it is actually Eurasian

Yes, correct, but the place where it originated was East Africa. It reached all those other places later, as early humans started to migrate to other parts of the world out of Africa, as well as possibly later migrations/invasions/slavery.

[Drac II]

see post #5

See posts #4, #6 and #13. There is no valid excuse to leave out perfectly legitimate studies just because they don't say what some people want to hear or do not go along with whatever incorrect assumptions they may have (one particularly interesting one implied here was that the only way any study on mtDNA in Spain could result in 0% regarding L markers in any given area might be by using exclusively samples from the Basque region; totally incorrect assumption.)

[Angela]

Nobody1 is a troublemaker with high pretensions of being something of an "expert" (which he is plainly not) and with a very transparent agenda, nothing else, and has been so since the very start, his very firsts posts in these forums were in fact attempted manipulations and "spins" on this very subject of "African" DNA in Europe, something which very obviously immensely bothers him as long as the words "Africa" and "Italy" pop up in the same context ("coincidentally" so was the permanently banned "Wormhole", an Italian claiming to be Canadian.) Notice that the Tuscan user was not saying anything about Iberia or Iberians and was only wondering who brought these genetic markers to Italy, more specifically to Tuscany. But your pal Nobody1 just couldn't keep away from always trying to point fingers at "Iberians" and coming up with lies (like telling this user that his ancestry might be from Iberia supposedly to "explain" why he scores positive, as if no 100% native Italian could do so) and manipulations. His usual game.

My posts here about mtDNA L in Italy were simply in answer to those Nobody1, the usual manipulator/Spin-Doctor when it comes to this topic since way back when. So don't act so surprised.

Regarding your other complaints: as Vallicanus pointed out, you and some other Italian/Italian-descended users here are not really in any position to be criticizing other people in these forums since your behavior is not always the most exceptional either, and it is usually you who throw stones first, not the other way around. Do you want me to quote and post links to some of your provoking posts directed at Iberians in other threads to remind you of this fact?

Only in the sick, twisted world of anthrofora Iberians could the disinterested comment that the Moors "might" be responsible for "some" of the "African" markers in the Iberians be considered a provocative attack. (I am not in the habit of making definitive "pronouncements" about these matters absent compelling evidence, which, given the status of the resolution of ancient "and" modern mtDNA lineages is impossible, in my opinion.)

By the way, are all these Spanish researchers also part of this vast anti-Iberian conspiracy? Is the owner of this website included? Have you taken a look at the map on this page? The only error I can find is the fact that certain papers on southern Italy were not included, although accessing the actual data from those papers might be difficult.

Have you, for that matter, read the papers on autosomal European genetics of the last couple of years? How do you explain those results away? Do you have any self awareness at all? Is your paranoia limited to this topic or more generalized? If it is more generalized, there are medications that might be helpful. Unfortunately, there are no medicines for terminal racism, outright dishonesty, or lack of intellectual capacity.

Just for clarity, I'm one of those Tuscan posters who was engaged in the discussion upthread about how these markers got to Toscana. However, neither you nor anyone else is going to bully me into not analyzing and discussing similar data in any country, including Spain.

All the same, my time for responding to illogical and biased posts is limited...I will investigate whether it is possible to block the comments you and your Iberian junta post from appearing when I log onto this site...it's a response I would recommend to others until and if the website administrators realize that it is posts like yours that offend new users like fla, and get this site black listed ...then intelligent people can conduct these discussions without being derailed and having their time wasted.

The only people who should be banned are you and other racists of your ilk...

[fla88]

Yes, correct, but the place where it originated was East Africa. It reached all those other places later, as early humans started to migrate to other parts of the world out of Africa, as well as possibly later migrations/invasions/slavery.

East Africa then.. Ethiopia?

I wasn't trying to say that Etruscans carried L mtDNA, but that it might be brought to Italy that way. Ethiopians might have mixed with people from Anatolia. There are many different ways it could be brought to Italy, I suppose (during Roman empire for instance)

[Wilhelm]

Apart from unusual Spain and Portugal - who have levels of mtDNA L as 18.2% (Alvarez et al 2010) and 22.0% (Pereira et al 2010) and other such high figures [page1 - post#19 / post#11] not found anywhere else in Europe - might also want to take note of the Eupedia map on page 1 and the data used for it;

For 22% and 18% are higher (basic math) than the 1.9% Tuscany (2.6% Volterra);

PS: The other "Celt"-Iberians (Knovas especially) might find your slander and assertions towards Angela very "helpful" and awesome, but i think its not very nice;

I know you are just a tro11, but in case somebody is reading your crap...the 18% is not for Spain but for a small municipality with a popoulation of only a few thousand people,..You can't compare that with an entire region like Tuscany, it's laughable your manipulation and distortion of reality.
And In the case of Alcacer Do Sal (22%) it's a municipality whose history is well known and well documented for being an transatlantic slave town, in other words, they are not fully ethnic portuguese but descendants of Slaves.

[Vallicanus]

What a boorish, vulgar and completely ignorant response...Are you capable of processing academic information?

As to "the trouble on these websites", I don't know anything about it, because I don't frequent skinhead, racist sites, some of which were started by people whom I am informed are now thankfully behind bars. I didn't even know that they existed until recently. Now that I know about them, I am more than happy to donate some of my time to seeing them permanently put out of business, and I mean "ALL" of them.

This is the only "genetics" website which I frequent, other than anthrogenica, and I'm embarrassed even about that, given that my office administrator has banned this as a racist site as well, probably partly because of the bilge posted by you and your friends. I assure you that reading the few threads in which I am interested takes very little time...in your case, perhaps a speed reading course might be in order. Of course, reading and understanding population genetics research papers is another matter, but you obviously have no experience with that...

As for my private life situation, it's none of your business, but let's just say that through years of very hard work and whatever gifts I possess, I have earned my leisure. If, as I think I remember, you claim to be from Canada, you have no excuse not to do the same.

For the record, I am half Tuscan/eastern Ligurian, and extraordinarily proud of my people...without us, the world would be a much poorer place in every conceivable way, as it would be without Italians as a whole. Obviously, you must have been spawned by some group which we had neither the time nor the inclination to civilize, however imperfectly.

And please, to adopt a Roman name for these sites and then spout the bilge and filth that you do is an abomination. I sincerely hope you're young and unemployed and living in your mother's basement...for a grown man to engage in these childish games is ridiculous.

You call me VULGAR?

According to your gentle self I have been spawned and I spout filth.

It is obvious how have never been exposed to any form of higher education and you are the racist.

So in your view the world owes much to Italians when Italy as a modern nation only dates to 1861 (thanks to French and British assistance).

[Sile]

When you attack respected forum members such as Angela and Nobody1 because you don't like data they've published, I don't think it helps your credibility. And why do Iberians have a problem with the fact that they have a small but significant amount of "African" DNA? Why is that a problem for you? At the end of the day, all modern humans are very close cousins.

It's because some idiots bring nationality issues into these forums, when they fail to realise that all modern Europeans started life as non-europeans. The oldest and original europeans where neanderthals

[Sile]

Nobody1 is a troublemaker with high pretensions of being something of an "expert" (which he is plainly not) and with a very transparent agenda, nothing else, and has been so since the very start, his very firsts posts in these forums were in fact attempted manipulations and "spins" on this very subject of "African" DNA in Europe, something which very obviously immensely bothers him as long as the words "Africa" and "Italy" pop up in the same context ("coincidentally" so was the permanently banned "Wormhole", an Italian claiming to be Canadian.) Notice that the Tuscan user was not saying anything about Iberia or Iberians and was only wondering who brought these genetic markers to Italy, more specifically to Tuscany. But your pal Nobody1 just couldn't keep away from always trying to point fingers at "Iberians" and coming up with lies (like telling this user that his ancestry might be from Iberia supposedly to "explain" why he scores positive, as if no 100% native Italian could do so) and manipulations. His usual game.

My posts here about mtDNA L in Italy were simply in answer to those Nobody1, the usual manipulator/Spin-Doctor when it comes to this topic since way back when. So don't act so surprised.

Regarding your other complaints: as Vallicanus pointed out, you and some other Italian/Italian-descended users here are not really in any position to be criticizing other people in these forums since your behavior is not always the most exceptional either, and it is usually you who throw stones first, not the other way around. Do you want me to quote and post links to some of your provoking posts directed at Iberians in other threads to remind you of this fact?

who are these "some other Italian/Italian-descended users" ? I am very interested in your groupings of people based on nationality/descended nationality

[Sile]

You should be directing that query to the "respected forum members" whose behavior you are trying to condone. It seems it's them and some other Italians who are immensely bothered by the fact that they too "have a small but significant amount of African DNA".

Before pointing the finger, you should reveal who you are, everything is hidden away.........ethnicity, genetics etc ................what are you ashamed of ?

[Sile]

what's wrong with L mtDNA anyway?

nothing is wrong it any genetic marker. Some people just use it for some warped nationalistic tones.

all you need to find is how long has yours been in Tuscany.

take a look at mine...from oldest to now...........I use it as a road map


L1'2'3'4'5'6
L2'3'4'5'6
L2'3'4'6
L3'4'6
L3'4
L3
N
R
R0
HV
H
H95a

[Sile]

I know, I never said that user was Italian.

You confused people on targeting Italians when the person was portuguese/brazilian, why ?

[Sile]

See posts #4, #6 and #13. There is no valid excuse to leave out perfectly legitimate studies just because they don't say what some people want to hear or do not go along with whatever incorrect assumptions they may have (one particularly interesting one implied here was that the only way any study on mtDNA in Spain could result in 0% regarding L markers in any given area might be by using exclusively samples from the Basque region; totally incorrect assumption.)

Your missing the point......we all know L1, L2, L3 has origins in Africa.....N has origins in the caucasus etc .............but this is only origins and not where it only resided for thousands of year.
I like to see what L3 she is

I read recently that mutations occur on average every 4000 years, back or forward and that geographical changes ie migrations speeds up this mutation process initially before it subsides to "normality"

[Sile]

East Africa then.. Ethiopia?

I wasn't trying to say that Etruscans carried L mtDNA, but that it might be brought to Italy that way. Ethiopians might have mixed with people from Anatolia. There are many different ways it could be brought to Italy, I suppose (during Roman empire for instance)

Who did you test with? ...if it was 23andme, it would show your mutations from original to present, if not

use haplogrep...........they use the new tree#16

http://haplogrep.uibk.ac.at/index.html

[fla88]

Who did you test with? ...if it was 23andme, it would show your mutations from original to present, if not

use haplogrep...........they use the new tree#16

http://haplogrep.uibk.ac.at/index.html

23anMe yes. You mean the list of mutations in "ancestry tools"?
My mtDNA is L3f1b

[Sile]

23anMe yes. You mean the list of mutations in "ancestry tools"?

yes

this

haplogroup Mutation mapper

and


Global Similarity Map


Countries of Ancestry

[Wilhelm]

I know you are just a tro11, but in case somebody is reading your crap...the 18% is not for Spain but for a small municipality with a popoulation of only a few thousand people,..You can't compare that with an entire region like Tuscany, it's laughable your manipulation and distortion of reality.
And In the case of Alcacer Do Sal (22%) it's a municipality whose history is well known and well documented for being an transatlantic slave town, in other words, they are not fully ethnic portuguese but descendants of Slaves.

Lol, LebRok (as usual) has sent me an "infraction" for the above message because to him "i'm insulting".

[Knovas]

23anMe yes. You mean the list of mutations in "ancestry tools"?
My mtDNA is L3f1b

I have a French distant cousin (relative finder) who belongs exactly to the same line. Seems quite old in Europe, I'd say at least since the Roman period.

[Sile]

I have a French distant cousin (relative finder) who belongs exactly to the same line. Seems quite old in Europe, I'd say at least since the Roman period.

too date there does not seem to be many L3f1b..........according to data from torroni, behar and logan, from what I seen, there is about 95% in Europe, 1 in Dominican republic, 1 in Ethiopia and 1 in Tanzania

Haplogroups L2a1, L3f1b, L3b, and L1b are the most
frequent (over 3%) sub-Saharan haplogroups in Libyans.
Haplogroup L2a1 is common and apparently scattered
throughout Africa (Salas et al., 2002), and therefore its
geographical origin is difficult to assess. However, L1b,
L3b, and L3f1b have more restricted locations in Africa.
These haplogroups, together with other minor lineages
in Libya such as L2b, L2c, L3d, and L3e have a typical
Western Africa distribution (Salas et al., 2002; Harich
et al., 2010). Nonetheless, other minor lineages present
in Libya such as L0a, L3h, and L3x are more frequent in
Eastern Africa. Such haplogroup frequency distribution
suggests a predominantly Western origin of L lineages in
Libya with some minor admixture of Eastern lineages.


do tell me the etruscan-libyan connection will raise its head again from 20 years ago?!