New map of mtDNA haplogroup L

[fla88]

yes

this

haplogroup Mutation mapper

and


Global Similarity Map


Countries of Ancestry

after clicking on haplogroup mutation mapper, and then "get information for a person's haplogroup" , this list appears:

L3f1b defining mutations
variant	call	rCRS	anc
i3002025		189	A
i3002034	G	189	A
i3001999	C	1822	T
i3000737		8527	A
i3000790	T	8932	C
i3001017	A	11440	G
i5050027	A	11440	G
i3001319		14769	A
i3001320		14769	A
i3002605		14769	A
rs28357679		14769	A
i5049767		14769	A
i3001802		16292	C
i3001803		16292	C
i3001804	T	16292	C
L3f1 defining mutations
variant	call	rCRS	anc
i3002257	T	5601	C
rs3134801	C	9950	T
i5049954	C	9950	T
L3f defining mutations
variant	call	rCRS	anc
i3002071	C	3396	T
i5049769	C	3396	T
i4000907	C	4218	T
i3001392	C	15514	T
i5049953		15514	T
i4001054	C	16209	T
L3b'f defining mutations
variant	call	rCRS	anc
L3 defining mutations
variant	call	rCRS	anc
rs2853519	G	769	G
i3001949	G	769	G
i5049944		769	G
rs2856982		1018	G
i3001452	G	1018	G
L3'4 defining mutations
variant	call	rCRS	anc
rs41473347		182	C
i3001445		182	C
rs2854134	C	3594	C
rs28625947	C	7256	C
rs2854123	C	13650	C
i5049924		13650	C
rs41458645		16278	C
i3001790	C	16278	C
L3'4'6 defining mutations
variant	call	rCRS	anc
rs1117205	A	4104	A
i1000010	G	7521	G
i3001488	G	7521	G
L2'3'4'6 defining mutations
variant	call	rCRS	anc
rs2857291		195	T
i3002066	T	195	T
rs41334645		247	G
i3001448		247	G
rs2853520	T	825	T
rs2853822		8655	C
i3002650	C	8655	C
rs2853488	G	10688	G
rs28358282	T	10810	T
i3000954	T	10810	T
rs2853501	A	13105	A
i5049946	A	13105	A
rs2857287	C	13506	C
rs28573847		15301	G
i3001523	A	15301	G
i5050460	A	15301	G
i4990110	G	16129	G
i3001531		16129	G
i3001605		16129	G
rs41534744		16129	G
i4000590	C	16187	C
i4000591	C	16187	C
rs28693675		16189	T
i4000587	T	16189	T
L2-6 defining mutations
variant	call	rCRS	anc
i3001922	T	152	T
rs2856980	G	2758	G
rs2854130	T	2885	T
rs28546855	A	7146	A
rs1116907	C	8468	C
i3000730	C	8468	C
i5049841	C	8468	C
L1-6 defining mutations
variant	call	rCRS	anc
i3001869	T	146	T
rs41473347		182	C
i3001445		182	C
i3002160	C	4312	C
rs2854121	C	10664	C
rs2857285	T	10915	T
i5049974		10915	T
rs2853496	G	11914	G
i5049758	G	11914	G
rs2853502	A	13276	A
rs2853514	A	16230	A

[fla88]

Global similarity map:








And countries of origin:

[Sile]

Global similarity map:








And countries of origin:

Maps 1 and 2, show you are from Romagna or le Marche areas.
Map 3 = south tyrol or maybe east tyrol area.

Basically, you have no tuscan in any of the maps, even though you live there now.

all the other data indicates you are more Italian to me, that is for longer period .

I have relatives in Lucca ( tuscany) the Benedetti's ( who moved from Rimini in Romagna a while ago )................email me privately IF you think you have relatives in that area ( I am in 23andme also). We might have some relatives.

Going by all the black drops, you have been busy in organising some "relatives" in 23andme

[kamani]

anybody know why on those maps North Italians are below the big Italian group? the axis in the left says north/south with north up..

[Sile]

anybody know why on those maps North Italians are below the big Italian group? the axis in the left says north/south with north up..

I don't know unless north italian only indicates NW Italy , i suspect its upside down and the sardinian was thrown in as a distant side marker.....maybe a programmers fantasy.
but Fla88 23andme conflict from where she currently could be....which is tuscany

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maybe 23andme gives data for only 500 years ago, no earlier or no later


EDIT: but I also have conflict with her appearing here

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[Sile]

Mine shifted last week from below the 2 black drops to present

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so maybe you cannot use this map very much

[Drac II]

Only in the sick, twisted world of anthrofora Iberians could the disinterested comment that the Moors "might" be responsible for "some" of the "African" markers in the Iberians be considered a provocative attack. (I am not in the habit of making definitive "pronouncements" about these matters absent compelling evidence, which, given the status of the resolution of ancient "and" modern mtDNA lineages is impossible, in my opinion.)

By the way, are all these Spanish researchers also part of this vast anti-Iberian conspiracy? Is the owner of this website included? Have you taken a look at the map on this page? The only error I can find is the fact that certain papers on southern Italy were not included, although accessing the actual data from those papers might be difficult.

Have you, for that matter, read the papers on autosomal European genetics of the last couple of years? How do you explain those results away? Do you have any self awareness at all? Is your paranoia limited to this topic or more generalized? If it is more generalized, there are medications that might be helpful. Unfortunately, there are no medicines for terminal racism, outright dishonesty, or lack of intellectual capacity.

Just for clarity, I'm one of those Tuscan posters who was engaged in the discussion upthread about how these markers got to Toscana. However, neither you nor anyone else is going to bully me into not analyzing and discussing similar data in any country, including Spain.

All the same, my time for responding to illogical and biased posts is limited...I will investigate whether it is possible to block the comments you and your Iberian junta post from appearing when I log onto this site...it's a response I would recommend to others until and if the website administrators realize that it is posts like yours that offend new users like fla, and get this site black listed ...then intelligent people can conduct these discussions without being derailed and having their time wasted.

The only people who should be banned are you and other racists of your ilk...

It is not your posts about that "possibility" that I was referring to, even though some of them just reveal more about your fixation with the subject, even when the study/map in question contradicts such a possibility. Witness for example your bizarre claim regarding that map about skin pigmentation alleles which even shows Moroccans as having more of them than Andalusians, yet in your mind the "explanation" was very likely to be them pesky "Moors" having "darkened" Andalusians. How exactly did such a miracle happen when the modern descendants of those very "Moors" show a higher level of light skin pigmentation alleles than the population they supposedly "darkened" apparently did not occur to you.

Yes, I've seen many autosomal papers, but it's another topic than haplogroup markers, plus they don't quite exactly say what some people would like to hear either.

The person you are alluding to sometimes also shows some strange arguments himself regarding this subject, but unlike you he can take the criticism and sometimes even corrects his assumptions.

The only racism in display in these forums is in the posts by the likes of you and your pal Nobody1, always so eager to manipulate and spin around things that don't suit your agendas.

[Drac II]

East Africa then.. Ethiopia?

I wasn't trying to say that Etruscans carried L mtDNA, but that it might be brought to Italy that way. Ethiopians might have mixed with people from Anatolia. There are many different ways it could be brought to Italy, I suppose (during Roman empire for instance)

Yes, totally correct. Those are all perfectly valid possibilities, even though as you saw from a quoted paper about the genetics of the ancient Etruscans that possibility is very likely less plausible than other ones. It seems that something happened with the demographics of the territories inhabited by the Etruscans (mostly central Italy) after the decline of their civilization that brought more people with not only mtDNA L but also with more genetic similarity to Near Easterners.

[Drac II]

You confused people on targeting Italians when the person was portuguese/brazilian, why ?

Huh? I never said that "Luis" fellow was Italian. I always thought he was Brazilian.

[fla88]

no wait, I'm not from Toscana..I'm from Liguria (Savona).. there 's higher percentage of L mDNA in Liguria and Toscana (that's why I was talking about Etruscans, even if I'm not from Toscana).

I don't know about any ancestors from Marche or Romagna. My maternal grandparents are from Liguria. My paternal grandmother is from Mondovì in Piemonte, and my paternal grandfather is from Belluno in Veneto. My great grandparents were all from Liguria, Piemonte and Veneto. My DNA relatives in 23 and me are all from north of Italy.

[fla88]

Sile, I've sent you a private message

[Angela]

anybody know why on those maps North Italians are below the big Italian group? the axis in the left says north/south with north up..

I think the orientation is off. However, I also think it should only be used for a very rough approximation because it was done a very long time ago, and has just never been corrected now that they have so many more samples, and the process itself has been refined.

[Angela]

no wait, I'm not from Toscana..I'm from Liguria (Savona).. there 's higher percentage of L mDNA in Liguria and Toscana (that's why I was talking about Etruscans, even if I'm not from Toscana).

I don't know about any ancestors from Marche or Romagna. My maternal grandparents are from Liguria. My paternal grandmother is from Mondovì in Piemonte, and my paternal grandfather is from Belluno in Veneto. My great grandparents were all from Liguria, Piemonte and Veneto. My DNA relatives in 23 and me are all from north of Italy.

These PCA's have to do with autosomal DNA, not mtDNA. Your mtDNA is a very small percentage of your total genetic make-up, even if it may have important effects on health, etc. Therefore, it may, depending on the circumstances, have very little, in fact, to tell you about your total autosomal make-up.

In addition, PCA's in general, given that they show only two dimensions, and capture less than half your autosomal variation, should only, in my opinion, be one tool for analyzing one's genetic relationship to other people.

Also, this doesn't at all say you're from the Marche or, for goodness sakes, the Tyrol. What it does say is that your unique genetic signature, while it is definitely plotting in northern Italy as one would expect, is being pulled east of where one might expect you to be given that you say that most of your genetic ancestry is from northwestern Italy, unless that is incorrect? Take a look at the ancestry of all of your great grandparents and see what percentage is attributable to the Veneto. Of course, given the mysteries of recombination, the genetic signature doesn't always neatly match geographic percentages. Even siblings, through random inheritance, can plot somewhat differently

[Sile]

I think the orientation is off. However, I also think it should only be used for a very rough approximation because it was done a very long time ago, and has just never been corrected now that they have so many more samples, and the process itself has been refined.

I wrote to 23andme about this issue...I await there reply.

[Sile]

Sile, I've sent you a private message

ok

I know your cognomi and I started checking if we had relations via 1800-1820 registrars..........but Belluno province was austrian held those times so no chance.......except the southern area , see below ............I have ancestral surnames in those regions of northern belluno province ......not my surname, but these, colotto, olivotto, losso, toigo and cemin
http://www.antenati.san.benicultural...ia+di+Belluno/

I will take a quick look at your surname(s)

It might take a few days

ciao

[Sile]

These PCA's have to do with autosomal DNA, not mtDNA. Your mtDNA is a very small percentage of your total genetic make-up, even if it may have important effects on health, etc. Therefore, it may, depending on the circumstances, have very little, in fact, to tell you about your total autosomal make-up.

In addition, PCA's in general, given that they show only two dimensions, and capture less than half your autosomal variation, should only, in my opinion, be one tool for analyzing one's genetic relationship to other people.

Also, this doesn't at all say you're from the Marche or, for goodness sakes, the Tyrol. What it does say is that your unique genetic signature, while it is definitely plotting in northern Italy as one would expect, is being pulled east of where one might expect you to be given that you say that most of your genetic ancestry is from northwestern Italy, unless that is incorrect? Take a look at the ancestry of all of your great grandparents and see what percentage is attributable to the Veneto. Of course, given the mysteries of recombination, the genetic signature doesn't always neatly match geographic percentages. Even siblings, through random inheritance, can plot somewhat differently

yes, its pulling east, away from tuscany and liguria.....as stated to me by 23andme person, from marche to the tyrol ( they even incorporate trieste, cadore di piave areas) . The NW spot/corner is le marche

I agree with you, ALL these maps lack accuracy AND they change on a regular basis, so they should not be a long term answer . My 3 maps have changed 3 times since December 2013.

[fla88]

I know that my paternal grandfather was from Belluno (Feltre, precisely), and his family was from Veneto by generations

[Angela]

I know that my paternal grandfather was from Belluno (Feltre, precisely), and his family was from Veneto by generations

That's only 25% of your ancestry, but, as I said, inheritance and recombination are random. By the time you reach the great grandparent level, you might inherit a great deal from one of them, and nothing from another. If you search within 23andme, you will find some nice explanations of how this works...you don't necessarily get a neat one fourth of your ancestry from one grandparent each. It doesn't work like that.

[fla88]

I've got prof. McDonald's results.

Most likely fit is 24.7% (+- 13.0%) Europe (various subcontinents)
and 75.3% (+- 13.0%) Europe (all Southern Europe)
which is 100% total Europe

The following are possible population sets and their fractions,
most likely at the top
French= 0.278 Tuscan= 0.722 or
English= 0.198 Tuscan= 0.802 or
Irish= 0.164 Tuscan= 0.836 or
Germany= 0.185 Tuscan= 0.815 or
Lithuania= 0.129 Tuscan= 0.871 or
Poland= 0.154 Tuscan= 0.846 or
Hungary= 0.237 Tuscan= 0.763 or
Belorus= 0.153 Tuscan= 0.847 or
Spain= 0.421 Tuscan= 0.579 or
French= 0.550 Sicily= 0.450

And this is likely correct, i.e. essentially Italian. That accounts for the
large but “weak” Mideast on the chromosomes.

[Sile]

I've got prof. McDonald's results.

Most likely fit is 24.7% (+- 13.0%) Europe (various subcontinents)
and 75.3% (+- 13.0%) Europe (all Southern Europe)
which is 100% total Europe

The following are possible population sets and their fractions,
most likely at the top
French= 0.278 Tuscan= 0.722 or
English= 0.198 Tuscan= 0.802 or
Irish= 0.164 Tuscan= 0.836 or
Germany= 0.185 Tuscan= 0.815 or
Lithuania= 0.129 Tuscan= 0.871 or
Poland= 0.154 Tuscan= 0.846 or
Hungary= 0.237 Tuscan= 0.763 or
Belorus= 0.153 Tuscan= 0.847 or
Spain= 0.421 Tuscan= 0.579 or
French= 0.550 Sicily= 0.450

And this is likely correct, i.e. essentially Italian. That accounts for the
large but “weak” Mideast on the chromosomes.

As McDonald stated to me ...........if you are 100% european, your line has been somewhere in Europe from over 2100 years ago.

He also stated,
Italian is north italian in his splits, while tuscan is central and south italian

your X- chromosone in regards to middle-east is all on the maternal , a little bit by the maternal,paternal part, but the rest is maternal maternal side

you have far more charts than what I got from Doug

[Sile]

mine as to compare and i am 100% european ....................even though you have many more non-european lines on your bars, it would seem you crossed into Europe slightly later than me but still over 2100 years ago.


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[Vallicanus]

It has to be said that Boattini's recent survey on Italian uniparental markers found ZERO mtdna L in Tuscany and ZERO for the whole of Italy.

[Sile]

It has to be said that Boattini's recent survey on Italian uniparental markers found ZERO mtdna L in Tuscany and ZERO for the whole of Italy.

maybe, but Francesca Brisighelli recent revamped 2013 paper found
1% in south Italy
1% in central Italy and
2% in northern Italy

but scholars state L ( maybe L3 ) arrived in southern portugal in the Epipaleolithic period, ~8000, followed by a catalan/valencia area ( chalcolithic ~5000 period)

Catalans and ligurians where very much tied to each other until alfonso V period, plus you have catalans traveling to italy ( back and forth ) via france for a long period of time

[Vallicanus]

maybe, but Francesca Brisighelli recent revamped 2013 paper found
1% in south Italy
1% in central Italy and
2% in northern Italy

Very interesting!

Do you have the link, thanks.

[Knovas]

maybe, but Francesca Brisighelli recent revamped 2013 paper found
1% in south Italy
1% in central Italy and
2% in northern Italy

but scholars state L ( maybe L3 ) arrived in southern portugal in the Epipaleolithic period, ~8000, followed by a catalan/valencia area ( chalcolithic ~5000 period)

Catalans and ligurians where very much tied to each other until alfonso V period, plus you have catalans traveling to italy ( back and forth ) via france for a long period of time

Even if L is an ancient marker in Iberia (it is well known at this point that a couple of samples were found in Navarre, none of them L3), it is more likely that most L clades found across Europe were brought by women slaves recruited by the Romans. They also travelled back and forth to many places.

You basically say it spread in relatively recent times from Iberia. I don't see any Catalan "responsability" regarding the L figures for Tuscany or North Italy, nor the other way around (¿How about this possibility? ¬¬)

The available data does not support your point. Ancient L samples in Iberia were L2 (confirmed results), not the type we're dealing with right now.