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Thread: New map of mtDNA haplogroup L

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    you clearly know more about autosomal than me, but its a bit much to claim 23andme are the best at telling us who a north-italian is or tuscan or anyone else in Italy when they have only 13 samples of North-italians
    Population Source Sample Size
    Italy 23andMe 556
    Italy 1000 Genomes 98
    North Italian HGDP 13
    Tuscan HGDP 8

    clearly Gedmatch stands head and shoulders above 23andme who I find very much lacking in regards to auDna splits

    I don't mean to be difficult or offensive in any way, but I really don't understand your point here...

    23andme uses ALL the publicly available autosomal research data sets for its analysis; that means it uses the HGDP data set, but it uses many others as well, including the many other Tuscan data sets, as just one example. In addition, it uses the data of all of its members with four grandparents from Italy, by region. So, it has the data of people with ancestry from southern Italy, Liguria, the Veneto and on and on as part of its data base.

    The fact that it is continually adding to its data base as more people submit their samples is the reason that the results keep changing...as more people add their data, the results become more and more precise. Of course, lots of data can only do so much...the algorithm has to be good as well. If you haven't yet looked at it, you should read the White Paper where the 23andme scientists explain it...it's very impressive I think...no one else is doing anything like it...

    As to your comment about Gedmatch, I also find that confusing. Gedmatch has provided versions of calculators created by a number of hobbyists, including Dienekes. The hobbyists differ in the number of publicly available data sets that they use. To my knowledge, Dienekes is the only one who uses all of the publicly available autosomal data sets for Italians, and, in addition, like 23andme, he has access to the autosomal data of Italians from areas that have not been sampled in research studies. Then, of course, it all depends on whether you trust the objectivity and the competence of these analysts. I don't trust some of their results at all.

    In terms of the other tools available at gedmatch, yes, people can compare themselves to other people who have made their data available, etc. However, whether most people who are using these tools have any idea what they're doing, or how to interpret the results...well, let's say that I am highly skeptical, and leave it at that.


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    Quote Originally Posted by fla88 View Post
    This is what McDonald told me about my mtDNA:

    "It was LONG ago. African slave. Its possible to have L3 mtDNA and in fact REALLY be 100.0000% European on the autosomes, X and Y. "
    I was going to say the same thing but refrained since some people take it the wrong way. An African mtdna and no autosomal dna from Africa, means that your ancestors have been in Italy since the Roman times and the autosomals of your original L3 ancestor are almost gone. I wish I knew what exactly it means to be L3 in terms of physical and mental traits, but I think science has not gone that far. So you're probably left with more questions than answers from all these tests.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't mean to be difficult or offensive in any way, but I really don't understand your point here...

    23andme uses ALL the publicly available autosomal research data sets for its analysis; that means it uses the HGDP data set, but it uses many others as well, including the many other Tuscan data sets, as just one example. In addition, it uses the data of all of its members with four grandparents from Italy, by region. So, it has the data of people with ancestry from southern Italy, Liguria, the Veneto and on and on as part of its data base.

    The fact that it is continually adding to its data base as more people submit their samples is the reason that the results keep changing...as more people add their data, the results become more and more precise. Of course, lots of data can only do so much...the algorithm has to be good as well. If you haven't yet looked at it, you should read the White Paper where the 23andme scientists explain it...it's very impressive I think...no one else is doing anything like it...

    As to your comment about Gedmatch, I also find that confusing. Gedmatch has provided versions of calculators created by a number of hobbyists, including Dienekes. The hobbyists differ in the number of publicly available data sets that they use. To my knowledge, Dienekes is the only one who uses all of the publicly available autosomal data sets for Italians, and, in addition, like 23andme, he has access to the autosomal data of Italians from areas that have not been sampled in research studies. Then, of course, it all depends on whether you trust the objectivity and the competence of these analysts. I don't trust some of their results at all.

    In terms of the other tools available at gedmatch, yes, people can compare themselves to other people who have made their data available, etc. However, whether most people who are using these tools have any idea what they're doing, or how to interpret the results...well, let's say that I am highly skeptical, and leave it at that.
    Pardon? , yes it uses only those stated, it does not use ftdna, while gedmatch does, it does not use ancestry, which gedmatch does. it uses only what it states.

    what this below mean from 23andme ancestry composition?

    Ancestry Composition tells you what percent of your DNA comes from each of 31 populations worldwide.
    The analysis includes DNA you received from all of your ancestors, on both sides of your family.
    The results reflect where your ancestors lived 500 years ago, before ocean-crossing ships and airplanes came on the scene.



    Italian
    The peninsula of Italy is home to a genetic legacy not only of the Roman Empire,
    but also of groups from both northern Europe and the eastern Mediterranean
    that occupied Italy at various points in its history.

    Population Source Sample Size
    Italy 23andMe 556
    Italy 1000 Genomes 98
    North Italian HGDP 13
    Tuscan HGDP 8
    hide details




    French & German
    Connected to the British Isles, Scandinavia, southern Europe and eastern Europe,
    France and Germany have seen myriad peoples come and go over the last ten thousand years.
    Genetically and geographically the French and Germans are at the heart of Europe.


    Population Source Sample Size
    Germany 23andMe 367
    Netherlands 23andMe 207
    France 23andMe 200
    Switzerland 23andMe 87
    Belgium 23andMe 80
    Austria 23andMe 54
    France HGDP 29
    hide details


    I agree it adds to its data , but uses only these numbers above as listed on its site.....yes it adds numbers , like switzerland went from 77 in November 2013 to 87 now

    Where does it say it uses more that what is noted on its site?

    yes Gedmatch uses admixture settings created by dodecad, eurogenes, MdLP etc ( dodecad only had 5 north-italian samples ) and adds the numbers from every genetic testing company of the people that join Gedmatch. it will add 23andme, ftdna, ancestry , genomes etc and then uses their formula from the selected creator,

    example, say you choose Eurogenes K13 ........so while eurogenes might have 50 north-italian in their data for their initial test, gedmatch will add all the other north-italian data from every other testing company into the mix and use the eurogenes formula to give you a result.............so you answer will not be from 50 NI, but many many more.

    Using far more people from different testing companies, which is why, gedmatch gives me 5 times more matches , than ftdna and 23andme combined. 5 times more matches means more people's data is used to determine the final result

    BTW, dienekes which is dodecad uses only 5 north-italian samples as i tried to enter my data numbers ( and I qualify) and was told its closed and is set as 5 in number
    Last edited by Sile; 05-03-14 at 19:24.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    I was going to say the same thing but refrained since some people take it the wrong way. An African mtdna and no autosomal dna from Africa, means that your ancestors have been in Italy since the Roman times and the autosomals of your original L3 ancestor are almost gone. I wish I knew what exactly it means to be L3 in terms of physical and mental traits, but I think science has not gone that far. So you're probably left with more questions than answers from all these tests.
    Doug does not say, her marker was in Italy that long ago ( from Roman times ), but says her marker was in Europe that long ago.
    Her family could have only arrived in Italy from Ukraine, as an example, only 300 years ago, or france or belgium

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    mtDna L3f is a very fascinating marker, I have read many of the professional papers on this marker recently and its origins vary greatly, a lot of times its even called Eurasian or even Pannonian.
    I think a person such a MACIANO can clear up this marker for us after deciphering the many many papers on it by these genetic scholars
    I read somewhere about L3 Eurasian origin theory.. or just asian origin sometimes..I found also this http://racialreality.blogspot.it/201...t-african.html
    Is Maciano going to post here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I have 2 accounts in gedmatch ,
    1 - an ftDna account which took 1 day to load, and a
    2- 23andme account which took 4 days to load

    I guess you need to wait
    I loaded my data 1 month ago :/

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    Quote Originally Posted by fla88 View Post
    I loaded my data 1 month ago :/
    email
    John Olson , he is 1 of 2 that run Gedmatch

    let me know if you cannot find his email.........he has always replied to me inside 48 hours


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    Quote Originally Posted by fla88 View Post
    I read somewhere about L3 Eurasian origin theory.. or just asian origin sometimes..I found also this http://racialreality.blogspot.it/201...t-african.html
    Is Maciano going to post here?
    Maciano runs this site

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    I was going to say the same thing but refrained since some people take it the wrong way. An African mtdna and no autosomal dna from Africa, means that your ancestors have been in Italy since the Roman times and the autosomals of your original L3 ancestor are almost gone. I wish I knew what exactly it means to be L3 in terms of physical and mental traits, but I think science has not gone that far. So you're probably left with more questions than answers from all these tests.
    it affects physical and mental traits? O_O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    email
    John Olson , he is 1 or 2 that run Gedmatch

    let me know if you cannot find his email.........he has always replied to me inside 48 hours


    If you are still experiencing issues after having read the FAQ, please contact us at [email protected]. Please remember we're just a couple of overworked volunteers, and we may not be able to respond to your query in a timely fashion.

    Ok thanks, I'll try to contact him :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by fla88 View Post
    it affects physical and mental traits? O_O
    it certainly affects something in the body, but nobody knows what yet (to my knowledge). Do you like hipop, watermelon and chicken? (joke)

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    it certainly affects something in the body, but nobody knows what yet (to my knowledge). Do you like hipop, watermelon and chicken? (joke)
    lol I haven't African admixture as far as I know.. I feel ok..I mean, normal lol

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    A slight possibility is that mtdna L might be paleolithic in the Ligurian coast (40000 BC). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimaldi_Man.

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    Very interesting possibilities...
    I've also read that most of Ligurians allied with Carthaginians against the Romans

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    Quote Originally Posted by fla88 View Post
    Very interesting possibilities...
    I've also read that most of Ligurians allied with Carthaginians against the Romans

    True ...a very bad decision as things turned out. However, mtDNA can only be passed by women. I doubt that the Carthaginians would have made very many of their own women trudge over the Alps on campaign. Even most of the troops were either Spaniards or men from Gaul.

    Since you don't seem to have been turned off from this site, I just want to clear up what are, in my opinion, some incorrect assertions that have been made on this thread.

    Neither Doug McDonald nor anyone else can tell you when your particular branch of mtDNA "L" arrived in Italy or Europe as the case may be. If you were very lucky indeed, and some geneticist found it in some archaeologically datable area, and then some much more detailed analysis of it was done, you might get a reasonably accurate idea.

    Absent that kind of data, one way to get something of a handle on the more reasonable speculations is to look at the date assigned to your particular mutation. Now, something may be published tomorrow about mutation rates for mtDNA which would change all this, but until then, I think the best source for dating for mtDNA is Doron Behar's A Copernican Reassessment of the Human Mitochondrial DNA Tree from its Root.

    It can be found here:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3322232/

    The ages by mtdna mutation can be found in the Supplement. On page 30 of the supplement I found your particular mtDNA clade. It is dated to 11,358 years ago with a Standard Deviation of 3274.

    That puts it right around the pre-Neolithic or Neolithic. Many mtDNA lineages expanded around that time, and these expansions are probably related to the agricultural revolution.

    Given that the agricultural revolution didn't reach East Africa until quite a bit later, I think it's probably a good guess that the mutation did not occur there, but rather might have occurred in the Near East or North Africa at that time.

    Now, there are many possibilities for when the various "L" lineages might have arrived:

    During the latter part of the Mesolithic.

    During the Neolithic with the Cardial peoples who first brought agriculture to the Ligurian coast.

    Later Neolithic peoples from LBK derived groups.

    Bronze Age people by way of Greek colonists, although the most that I can find for Genova is a small trading post. Of course, they had a much bigger presence, an actual colony, in Massalia, and as you know the border there in western Liguria/Provence has always been very fluid, and people could have migrated down the coast.

    Then there is the possibility that a slave, or wife, for that matter, from the Near East or North Africa brought it to Liguria during the Roman era. I think this is slightly less likely because as you also know this was hardly a place that was suitable for the latifundia system. A house slave might have brought it, of course, and have had a number of very healthy and lucky descendents.

    The early Middle Ages, when Saracens from Spain settled the area from Provence all the way into the Alps of Switzerland, is also a possibility, especially given that they were not just raiders...there are actually some attested settlements.

    In the later Middle Ages Genova played an extremely important role in the Crusades, as you know. Eastern rite Christian women might have been brought home as wives, Muslim women in bondage etc. Also, the Knights of St. John, as well as battling the infidel in the Mediterranean, engaged in a very profitable slave trade of their own, and a slave woman from North Africa might have wound up in Liguria.

    So, you're spoilt for choice here...take your pick.

    Just a word about all the studies thrown against the wall on this thread to see what would stick. Not all studies are equal. Just as an example, two studies on Italian DNA were bandied about, Brisighelli et al and Boattini et al. There is no comparison in terms of quality in my opinion. The university group that produced the Brisighelli paper is notoriously sloppy in its work, as was proved once again when they had to revise the paper long after publication (you might well ask what peer review is supposed to be about) and aeons behind the times in terms of their methodology. (the level of resolution is shamefully low, and they are actually, in an era where others are using 500,000 snps to do autosomal analysis, they are using a few AIMS!) Boattini et al is a level above, in terms of resolution, but also in terms of their sampling technique. Every researcher of Italian DNA should use it, in my opinion. So, each study has to be evaluated for its reliability, and not for whether it supports or doesn't support any pet theory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    So, you're spoilt for choice here...take your pick.

    Just a word about all the studies thrown against the wall on this thread to see what would stick. Not all studies are equal. Just as an example, two studies on Italian DNA were bandied about, Brisighelli et al and Boattini et al. There is no comparison in terms of quality in my opinion. The university group that produced the Brisighelli paper is notoriously sloppy in its work, as was proved once again when they had to revise the paper long after publication (you might well ask what peer review is supposed to be about) and aeons behind the times in terms of their methodology. (the level of resolution is shamefully low, and they are actually, in an era where others are using 500,000 snps to do autosomal analysis, they are using a few AIMS!) Boattini et al is a level above, in terms of resolution, but also in terms of their sampling technique. Every researcher of Italian DNA should use it, in my opinion. So, each study has to be evaluated for its reliability, and not for whether it supports or doesn't support any pet theory.
    I agree with you on the quality of papers, and I find it astonishing that the Spanish and Italian testers from the Uni of Oxford, England has again withdrawn their Brisighelli paper after PLOS people failed to make all the changes.
    But the Boattini paper lacks some elements, for one, the lack of ydna testing from Aviano, Friuli when mtdna was tested there and the lack of any testing from the Trentino and alto-adige areas.......we have to rely on Cioa 2013 two test papers for any information on these areas ...............and those papers showed some "exotic" markers which IMO, Boattini would have failed to "fit" in their paper.

    As for Fla88, BGA and 23andme has noted her 100% European, so her mothers, mothers, mothers etc etc would have been somewhere in Europe from over 2000 years ago. And yes her line could have been a Greek descent from the greek town of Marseilles or others in the area...........we will never know.

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    Thank you all for your comments.. there are all plausible options and it's not easy to pick one :)
    Is there any test that can help you discover more about mtDNA?

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    Boattini's study found ZERO mtDNA L anywhere in Italy.
    Last edited by Vallicanus; 30-03-14 at 17:22.

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    Wrong map under many aspects. Some correction for Italy.

    Italy, Campania
    0.32% L
    Italy, Apula-Calabria 0% L
    Italy, Piedmont 0% L

    Source Ottoni et al. 2011

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    L3 mtDna accompanied E yDna. y Dna Haplogroups C, I, G and E were in Europe before Ria and R1b. When Rib conquered France and Spain these indigenous Europeans I, G, and E either escaped to the mountainous areas or towards the Mediterranean Coasts. Your ancestors were from mountains so you could be from those ancient mountain refugees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Boattini's study found ZERO mtDNA L anywhere in Italy.
    That's true. Indeed they have not found a single L haplotype in about 865 samples. Maciamo should add that to the map.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Boattini's study found ZERO mtDNA L anywhere in Italy.
    I'm the only one then :/

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    Quote Originally Posted by fla88 View Post
    what's wrong with L mtDNA anyway?
    There's nothing wrong with haplogroup L if you are of African decent.

    However, for YOU, haplogroup L is a mismatch in several ways such as...

    1 It does not match your autosomal DNA!
    2 It does not match your physical appearance!
    3 It does not match your nationality!
    4 It does not match your genealogy!
    5 It does not match your race!

    It bothers me to read about a good looking White woman with 99 to 100% European autosomal DNA being labeled with an alien mt haplogroup to which there is NO explanation for. My opinion is that there should be a statute of limitations on alien mt DNA that does not match at all, (like 0%) the autosomal DNA of that person.

    It cases like this that reinforce my opposition to interracial unions. more specifically, the assimilation of the half non-White children who are of the same gender of the non-White parent.

    Sorry for the rant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JackBlack View Post
    There's nothing wrong with haplogroup L if you are of African decent.

    However, for YOU, haplogroup L is a mismatch in several ways such as...

    1 It does not match your autosomal DNA!
    2 It does not match your physical appearance!
    3 It does not match your nationality!
    4 It does not match your genealogy!
    5 It does not match your race!

    It bothers me to read about a good looking White woman with 99 to 100% European autosomal DNA being labeled with an alien mt haplogroup to which there is NO explanation for. My opinion is that there should be a statute of limitations on alien mt DNA that does not match at all, (like 0%) the autosomal DNA of that person.

    It cases like this that reinforce my opposition to interracial unions. more specifically, the assimilation of the half non-White children who are of the same gender of the non-White parent.

    Sorry for the rant.
    Sorry, but there's no excuse for racist ideology or racist rants.

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