Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 147

Thread: Y-DNA of Sumerians?

  1. #26
    Emperor Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    10-04-13
    Posts
    2,121
    Points
    4,787
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,787, Level: 20
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 263
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Italy



    All R1a stems from the Russian plains just north of the Caspian Sea in my opinion, then some of it re-entered the Iranian plateau and Central Asia; think of the indo-European homeland as the home of pretty much all R.

  2. #27
    Emperor Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    10-04-13
    Posts
    2,121
    Points
    4,787
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,787, Level: 20
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 263
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Italy



    I would put the home of R somewhere in central or western Kazhakstan. OUT of the Middle East, a tad north of the Caspian Sea, westernmost Kazakhstan-ish region.

  3. #28
    Emperor Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    10-04-13
    Posts
    2,121
    Points
    4,787
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,787, Level: 20
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 263
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Italy



    From here some would head west into Europe, other branches south and east, back into Iran for example and most notably Central Asia (India,Afghanistan, the Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan etc. region).

  4. #29
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    All R1a stems from the Russian plains just north of the Caspian Sea in my opinion, then some of it re-entered the Iranian plateau and Central Asia; think of the indo-European homeland as the home of pretty much all R.
    Impossible. It's a well known fact that subclades of R1a* hg. in West Asia are older than in Europe. R1a entered Western-Eastern Europe from West Asia, like it's big brother hg. R1b did.

  5. #30
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Ike's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-12-10
    Posts
    1,128
    Points
    4,720
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,720, Level: 20
    Level completed: 18%, Points required for next Level: 330
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Yugoslavia



    Even if it's true that R1a emerged in Asia, it could be that it passed between Caspian and Black sea, settled there, populated area, and only later started spreading to East and South Europe, Iran, and India.
    All scenarios are possible, so don't be so persuasive.

  6. #31
    Emperor Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    10-04-13
    Posts
    2,121
    Points
    4,787
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,787, Level: 20
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 263
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Italy



    Can we get more opinions on this matter? I see a debate on its way within the next 24-72 hours lol

  7. #32
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    Even if it's true that R1a emerged in Asia, it could be that it passed between Caspian and Black sea, settled there, populated area, and only later started spreading to East and South Europe, Iran, and India.
    All scenarios are possible, so don't be so persuasive.
    What you're claiming is indeed possible. But If R1a came to Eastern Europe directly from the Steppes it should took a passage between the Caspian Sea and the Ural Mountais. But in north of the Caspian Sea area they didn't find any old subclades of R1a. And I don't think that R1a arrived in Russia through the Ural Mountais, because Ural Mountains are not really that high but it's very cold there. It could serve like a natural barrier, like Hindu Kush or Himalaya against such a massive migration wave. Also, I don't think R1a arrived in West Asia via the Caucasus either, because there's not so much R1a in the Caucasus and the Caucasus mountains are very high and rough. And how do you explain that R1a in Western Europe is older than R1a in Eastern Europe if R1a entered Europe from (Eur)Asian Steppes? The only explanations must be the CentralAsian - Iranian Plateau corridor that served as a natural passage of R1a like it happened with R1b. And yet, with your theory it's still possible that the Sumerians belonged partly to R1a! R1a in West Asia is maybe older than the Sumerians.
    But I don't understand where some fellas get wicked ideas that R1a is from Eastern Europe? There's absolutely no indication for it. No facts, no archaeological proves, no R1a lineages that support this, nothing…

  8. #33
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Ike's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-12-10
    Posts
    1,128
    Points
    4,720
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,720, Level: 20
    Level completed: 18%, Points required for next Level: 330
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Yugoslavia



    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    What you're claiming is indeed possible.
    Possible just as any other option. As for now, this is the theory that suits well with the other data.
    http://www.eupedia.com/images/conten...ration_map.jpg

    But If R1a came to Eastern Europe directly from the Steppes it should took a passage between the Caspian Sea and the Ural Mountais. But in north of the Caspian Sea area they didn't find any old subclades of R1a.
    Not finding any doesn't mean that there were none 10 thousand years ago. How many skeletons of that age were tested?

    And I don't think that R1a arrived in Russia through the Ural Mountais, because Ural Mountains are not really that high but it's very cold there. It could serve like a natural barrier, like Hindu Kush or Himalaya against such a massive migration wave. Also, I don't think R1a arrived in West Asia via the Caucasus either, because there's not so much R1a in the Caucasus and the Caucasus mountains are very high and rough.
    Not that high, there are passages. FRIW they could have canoed by the shore :)

    And how do you explain that R1a in Western Europe is older than R1a in Eastern Europe if R1a entered Europe from (Eur)Asian Steppes?
    Is and was are two different things. You can't make definite theories about what the situation was before, just by using current distributions. They can be used as indication for archaeologists where to search.

  9. #34
    Emperor Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    10-04-13
    Posts
    2,121
    Points
    4,787
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,787, Level: 20
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 263
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Italy



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    That map is excellent; why is R1a predominantly only found in eastern Iran at 35%; unlike the opposite side of Iran (the west) that has a total combination 40% J (30% J2 and 10% J1) and very little R1a. Why is there very little R1a in the Caucasus region (inability to cross from Russian plains towards Caucasus possibly), this map explains it all. It originated somewhere a tad north of the Caspian Sea in more of the Russia/Kazakhstan region; not peninsular Iran., it would subsequently have spread from its origin location, the Sumerians were not R1a folk, in my opinion.

  10. #35
    Emperor Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    10-04-13
    Posts
    2,121
    Points
    4,787
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,787, Level: 20
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 263
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Italy



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    R1a first migrated from the plains of Central Asia south wards towards northeastern Iran (indo-Iranians) and not the other way around; same for the indo-Aryan's and the branches found across Uzbekistan,Tajikistan,Afghanistan,Turkmenistan,Pak istan, Nepal etc. they arrived there more recently. This puts it's origin farther to the east of "north of the Caucasus mountains", possibly extreme western Kazakhstan just north and east of the Caspian Sea.

  11. #36
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-02-10
    Posts
    132
    Points
    9,602
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,602, Level: 29
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 348
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a1a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c1

    Ethnic group
    Appalachian American
    Country: USA - West Virginia




  12. #37
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    Possible just as any other option. As for now, this is the theory that suits well with the other data.
    http://www.eupedia.com/images/conten...ration_map.jpg

    This is only a VERY speculative map about R1a1a1 and NOT about R1a*. the R1a* to which I do belong and which we can find in the Iranian Plateau predates any R1a1a1...

  13. #38
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by elghund View Post
    This map is about R1a1a1 and not about R1a*!

  14. #39
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    That map is excellent; why is R1a predominantly only found in eastern Iran at 35%; unlike the opposite side of Iran (the west) that has a total combination 40% J (30% J2 and 10% J1) and very little R1a. Why is there very little R1a in the Caucasus region (inability to cross from Russian plains towards Caucasus possibly), this map explains it all. It originated somewhere a tad north of the Caspian Sea in more of the Russia/Kazakhstan region; not peninsular Iran., it would subsequently have spread from its origin location, the Sumerians were not R1a folk, in my opinion.
    B*llcrap. Kurds (the Medes) and Persians have the same amount of Gedrosia component in them, around 30%. that means that ancient Iranic people had at least 30% of Gedrosia component in them. Gedrosia is a West Asian component and native to the Iranian Plateau.

  15. #40
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Once again, the R1a* hg. to which I do belong is older than R1a1a1 (M17). My haplogorup R1a* PREDATES 'M17'. And i'm native to the Zagros Mountains/the Iranian Plateau. How do you guys explain this???

  16. #41
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    This map is about R1a* , much older than R1a1a1 (M17) !

  17. #42
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-02-10
    Posts
    132
    Points
    9,602
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,602, Level: 29
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 348
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a1a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c1

    Ethnic group
    Appalachian American
    Country: USA - West Virginia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    This map of R1a* shows R1a* being dispersed across Britain, Italy, Greece, Anatolia, the Taurus and Zagros Mountains, the Iranian Plateau, the United Arab Emirate and Oman. The area between the Zagros Mountains and the Iranian Plateau look good for the origin. Has anyone looked at the STR diversity of R1a*?

  18. #43
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    The hg. R1a* to which I do belong is NOT even M17. I'm R1a: L62+, L63+, SRY10831.2-, M17- !!!! http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2013/1...zidi-kurd.html . I'm sure that the Sumerians that came from the Kurdish mountains in West Asia and migrated into the Mesopotamia, Indus Valley and Arabia, belonged to R1a* and J2a...

  19. #44
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Ike's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-12-10
    Posts
    1,128
    Points
    4,720
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,720, Level: 20
    Level completed: 18%, Points required for next Level: 330
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Yugoslavia



    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    This is only a VERY speculative map about R1a1a1 and NOT about R1a*. the R1a* to which I do belong and which we can find in the Iranian Plateau predates any R1a1a1...
    I agree that is speculative, but that consequently makes your assumptions speculative².

    While making that map, Maciamo decided to draw the start line at M417, which was probably for the lack of indicators where the ancestors could have been in a time before that. It is obvious that R1a emerged somewhere between Hg P (it's parent Hg) and M417 (it's descendant Hg). Hg P peaks around China today, but it doesn't mean it emerged there. Wiki says that Hg P is distributed commonly in Europe, Central Asia, North-East Asia, North America, South America, and possible region of origin os South-Central Asia, while for R417 we're guessing Ukraine.

    1. It could be that P emerged in Mesopotamia, that R emerged at Iranian plateau, that R1b went to Europe through Anatolia, but R1a went around Caspian sea. R1a found IE speaking aliens at Pontic-Caspian steppe. Then was a back-migration of R1a towards Iran (and India) Majority of Iranian R1a are descendants of those IE speaking M417>Z93, but there is still a small sample (like <3 %) of old R1a/R1b in Iran which hadn't move anywhere. Note that I'm not claiming that it really happened like this.

    2. "Historically, no other part of Europe was invaded a higher number of times by steppe peoples than the Balkans. Chronologically, the first R1a invaders came with the westward expansion of the Yamna culture (from 4200 BCE), a succession of steppe migrations that lasted about 2000 years. Then came the Thracians (1500 BCE), followed by the Illyrians (around 1200 BCE), the Huns and the Alans (400 CE), the Avars, the Bulgars and the Serbs (all around 600 CE), and the Magyars (900 CE), among others. These peoples originated from different parts of the Eurasian steppes, anywhere between Eastern Europe and Central Asia, which is why such high STR diversity is found within Balkanic R1a nowadays. It is not yet possible to determine the ethnic origin for each variety of R1a, apart from the fact that about any R1a is associated with tribes from Eurasian steppe at one point in history."

    Klysov uses data like this to place R1a origin at Balkans in like 9000 BC, but we all know it's very stretched theory, so we don't take it so serious.

  20. #45
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    17-08-12
    Posts
    85
    Points
    4,882
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,882, Level: 20
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 168
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-Celtic
    Country: United States



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Could the R1a in Mesapotamia be the remnants of the Mittani rulers?

  21. #46
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by skaheen15 View Post
    Could the R1a in Mesapotamia be the remnants of the Mittani rulers?
    Not only Mittani (Matiene), but also Gutians, Kassites, Parthians, Medes etc. All those people were known as Umman Manda = Aryans (speakers of an Iranic / proto-Kurdic language) of the Near East. They lived in the Kurdish Mountains. But the thing is that the Sumerians do predate the Umman Manda. I'm sure that the Sumerians were actually the main ancestors of the Umman Manda (proto-Kurdic peoples). Notice that right after when Sumerians disappeard, the name of Umman Manda appears in the northern mountanious parts of the Near East. Sumerians that lived in Zagros Mountains became later Umman Manda. Sumerians that migrated into Arabia were later assimilated by the Semites..

  22. #47
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    17-08-12
    Posts
    85
    Points
    4,882
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,882, Level: 20
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 168
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-Celtic
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    I'm sure that the Sumerians were actually the main ancestors of the Umman Manda (proto-Kurdic peoples).
    You sure about that? You don't think that the Sumerians were basically absorbed by the later Mesopotamian populations?
    They did live in a kind of symbiosis with the Akkadians, in a bi-lingual society, for centuries before finally disappearing.
    I'm no expert on the Sumerians, but I don't see how they could be ancestral to the Iranic peoples.

  23. #48
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    17-08-12
    Posts
    85
    Points
    4,882
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,882, Level: 20
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 168
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-Celtic
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    the Sumerians were not R1a folk, in my opinion.
    Agreed, wouldn't make much sense. I've always suspected J2 or maybe T.

  24. #49
    Emperor Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    10-04-13
    Posts
    2,121
    Points
    4,787
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,787, Level: 20
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 263
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Italy



    I agree with the Parthians being R1a but the Medes where iranic; Javan (Ionian Greeks) in the bible where classified with the Medes. Certainly an indo-Iranian people such as Parthians would explain the definitive and confirmed presence of R1a in eastern Iran. But then you make an error when trying to associate the general bulk of Kurds with these indo-Iranians, which is false, I believe they would have been mre similar (Kurds) to Medes for example. And then you go on to associate these indo-Europeans with the early Sumerians, which I believe to be false, regardless of the fact that the sumerians where great inventors (invented the wheel, for example) I remain convinced that the Sumerians were not indo-Europeans, as of now. Now what haplogroups did they belong to? Very difficult to tell; instinct says J1 , but this can't be because it apparently wasn't in the area at the time (although I personally still believe it's a possibility) probably weren't J2, maybe T, basal F branches, G? Who knows.

  25. #50
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Dale Cooper's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Location
    Zadar, (Dalmatia) Croatia
    Posts
    49
    Points
    2,718
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,718, Level: 14
    Level completed: 90%, Points required for next Level: 32
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b

    Ethnic group
    Croatian
    Country: Croatia



    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    As for the Dravidians, they are in no way characterized by y-DNA L (10%) having much more y-DNA H (35% on average). R1a is found in 50% of Indian males to most peoples surprise, with a peak towards the north of course where the indo-Aryan's would have settled.
    This is true, also modern day Gypsies troughout Europe are mainly carriers of Y-DNA haplogroup H, isn't that right? Gypsies came from India/Pakistan area, and I would say they are descendants of Dravidians, ofcourse mixed in racial terms like almost all Indians today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Nobody can know at present to which haplogroups the Sumerians belonged without ancient Y-DNA tests. The population of Mesopotamia underwent perhaps more changes due to wars, conquests, diseases, etc. than almost any other population on Earth in the last 6000 years. Semitic people are mostly associated with haplogroups E-M123 and J1-P58. Nowadays J1-P58 is the most frequent haplogroup in southern Iraq, but I seriously doubt that it was present at all at the time of ancient Sumer.

    A few Sumerian mtDNA samples have been tested and include haplogroups L2a1, R, H14a, J1a1 and U4. The presence of hg L is surely a sign that E1b1b (probably E-M123) was already present among ancient Sumerians. Other Neolithic lineages like G, J2, R1b(xL23) and T are also likely. The presence of mtDNA U4 is, I believe, a sign that ancient Sumerians carried some R1 paternal lineages. It's unlikely that R1a had penetrated in Mesopotamia so early, so I would rather go for older subclades of R1b.
    I would agree with this the most, out of all what has been written here about Sumerians :)

Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •