Y-DNA of Sumerians?

This map is about R1a* , much older than R1a1a1 (M17) !
w0n7.jpg
 
This map of R1a* shows R1a* being dispersed across Britain, Italy, Greece, Anatolia, the Taurus and Zagros Mountains, the Iranian Plateau, the United Arab Emirate and Oman. The area between the Zagros Mountains and the Iranian Plateau look good for the origin. Has anyone looked at the STR diversity of R1a*?
 
Goga said:
This is only a VERY speculative map about R1a1a1 and NOT about R1a*. the R1a* to which I do belong and which we can find in the Iranian Plateau predates any R1a1a1...
Click to expand...

I agree that is speculative, but that consequently makes your assumptions speculative².

While making that map, Maciamo decided to draw the start line at M417, which was probably for the lack of indicators where the ancestors could have been in a time before that. It is obvious that R1a emerged somewhere between Hg P (it's parent Hg) and M417 (it's descendant Hg). Hg P peaks around China today, but it doesn't mean it emerged there. Wiki says that Hg P is distributed commonly in Europe, Central Asia, North-East Asia, North America, South America, and possible region of origin os South-Central Asia, while for R417 we're guessing Ukraine.

1. It could be that P emerged in Mesopotamia, that R emerged at Iranian plateau, that R1b went to Europe through Anatolia, but R1a went around Caspian sea. R1a found IE speaking aliens at Pontic-Caspian steppe. Then was a back-migration of R1a towards Iran (and India) Majority of Iranian R1a are descendants of those IE speaking M417>Z93, but there is still a small sample (like <3 %) of old R1a/R1b in Iran which hadn't move anywhere. Note that I'm not claiming that it really happened like this.

2. "Historically, no other part of Europe was invaded a higher number of times by steppe peoples than the Balkans. Chronologically, the first R1a invaders came with the westward expansion of the Yamna culture (from 4200 BCE), a succession of steppe migrations that lasted about 2000 years. Then came the Thracians (1500 BCE), followed by the Illyrians (around 1200 BCE), the Huns and the Alans (400 CE), the Avars, the Bulgars and the Serbs (all around 600 CE), and the Magyars (900 CE), among others. These peoples originated from different parts of the Eurasian steppes, anywhere between Eastern Europe and Central Asia, which is why such high STR diversity is found within Balkanic R1a nowadays. It is not yet possible to determine the ethnic origin for each variety of R1a, apart from the fact that about any R1a is associated with tribes from Eurasian steppe at one point in history."

Klysov uses data like this to place R1a origin at Balkans in like 9000 BC, but we all know it's very stretched theory, so we don't take it so serious.
 
Could the R1a in Mesapotamia be the remnants of the Mittani rulers?
 
skaheen15 said:
Could the R1a in Mesapotamia be the remnants of the Mittani rulers?
Click to expand...
Not only Mittani (Matiene), but also Gutians, Kassites, Parthians, Medes etc. All those people were known as Umman Manda = Aryans (speakers of an Iranic / proto-Kurdic language) of the Near East. They lived in the Kurdish Mountains. But the thing is that the Sumerians do predate the Umman Manda. I'm sure that the Sumerians were actually the main ancestors of the Umman Manda (proto-Kurdic peoples). Notice that right after when Sumerians disappeard, the name of Umman Manda appears in the northern mountanious parts of the Near East. Sumerians that lived in Zagros Mountains became later Umman Manda. Sumerians that migrated into Arabia were later assimilated by the Semites..
 
Goga said:
I'm sure that the Sumerians were actually the main ancestors of the Umman Manda (proto-Kurdic peoples).
Click to expand...

You sure about that? You don't think that the Sumerians were basically absorbed by the later Mesopotamian populations?
They did live in a kind of symbiosis with the Akkadians, in a bi-lingual society, for centuries before finally disappearing.
I'm no expert on the Sumerians, but I don't see how they could be ancestral to the Iranic peoples.
 
I agree with the Parthians being R1a but the Medes where iranic; Javan (Ionian Greeks) in the bible where classified with the Medes. Certainly an indo-Iranian people such as Parthians would explain the definitive and confirmed presence of R1a in eastern Iran. But then you make an error when trying to associate the general bulk of Kurds with these indo-Iranians, which is false, I believe they would have been mre similar (Kurds) to Medes for example. And then you go on to associate these indo-Europeans with the early Sumerians, which I believe to be false, regardless of the fact that the sumerians where great inventors (invented the wheel, for example) I remain convinced that the Sumerians were not indo-Europeans, as of now. Now what haplogroups did they belong to? Very difficult to tell; instinct says J1 , but this can't be because it apparently wasn't in the area at the time (although I personally still believe it's a possibility) probably weren't J2, maybe T, basal F branches, G? Who knows.
 
adamo said:
As for the Dravidians, they are in no way characterized by y-DNA L (10%) having much more y-DNA H (35% on average). R1a is found in 50% of Indian males to most peoples surprise, with a peak towards the north of course where the indo-Aryan's would have settled.
Click to expand...

This is true, also modern day Gypsies troughout Europe are mainly carriers of Y-DNA haplogroup H, isn't that right? Gypsies came from India/Pakistan area, and I would say they are descendants of Dravidians, ofcourse mixed in racial terms like almost all Indians today.

Maciamo said:
Nobody can know at present to which haplogroups the Sumerians belonged without ancient Y-DNA tests. The population of Mesopotamia underwent perhaps more changes due to wars, conquests, diseases, etc. than almost any other population on Earth in the last 6000 years. Semitic people are mostly associated with haplogroups E-M123 and J1-P58. Nowadays J1-P58 is the most frequent haplogroup in southern Iraq, but I seriously doubt that it was present at all at the time of ancient Sumer.

A few Sumerian mtDNA samples have been tested and include haplogroups L2a1, R, H14a, J1a1 and U4. The presence of hg L is surely a sign that E1b1b (probably E-M123) was already present among ancient Sumerians. Other Neolithic lineages like G, J2, R1b(xL23) and T are also likely. The presence of mtDNA U4 is, I believe, a sign that ancient Sumerians carried some R1 paternal lineages. It's unlikely that R1a had penetrated in Mesopotamia so early, so I would rather go for older subclades of R1b.
Click to expand...

I would agree with this the most, out of all what has been written here about Sumerians :)
 
Goga said:
Impossible. It's a well known fact that subclades of R1a* hg. in West Asia are older than in Europe. R1a entered Western-Eastern Europe from West Asia, like it's big brother hg. R1b did.
w0n7.jpg
Click to expand...


I really do not understand some things about this map, first of all, in which time would you place R1a (blue colored) on this map? And how is this connected than to IE people of Kurgan Cultures, like Yamna, Novodanilovka etc which were carriers of R1a and invaded Europe 4000-2500 BC (to the west) from present day Ukraine, southern european Russia and western-southern Russia?

I have to say that this map is very suspicious to me, at least until I get some explanation :)
 
Dale Cooper said:
I really do not understand some things about this map, first of all, in which time would you place R1a (blue colored) on this map? And how is this connected than to IE people of Kurgan Cultures, like Yamna, Novodanilovka etc which were carriers of R1a and invaded Europe 4000-2500 BC (to the west) from present day Ukraine, southern european Russia and western-southern Russia?

I have to say that this map is very suspicious to me, at least until I get some explanation :)
Click to expand...

I agree. I was very surprised when I saw this map here.
I can't find any logic to explain this.
 
Dale Cooper said:
I really do not understand some things about this map, first of all, in which time would you place R1a (blue colored) on this map? And how is this connected than to IE people of Kurgan Cultures, like Yamna, Novodanilovka etc which were carriers of R1a and invaded Europe 4000-2500 BC (to the west) from present day Ukraine, southern european Russia and western-southern Russia?

I have to say that this map is very suspicious to me, at least until I get some explanation :)
Click to expand...
What don't you understand my friend? http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2013/05/r1a-tree.html Here you can find the ages of mutations that belong to a blue colored line. As you can see I do only belong to SRY10831.2- !! So my mutation falls only inside the blue line. That mutation occurred about 7500 - 8000 years ago. At that time R1a* was already present in Kurdistan! Kurgan peoples belonged to a much later mutations, like Z283 . Z283 is between 6000 - 7000 years old . As you can see my mutation PREDATES Kurgan types by 500 - 1000 years . Also, Iranic peoples in Central Asia and Iranian Plateau are mostly Z93, and even Z93 is older than Z283. Kurgan types were SRY10831.2+ (plus) and I'm SRY10831.2- (min) (M17-)! SRY10831.2- (min) mutation is older than SRY10831.2+ (plus) !
SNP
age in years based on tree
age in years based on STR111 variability
M420
8000
8000
SRY10831.2
7798
7907
L664
4965
4375
Z645/Z647
6117
7294
Z283
5938
6751
M458
4625
3931
L260
3598
2411
CTS11962
4013
3069
L1029
4341
3078
Z280
5614
6050
Z92
4597
3996
CTS1211
5322
5381
P278
3719
2473
CTS3402
5046
4937
L366
3079
1038
L365
4095
2041
L1280
3281
2169
Z284
5063
4688
L448
4069
2857
CTS4179
3740
2212
L176
2956
1128
Z287/Z288
4908
4499
Z93
5989
6979
Z94
5795
6900
Z2121/Z2124
5322
5319
Z2122
4124
2457
Z2123
4781
3998
L657
4729
4131
Y7
3885
2197
 
adamo said:
I agree with the Parthians being R1a but the Medes where iranic; Javan (Ionian Greeks) in the bible where classified with the Medes.
Click to expand...
The Parthians, the Medes and Persians belonged to the same 'Aryan' race. They called themselves 'Aryans', and they were called by others 'Aryans'. The Medes were 'Western Iranians', the Persians were the 'Central Iranians' and Parthians were the 'Eastern Iranians'. Those peoples were descendants of the proto-Iranic Mitanni (Matiene, Gutians, Kassites). In turn Mitanni (Matiene, Gutians, Kassites) were descendants of the Sumerians. All those peoples were mostly J2a & R1a* (Caucasia & Gedrosia) folks ..
 
Goga said:
What don't you understand my friend? http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2013/05/r1a-tree.html Here you can find the ages of mutations that belong to a blue colored line. As you can see I do only belong to SRY10831.2- !! So my mutation falls only inside the blue line. That mutation occurred about 7500 - 8000 years ago. At that time R1a* was already present in Kurdistan! Kurgan peoples belonged to a much later mutations, like Z283 . Z283 is between 6000 - 7000 years old . As you can see my mutation PREDATES Kurgan types by 500 - 1000 years . Also, Iranic peoples in Central Asia and Iranian Plateau are mostly Z93, and even Z93 is older than Z283. Kurgan types were SRY10831.2+ (plus) and I'm SRY10831.2- (min) (M17-)! SRY10831.2- (min) mutation is older than SRY10831.2+ (plus) !
age in years based on treeage in years based on STR111 variability
M42080008000
SRY10831.277987907
L66449654375
Z645/Z64761177294
Z28359386751
M45846253931
L26035982411
CTS1196240133069
L102943413078
Z28056146050
Z9245973996
CTS121153225381
P27837192473
CTS340250464937
L36630791038
L36540952041
L128032812169
Z28450634688
L44840692857
CTS417937402212
L17629561128
Z287/Z28849084499
Z9359896979
Z9457956900
Z2121/Z212453225319
Z212241242457
Z212347813998
L65747294131
Y738852197
Click to expand...

But friend, what this map is showing would mean that R1a practically came from Middle East and Arabian peninsula? I would never suspect somethin like that, it's shocking to be honest if this is true :) Or did I misinterpreted the blue lines on that map, are they saying that R1a was "created" where? in Anatolia, or somewhere else? Or let me just ask you, where do you think R1a is created/occured for the first time as such? And also, before R1a, where do you think R1 occured first time? Thx
 
Dale Cooper said:
But friend, what this map is showing would mean that R1a practically came from Middle East and Arabian peninsula? I would never suspect somethin like that, it's shocking to be honest if this is true :) Or did I misinterpreted the blue lines on that map, are they saying that R1a was "created" where? in Anatolia, or somewhere else? Or let me just ask you, where do you think R1a is created/occured for the first time as such? And also, before R1a, where do you think R1 occured first time? Thx
Click to expand...
Original R1a* is NOT from Arabian Peninsula, mate! But most probably from the Iranian Plateau. That's why we can find R1a* from all sides of the Iranian Plateau. As we all know the ancestor of R1a* is R1*, and the ancestor of R1* is R*. R* is from Central Asia or the Iranian Plateau. R1a in Europe didn't fall from the sky, lol. It came from somewhere. Some say it came directly form Central Asia. But other say that R1* first evolved into R1a* and R1b* on the Iranian Plateau and then migrated into Europe. The second school makes more sense because in Iranian Plateau / Zagros Mountains we find older subclades of R1a* than those in Europe.

The first 'R*' was Asian, the first 'R2*' was Asian, the first 'R1*' was Asian, the first R1b* was Asian, and the first carriers of R1a* were like R1b* 'Asian' and not from Europe. I'm sure that like R1b* also original R1a* came from the Iranian Plateau! Why is it difficult to accept that also R1a* like all other related haplogroups of R1a* came from Asia, most likely from the Iranian Plateau?
 
Because those older subclades may have migrated more easily and rapidly from the plains of Russia towards eastern Iran due to the region's general vicinity to the R1a* origin point.
 
Hunter-gatherers that lived in the Russian Steppes before 'R' were most likely Mongoloid N or Q. Russians and other people in that region are still partly Mongoloid! I don't understand what you're saying, but all other 'R' (R1*, R1b*, R2*) came from Central Asia or the Iranian Plateau and NOT from the Russian plains. 'R*' itself was evolved out of 'P'. Why should R1a* be an exception? Doesn't make any sense to me, at all !!!
 
Goga said:
Original R1a* is NOT from Arabian Peninsula, mate! But most probably from the Iranian Plateau. That's why we can find R1a* from all sides of the Iranian Plateau. As we all know the ancestor of R1a* is R1*, and the ancestor of R1* is R*. R* is from Central Asia or the Iranian Plateau. R1a in Europe didn't fall from the sky, lol. It came from somewhere. Some say it came directly form Central Asia. But other say that R1* first evolved into R1a* and R1b* on the Iranian Plateau and then migrated into Europe. The second school makes more sense because in Iranian Plateau / Zagros Mountains we find older subclades of R1a* than those in Europe.

The first 'R*' was Asian, the first 'R2*' was Asian, the first 'R1*' was Asian, the first R1b* was Asian, and the first carriers of R1a* were like R1b* 'Asian' and not from Europe. I'm sure that like R1b* also original R1a* came from the Iranian Plateau! Why is it difficult to accept that also R1a* like all other related haplogroups of R1a* came from Asia, most likely from the Iranian Plateau?
Click to expand...

But I always thought (and I still have that opinion) that R1a came to Iran and Afghanistan (once Persia) - Iranian Plateau with IndoEuropean migration (so called Aryan branch) 2500-3000 BC, who founded Andronovo Culture, which will later emerge Persian civilization, also from that area of Andronovo culture (Iranian Plateau) they invaded northern India around 1750 BC...

So if someone would ask where is the homeland of R1a, well... I would say today eastern Ukraine, southern European Russian, and somewhat to east from southern european russia, or to be more precise I will show the map:

urheimat-slrd-map1.jpg


So in my opinion... R1a homeland is where stands PIE on the map :)

So you see, I don't have any problem to accept that R1 came from Asia, that is a fact, but I'm sure that R1a came from this border-line of Europe and Asia, from proto-indoeuropeans, I really don't believe that R1a came as R1a from Iranian Plateau, but R1a came to Iranian Plateau from eastern Ukraine, Southern european Russia...

It's one thing to talk about R1, but it's another thing to talk about R1a, and I strongly believe R1a was not present in area of today Iran and Afghanistan before it came from proto-IndoEuropean homeland shown on this map.

Also to support this what Im saying here, here is the map of R1a distribution, it perfectly fits with History events shown on first map I shown...

haplogroupR1a.JPG
 
These maps are misleading and they give you a very wrong image of the whole picture. First of all it's impossible that proto-indo Europeans came from Ukraine. This theory is destroyed and buried a long time ago. But then again it’s a different topic. And I spent hour on this issue on this forum, I’m not going to do it again.

Fact is that West Asian R1a* is older than R1a in Europe, you like it or not. R1a* to which I do belong came NOT from Europe, lol. This is true science and not a dream world. You're free to believe to whatever you want, even in Santa Clause, it's ok with me..
 
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