Y-DNA of Sumerians?

[Alan]

The Parthians, the Medes and Persians belonged to the same 'Aryan' race. They called themselves 'Aryans', and they were called by others 'Aryans'. The Medes were 'Western Iranians', the Persians were the 'Central Iranians' and Parthians were the 'Eastern Iranians'. Those peoples were descendants of the proto-Iranic Mitanni (Matiene, Gutians, Kassites). In turn Mitanni (Matiene, Gutians, Kassites) were descendants of the Sumerians. All those peoples were mostly J2a & R1a* (Caucasia & Gedrosia) folks ..

You are mixing things a little bit too much up again.

Sumerians are not known of which origin they are. There is still absolutely no prove for an Indo European origin of them.

Persians were not Central Iranian but Southwest and Parthians were not East Iranians. You are mixing science again too much with your assumptions.

The location of their homeland has not much to do with their origin. Parthians were basically Medes with more Scythian admixture. They started in North and Northeast Iran but spread rapidly all the way into Mesopotamia, Anatolia and Syria.

 

[Alan]

Hunter-gatherers that lived in the Russian Steppes before 'R' were most likely Mongoloid N or Q. Russians and other people in that region are still partly Mongoloid! I don't understand what you're saying, but all other 'R' (R1*, R1b*, R2*) came from Central Asia or the Iranian Plateau and NOT from the Russian plains. 'R*' itself was evolved out of 'P'. Why should R1a* be an exception? Doesn't make any sense to me, at all !!!

Slavs in general are the result of Balts crossing with Iranians. In Russian case you can add some Germanic into it.

Russians still are predominanlty West Eurasian with only some 3-4% East Eurasian admixture. Thats on the same level as Persians.

 

[Goga]

??? First of all I'm not saying that the Sumerians were Indo European, but I'm saying that the Sumerians were maybe related to proto-Indo Europeans. Also I'm not even sure if R1a* was part of PIEans, maybe it was hg. J2a that was PIEan. According to me the probabilty that proto-Indo Europeans were actually J2a folks, but once again that's a different topic. According to me the Sumerians were J2a* & R1a* folks. I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but Persians lived between the Medes and the Parthians. Parthians lived in the eastern parts of the Iranian plateau, the Medes lived in the western parts of the Iranian Plateau = Zagros Mountains / Kurdistan and Persians lived in the middle. Are you denying that?

 

[Goga]

But the thing is that Parthians spoke almost the same language as the Medes, a Western Iranian language, closely related with Kurdish language

 

[adamo]

No. The early proto-indo-Europeans of the PIE region where strictly y-DNA R1 and it's derivatives; not J2a.

 

[Ike]

These maps are misleading and they give you a very wrong image of the whole picture. First of all it's impossible that proto-indo Europeans came from Ukraine. This theory is destroyed and buried a long time ago. But then again it’s a different topic. And I spent hour on this issue on this forum, I’m not going to do it again.

Fact is that West Asian R1a* is older than R1a in Europe, you like it or not. R1a* to which I do belong came NOT from Europe, lol. This is true science and not a dream world. You're free to believe to whatever you want, even in Santa Clause, it's ok with me..

You still don't understand. Let's put it this way. Fact is that Afro-American's haplogroups are older the than ones of native Indians. Does that mean that black people were in America before Indians?

 

[matbir]

No. The early proto-indo-Europeans of the PIE region where strictly y-DNA R1 and it's derivatives; not J2a.

Impossible, R1a and R1b are too old for PIE, they are about 18000 years old while IE language family is about 6000 years old. In my opinion spread of IE is connected to R1a1a1b (S224) or maybe to R1a1a1 (M417).
Sumerians most likely ware mix of haplogroups found today around that area. Middle East was crossing of migration roads for millennia. I wouldn’t be surprised if they had J1, J2, G, T, R*, R1*, R1a, R1b, E, C, F*.

Interesting OT aroused about origin of R1a, I would gladly discuss this it in appropriate topic, but I haven’t time to start it, so I suggest moderators to move discussion about R1a to R1a section in order to continue debate.

 

[Goga]

You still don't understand. Let's put it this way. Fact is that Afro-American's haplogroups are older the than ones of native Indians. Does that mean that black people were in America before Indians?

No, you don't get it! haplogroups of Aframs you can also find inside Africa. mtDNA of Aframs is from Africa and very common in Africa. (Y-DNA of Aframs is mostly Europe, but that's again a different topic.) But there's no R1a* in Eastern Europe to my knowledge. R1a in West Asia/Kurdistan is older. FACT, you like it or not...

 

[Goga]

Impossible, R1a and R1b are too old for PIE, they are about 18000 years old while IE language family is about 6000 years old.

Exactly, this is what I'm telling them. R1a* is older than PIE language, but I believe that PIE is older than 6000 years. Sumerians and PIEans could have the same ancestors. PIE didn't came out of nowhere, they had also relatives, distant cousins, you know. R1a* is either from Central Asia or the Iranian Plateau, that's for sure...

 

[Ike]

Exactly, this is what I'm telling them. R1a* is older than PIE language, but I believe that PIE is older than 6000 years. Sumerians and PIEans could have the same ancestors. PIE didn't came out of nowhere, they had also relatives, distant cousins, you know. R1a* is either from Central Asia or the Iranian Plateau, that's for sure...

Did you in fact read my post, or you're just continuing your rant regardless

 

[Goga]

You guys are continuing with this Santa Clause theories without any substantiated propositions and facts. I've got the feeling that I'm in defense, while in reality I'm providing more valid arguments than all your guys combined. IF you CLAIM something you have to underpin your CLAIMS otherwise it’s useless to discuss. R1a*, R1*, R* etc came never originally from Europe. Even last glacial ice age in Europe, when Europe was mostly unlivable, empty and covered with ice is younger than hg. R1a*, lol.

 

[Goga]

Last glacial period in Europe ended only 12000 years ago. R1a* predate last glacial period in Europe by thousands of years!

 

[Ike]

You still don't understand, FFS. You are the one claiming something. You have to prove it. And DNA tests on people today don't prove anything about the people of the past.

 

[Goga]

You’re not really honest at this moment. How can I prove something for 100% when I don't have any Y-DNA specimen of the Sumerians? As long as we don’t have any Y-DNA specimen of the Sumerians, nobody can give 100% waterproof evidence. All I know is that the Sumerians entered Southern Mesopotamia from the mountains in north. Sumerians were NOT Semitic. Also, there're many cultural links between Kurds and the ancient Sumerians. Kurdish 'Iranic' calendar is derived from the Sumerian calendar. Even ancient Kurdish 'Iranic' religion is derived from the Sumerian mythology.

 

[Ike]

You’re not really honest at this moment. How can I prove something for 100% when I don't have any Y-DNA specimen of the Sumerians? As long as we don’t have any Y-DNA specimen of the Sumerians, nobody can give 100% waterproof evidence.

Exactly. Nobody. So there's no need for any of this. All these are just a good speculations. I don't know why you even bother trying to prove that your speculation is better than anyone else's.

All I know is that the Sumerians entered Southern Mesopotamia from the mountains in north. Sumerians were NOT Semitic. Also, there're many cultural links between Kurds and the ancient Sumerians. Kurdish 'Iranic' calendar is derived from the Sumerian calendar. Even ancient Kurdish 'Iranic' religion is derived from the Sumerian mythology.

Good starting point. That could be resolved with minimal investments pretty soon with the help of Iraqi government, Institute of Archaeology and couple of labs.

 

[Alan]

If I am not mistaken this sub clade is also found in Central Asia.

Well I seem to have been wrong in this point. According to Wikipedia at least, R1a* is not found in Central Asia.

 

[Alan]

But the thing is that Parthians spoke almost the same language as the Medes, a Western Iranian language, closely related with Kurdish language

Exactly my point but this wasn't what you said at first. You said Parthians were Eastern Iranians. But I corrected you by saying they were basically Medes with more Scythian admixture. So if they were Medes they couldn't be East Iranians but Northwest Iranians.

The reason why it is so closely connected to Kurdish is because it is the intermediate state between Medic and Kurdish.

Parthians were basically a successors of the Medes with an early Scythian Elite (the Parni).

This wasn't the first time Medes came in contact with Scythians. This is why I wrote "more Scythian admixture". Even earlier they had the Royal Scythian marching into Media and ruling it for several decades. Also Cimmerians are attested in Media. The Medes were in frequent contact to Scythians.

Also I red somewhere that sources say the Medes were basically the Mitanni Elite who were forced out by the Assyrians.

 

[Goga]

And I wrote before that the Medes, Persians and Parthians were almost identical to each other. They came from the same source of ancestors, like 3 blood brothers from the same parents. They were the Umman Manda (Aryans) of the Iranian Plateau. And yeah, the direct ancetors (parents) of the Medes, Persians and Parthians were the Mitanni / Matiene. Mitanni succeeded Sumerians in Kurdistan. Mitanni were 'proto-Iranic' and not 'Vedic' at all like some ignorant folks claim.

 

[MOESAN]

Are you trying to imply that there is no genetic continuity in the Sumer region since Sumerian times to now? They were a non-Semitic rare people's......what were they hg T,L,F? I personally doubt it; there must be genetic continuity in the region over the past 5,000-10,000 at the minimum.

yet linguisitcally it seems there were more than a strata in Sumer - I'm almost sure it occurred more than a tribe move in this region with time, as says Maciamo - some modifications in Culture seem come from North at that time, and surely more recently just the opposite: moves of semitic tribes from South - the first Y-J1 were surely based in the Zagros region and surroundings, not far, and they colonized the present days Arabia and other semitic countries perhaps at the depends of some early Y-E1b population, before giving birth to specific semitic downstreams of Y-J1 - so a partial continuity at big scale but not in the details, I think - for the autosomals aspect I suppose Sumerians had more 'west-asian' than today compared to 'south-west asian'

 

[adamo]

No, members here stated J1 was NOT present among the Sumerians and certainly J2 wasn't either, in the case of J1 it is hard to believe as Iraqi marsh Arabs have some 85% J1 (southern Iraq region). But apparently this was not present here during the Sumerian era. I guess the main contenders are T and L; I doubt G and E3b were there.