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Thread: is france more germanic then england?

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    is france more germanic then england?

    i read on another form today,people saying that france has the same amount of Germanic dna as England.what do yall think of this??

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    No. France has 2-8% R-S21 whereas England has frequencies nearer to Germany (20-25%) but both countries have about 15% I1; I would argue England has 20% whereas France has nearer to 10-15ish % ; I guess 40% of English lineages are "Germanic" whereas more like 20% of French lineages are Germanic (7% R-S28 nationally plus about 14% I1 I would assume.)

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    Certainly the French are not MORE or even equally Germanic to the English; 7% R-S21 for France vs 20% for England. The problem with I1 is that it varies tremendously across France; one study found less than 10% (8%) and another found 17%. The Normandy region for example was found to have 12% I1. England has about 15% Scandinav I1. Of course the highest frequencies for I1 are Sweden (40%), Norway (35%) and Denmark (30%).

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    The french have an abundance of R1b P-312* lineages with the most basal form being found in 40% of them along with 20% U-152 and I suppose 8-10% R-L21.

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    Only 5-8% are Germanic R-S21; another 15% I suppose is I1 and the rest is Neolithic lineages at lower percentages.

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    Adamo, why do you use one sentence a post 4 times in a row? All 4 of your last posts should have been one post. Please keep your posts more tidy. This is your second warning.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Because my posts can actually be considered as logical contributions to genetics; in what way is this my "second" warning, you snake? I do my best with my fingers on this Ipad; I dont have a computer, your highness.

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    That's just the way it is on this forum; you try to help out and then members with more posts want to drag you down before your posts surpass them; do u think I even see it that way? No. I'll be sure to start "condensing" my posts from now on, sheesh. I'll start playing the game "correctly" from now on; what do I care. I do it because I'm passionate about genetics; nothing else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tjlowery87 View Post
    i read on another form today,people saying that france has the same amount of Germanic dna as England.what do yall think of this??
    Nowhere near, except if you look only at the Nord-Pas-de-Calais region. Based on Y-DNA, England has between 50% and 60% of Germanic male lineages, while France has only about 25%. England has an east-west gradient for Germanic DNA (the highest being in East Anglia, East Midlands and Yorkshire), while France has a north-south gradient, with many regions in the South (Auvergne, Gascony) having under 10% of Germanic Y-DNA.

    Autosomal DNA also shows considerably more Northern European admixture and less Mediterranean admixture for England than for France.
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    VERY appropriate post Maciamo; very pertinent stuff. As Maciamo has just stated, the English have, at least, twice the amount of Germanic lineages. French R1b is overwhelmingly Italo-Celtic in origin (R1b S-116).

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    I do not think is a normal thing to compare England,which is a very small land,to France,which is more Germanic.
    More normally you should compare Normandy with England,to see which is more Germanic,in which case,I am not that sure,that England is more Germanic than Normandy.
    If you want to compare in a normal mode,compare how Germanic is Great Britain as a whole,to France.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    I do not think is a normal thing to compare England,which is a very small land,to France,which is more Germanic.
    More normally you should compare Normandy with England,to see which is more Germanic,in which case,I am not that sure,that England is more Germanic than Normandy.
    If you want to compare in a normal mode,compare how Germanic is Great Britain as a whole,to France.
    The United Kingdom (Britain and Northern Ireland) has a population of 63 million, of which 53 million live in England. And the English have a lot more "Germanic" ancestry than the rest of the UK. So, if you're interested in making comparisons about "Germanic" ancestry (which would include Scandinavian), I think it makes more sense to use England rather than the UK as the sample population. Of course, as has been noted, the amount of "Germanic" ancestry varies enormously in different parts of France, so I think it's fair to question whether one should be comparing the "Germanic" ancestry of France as a whole to some other population sample.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackson View Post
    This map is partly a good answer because for the most it is sensible, CONCERNING MALE DNA - but if it gives us some "food" the true "Germanics" (autosomals) percentages stay yet to be precised because some germanic colonizations were balanced concerning males-females, other were not - do compare hebrides islands or Iceland with Caithness or the Orcades, or Franks settlements with late Normans ones in France or Sicilia a.s.o...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    This map is partly a good answer because for the most it is sensible, CONCERNING MALE DNA - but if it gives us some "food" the true "Germanics" (autosomals) percentages stay yet to be precised because some germanic colonizations were balanced concerning males-females, other were not - do compare hebrides islands or Iceland with Caithness or the Orcades, or Franks settlements with late Normans ones in France or Sicilia a.s.o...
    True, although it seems to be accurate at least for Britain. The POBI project found much of England was 50-60% Germanic, which coincides pretty much exactly with this, although judging by other studies it varies between 25-75% in most areas, and less in some places (like the far south-west).

    Edit: One place where it may have been disproportionatley male is in the northern areas of England, where it looks to be 30-40% Germanic autosomally, but over 50% on the male lines. There's also better evidence (archaeologically) to suppose that the element of elite takeover was stronger there, while folk movement was stronger in the south.

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    Most England genetics,if you look at K36 results is Keltic-pre-Keltic population from Atlantic facade.
    North Sea and West Atlantic and Iberian,which makes most of the English people genetics are from people in Atlantic facade,not associated with Germanics.
    Germanics are associated with Central European admixture,Feno-Scandian etc.
    The irony is that Norway viking males got so many Keltic women from Great Britain,that Norway got lots of Brittish DNA now.
    I am not so sure that I1 clades can be associated for sure with Vikings and Anglo-Saxons,maybe some Celts also had these paternal lines,maybe some people that were living in Great Britain,before the Celts came,had also I1 and so on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Most England genetics,if you look at K36 results is Keltic-pre-Keltic population from Atlantic facade.
    North Sea and West Atlantic and Iberian,which makes most of the English people genetics are from people in Atlantic facade,not associated with Germanics.
    Germanics are associated with Central European admixture,Feno-Scandian etc.
    The irony is that Norway viking males got so many Keltic women from Great Britain,that Norway got lots of Brittish DNA now.
    I am not so sure that I1 clades can be associated for sure with Vikings and Anglo-Saxons,maybe some Celts also had these paternal lines,maybe some people that were living in Great Britain,before the Celts came,had also I1 and so on.
    The 'base' genetic material is pretty similar overall, K36 is more sensitive but in pretty much all calculators we share the same major and minor components as other NW Europeans, but the amount of each varies between each group. You are thinking too simplistically, one or two components on there own do not really matter as such, but all of the components in their various amounts for each group.

    By that logic all Germanics are also part of the Atlantic Facade to varying degrees, in fact most of western and northwestern Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackson View Post
    The 'base' genetic material is pretty similar overall, K36 is more sensitive but in pretty much all calculators we share the same major and minor components as other NW Europeans, but the amount of each varies between each group. You are thinking too simplistically, one or two components on there own do not really matter as such, but all of the components in their various amounts for each group.

    By that logic all Germanics are also part of the Atlantic Facade to varying degrees, in fact most of western and northwestern Europe.
    That is not true,even in Scandinavia,the percentage of Fenoscandian is very different,if you take a South Norwegians from the coast,he has 20% or so,but has a lot of North Sea and if you take a North Swede,he can have even over 50% Feno-Scandian.
    Is quite clear from the German and Finnic languages,that Germanics formed near Finnic people.
    And you can notice that even in Austria,people have FenoScandian admixture,which is a Germanic mark,in Europe.
    Not to mention I did not saw and Brit without at least 8-10 % Iberian admixture,while this admixture is absent or at very low percentages,at most Scandinavians.
    What admixture is for sure that it was brought in UK by Vikings, Anglo-Saxons and Normans is fenoscandian,which I saw is at max 10% or lower in Brits.
    Sure,maybe is at much higher percentages on the coast of Scotland,where people mixed heavily with Vikings.
    Another admixture which can be attributed for sure to Germanics in Great Britain is Central-East European,which could not be brought by Celts.
    While Central European could have been brought by both Celtics and Germanics and very likely both were carriers of this admixture.
    This shows that actually the Germanic ruling classes did not had too much impact on Great Britain genetics,neither on England genetics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    That is not true,even in Scandinavia,the percentage of Fenoscandian is very different,if you take a South Norwegians from the coast,he has 20% or so,but has a lot of North Sea and if you take a North Swede,he can have even over 50% Feno-Scandian.
    Is quite clear from the German and Finnic languages,that Germanics formed near Finnic people.
    And you can notice that even in Austria,people have FenoScandian admixture,which is a Germanic mark,in Europe.
    Not to mention I did not saw and Brit without at least 8-10 % Iberian admixture,while this admixture is absent or at very low percentages,at most Scandinavians.
    What admixture is for sure that it was brought in UK by Vikings, Anglo-Saxons and Normans is fenoscandian,which I saw is at max 10% or lower in Brits.
    Sure,maybe is at much higher percentages on the coast of Scotland,where people mixed heavily with Vikings.
    Another admixture which can be attributed for sure to Germanics in Great Britain is Central-East European,which could not be brought by Celts.
    While Central European could have been brought by both Celtics and Germanics and very likely both were carriers of this admixture.
    This shows that actually the Germanic ruling classes did not had too much impact on Great Britain genetics,neither on England genetics.
    Yes but northern Sweden is probably not the best example of it, as there's a lot of Finnic-like genetic material there that you don't really get (or only in smaller amounts) much further south. Denmark is probably the best example, and they are pretty similar to Dutch, Germans, Norwegians, Swedes and British.

    Honestly, if you look at most tests they will show that for the most part northwest Europeans share very similar genetic material, Scandinavians have more 'Eastern European' type genes (especially in places like northern Sweden, which actually is relatively distant from southern Sweden in PCAs) and people in the British Isles, Germany and the Netherlands have more Atlantic and Mediterranean components, although largely they are similar.

    Anyway, you are talking rubbish. If a survey that has included almost 5000 people from the British Isles and also many samples from the continent shows that most of England is over 50% Germanic, then i'm inclined to believe that over someone who apparently deliberately avoids anything but Eurogenes K36.

    Edit: Anyway, the 'North Sea' component in K36 was entirely taken from samples from Kent in England, and it's the main component in most Germanic countries.

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    sweden is going to be diffrent from england,the germanics that went to england mixed with the celtic/brits,so there going to be a combination of both but still germanic.just a diffrent admixture the swedes............in my opinion.

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    On this topic:
    According to some part of history,a lot of Anglo-Saxons left from England after Norman conquest of England:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_...ish_emigration
    There is written that once even 235 ships with Anglo-Saxons left from England and went to Byzantine Empire.
    Maybe a lot of paternal lineages from England came with Normans.
    Which were indeed a mix of Germanic and (?North) French people.

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    In k12b oracle:
    French
    [,1] [,2]
    [1,] "French" "0"
    [2,] "French_D" "0.9539"
    [3,] "Kent_1KG" "9.8051"
    [4,] "Cornwall_1KG" "9.9775"
    [5,] "Mixed_Germanic_D" "10.4905"
    [6,] "English_D" "10.6579"
    [7,] "CEU30" "10.7624"
    [8,] "British_D" "10.866"
    [9,] "Dutch_D" "11.4678"
    [10,] "British_Isles_D" "11.6426"
    [11,] "Irish_D" "12.8988"
    [12,] "Orcadian" "13.4339"
    [13,] "Argyll_1KG" "13.4785"
    [14,] "Cataluna_1KG" "13.9252"
    [15,] "Orkney_1KG" "14.0296"
    [16,] "Galicia_1KG" "15.3212"
    [17,] "Extremadura_1KG" "16.3162"
    [18,] "German_D" "16.4271"
    [19,] "Spaniards" "16.5224"
    [20,] "Baleares_1KG" "16.6226"


    English:
    [1,] "English_D" "0"
    [2,] "CEU30" "0.3162"
    [3,] "Kent_1KG" "0.8888"
    [4,] "British_Isles_D" "2.1166"
    [5,] "British_D" "2.9292"
    [6,] "Cornwall_1KG" "3.1686"
    [7,] "Dutch_D" "3.2558"
    [8,] "Irish_D" "3.4511"
    [9,] "Orcadian" "3.6878"
    [10,] "Argyll_1KG" "3.6878"
    [11,] "Orkney_1KG" "3.8419"
    [12,] "Mixed_Germanic_D" "4.4922"
    [13,] "French_D" "9.997"
    [14,] "French" "10.6579"
    [15,] "German_D" "12.0117"
    [16,] "Norwegian_D" "12.2499"
    [17,] "Swedish_D" "15.4311"
    [18,] "Hungarians" "21.1755"
    [19,] "Cataluna_1KG" "23.4598"
    [20,] "Galicia_1KG" "25.3008"

    German:
    [1,] "German_D" "0"
    [2,] "Mixed_Germanic_D" "8.4392"
    [3,] "Dutch_D" "8.7715"
    [4,] "Hungarians" "9.4657"
    [5,] "CEU30" "11.783"
    [6,] "English_D" "12.0117"
    [7,] "Kent_1KG" "12.1914"
    [8,] "Swedish_D" "12.2172"
    [9,] "Norwegian_D" "12.2491"
    [10,] "British_Isles_D" "12.7279"
    [11,] "Argyll_1KG" "14.1159"
    [12,] "Orkney_1KG" "14.1372"
    [13,] "Orcadian" "14.7017"
    [14,] "Irish_D" "14.8294"
    [15,] "British_D" "14.8869"
    [16,] "Cornwall_1KG" "15.0446"
    [17,] "French_D" "15.8783"
    [18,] "French" "16.4271"
    [19,] "Polish_D" "20.6671"
    [20,] "Ukranians_Y" "23.8294"

    To put it briefly, the Germans are closer to English than French.
    But the English and French are closer between them than with the German

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    Here's one from Eurogenes as well, the population averages from the EUtest. In the Jtest (the sister of the EUtest) the populations in NW Europe form 3 main groups in a dendrogram, pretty much corresponding to West Germanic North Germanic and Celtic, i organised them into those groups here to compare. Here England looks to be made up of a part that was previously somewhere between the French/Celtic groups (makes sense for Roman Britain) plus another part made up of something between the West and North Germanic groups overall (makes sense for Anglo-Saxons/Frisians/Danes). Although it falls closest to the Dutch and West & Central Germans. Also notice that the Celtic groups are dominated by Atlantic & North Central Euro, the Romance/Celto-Romance by Atlantic or Western Mediterranean, while the Poles are dominated by South Baltic/East Euro and Germanic groups North Central Euro and Atlantic:


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    thanks jackson,and gervis....this makes a lot of sense i have noticed a simiarity between the dutch and english.i wonder if most of the anglo saxons came from nethaerland area?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tjlowery87 View Post
    thanks jackson,and gervis....this makes a lot of sense i have noticed a simiarity between the dutch and english.i wonder if most of the anglo saxons came from nethaerland area?
    According to a fairly recent place-name study, it seems possible that while many came from traditional areas, a lot of them (i guess more of the families and lower class people) might have come from the point where the north sea meets the English channel, in Belgium/France/southern Netherlands. Either that or the same people that settled there also settled in many parts of England and used similar place-names.

    So it's most likely that the incomers spanned the entire length of the North Sea coastline from Belgium/France to Jutland, and some from the interior (historical sources say that many came from all over 'Germany') and Scandinavia. There was also an idea that some Wends arrived too, although if they did they must have been very small in number.

    I also think that there was probably quite a bit of continental influence in the Romano-Britons of Lowland Britain, or at least they were noticeably more southern genetically than many of the people from the west and northern areas that did not have a great deal of Roman influence.

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