Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 129

Thread: Why R1b couldn't have been spread around Western Europe by the Bell Beaker people

  1. #51
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    epoch's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-09-13
    Posts
    779
    Points
    10,483
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,483, Level: 30
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 67
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Tabaccus Maximus View Post

    And yet, this did happen precisely (or likely) from the Balkans with the later Sea Peoples (likely R1b) and also with the even later Northmen (heavily R1b). The Sea People invasion was so catastrophic over a period of several hundred years that it effectively collapsed nearly every Bronze Age society in the Mediterranean.

    But why then is only Iberia target of these hypothetical neolithic seafaring invasions? Shouldn't we see far more of the Iberian type R1b on the southern shores of the Mediterranean. And also shouldn't we see more Bell Beaker sites or similar cultural evidence across the Mediterranean shores? The Sea People showed up everywhere. So should our hypothetical neolithic migrants, I would think.

  2. #52
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    20-11-12
    Posts
    577
    Points
    3,220
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,220, Level: 16
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 230
    Overall activity: 19.0%


    Country: Canada



    I don't believe that there has been a significant number of new haplogroups since 1500 BC; new groups are not born that fast. This leaves very little room for R1b to have spread in Europe in the Bronze Age. I put the events of spreading and branching of R1b in Europe at least in the Neolithic. The spread of Bronze technology was a cultural one, just like the iPhone...The opposite would make the spread of Bronze Age similar to a North-American extermination of the Indians event..

  3. #53
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-01-12
    Posts
    125
    Points
    10,510
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,510, Level: 30
    Level completed: 94%, Points required for next Level: 40
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Poland



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I strongly believe that PIE was born as a hybrid language from two sources:

    1) East Anatolian/Caucasian/Mesopotamian R1b (possibly accompanied by some G2a3b1, J2b and T), as indicated by the distant similarities of PIE with Hurrian and even a little bit with Semitic and Northwest Caucasian languages. This branch inherited the vocabulary of advanced Middle Eastern societies and all words related to deserts, mountains and the sea (thanks to the Black Sea). As I have explained the Maykop people were probably trading by sea over the Black Sea and might have been the ones who founded Troy.

    2) Northeast European/Pontic-Caspian R1a, as indicated by loanwords in PIE from Uralic languages. The R1a branch originated in the Steppe and remained nomadic much longer than the R1b branch.
    I do not believe in this at all. I think that you need to realize that people in Pontic steppe were farmers and/or herders and that their habitat was only in river valleys (where they could find water), and that the surrounding grass areas were uninhabited, before horse became domesticated. Those circumstances provide cultural isolation which I believe produced many language families even in the same river valley. So, if there was any migration from Caucasus I doubt that it had left any recognizable linguistic traces.(Compare it with written history of Native Americans) Then one tribe domesticated horse and everything changed, they could live outside the valley by supplying the tribe in water by riding a horse to river valley. Migration became easier, and new habitat was open to horse riders.
    That one tribe entered the steppe, population grew, their language become dominant over the rest of tribes. That is how I thing that early-Indoeuropean language aroused. And that is how R1a1a1b (S224) made such big founder effect to reach frequencies between 30%-65% of lineages in Central and Eastern Europe.

  4. #54
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,409
    Points
    40,352
    Level
    62
    Points: 40,352, Level: 62
    Level completed: 1%, Points required for next Level: 1,298
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by toyomotor View Post
    It would be interesting to find out if there was a mass migration, and particularly from where. I'm inclined towards an east to west movement, rather than south to north. As I've said before, R1b was found in the Tarim Basin, it's also found in western Europe in large proportions. We're still waiting on an answer for the birth place of R1b.
    TOYOMOTOR don't worry - I answer here because I could not do in an other way - partially I answer to the question of mass migration

    Concerning Y-R1b, I am sure of nothing, but I did not think the typical Bell Beakers were the first bearers of this HG. At this stage I am not more avanced – Maciamo cited some good points and was contradicted by someones – but here come some others:

    some «facts»:


    • 'dinaric' phenotypes appeared about the 3000 BC in western Mediterranea, as from nowhere – at the same times, were found 'dinaric' types too between Denmark and northern Germany – the remote date and place of origin of the type and its phyletic origin is still unknown even if someones proposed an evolution around the Balkans of a type not too different from 'brünn' and 'corded' (we have to be cautious when trying to link it to 'borreby' type which is an not too reliable term for partly brachycephalized archaïc types where 'cromagnoid' and 'brünnoid' trends have to be distinguished one from another even if they merged in some places – I think there were some rare possible 'dinaric' influences among late neolithical people of SOM culture of N-E France and Wallonia – this 'dinarics' were found in metals mines regions of SW Iberia, the same in other western european regions, they were also in southern France at Calcholithic, and tend to disppear everywhere in South after some times: gone away or genetically assimilated?

    • This weakness of the phenotype in the duration in Bell Beakers zones seems indicating a not too numerous population, maybe rather on the male side: we can suppose they took very often females in place and the Desideri surveys and others too seem confirming that.
    • &: on the cultural plan some regions show only isolated artefacts (I red this opinion too in other fora or blogs) – and also the sepultures are heterogenous – often enough the BB sepultures seem intrusive, in low numbers – the domestic pottery when different is considered by some scholars as regional developements of BB – why this diversity is not found among the mortuary pottery? Is not this diversity the manifestation of a colonization of local partly accultured populations by a small number with the typical BB? I confess I have no certitude – but all that proves BBs had more or less cultural and surely demic imput according to the sites (generalizing maps are mistaking) -
    • the propagation of the 'bowl furnaces' system for copper from Near Eastern to Caucasus (and Maikop) and to Creta (4000-3000 BC) according to N. Amzallag attained southern Iberia (Rio Tinto) about the 3000/2700 BC (roughly) and was a copper core prospection leading fast and far at first – only after (with the supposedly identified BBs in W-Europe) the propagation took the form of a peripheric progressive extension with no more the mines prospections as first goal – if it is true it is important: what we call Bell Beakers are already the following people, acculturated and applying an other system of colonization or territorial holding -




    • no more «facts» beneath:
    • &: on the demic aspect I think the BB phenomenom has been largely exagerated; I still think the «Beakers people» phenomenon started before the well identified pottery (it was not born in middle of nowhere) and that the south-center Portugal and south-western Spain areas has been at first more a target area than a genuine cradle – the definite BB first forms born from this colonization of the south Peninsula (3000 BC at least) spred after in all western Europe, with a male elite that was not already erased genetically (there are skeletons), seemingly by Atlantic, Mediterranea and Rhône valley – wherever these ones were coming from and at what stage of crossings, some BBs came in touch with Corded Ware people in central-northern Germania giving birth to a new accultured and genetically partly crossed population (well studied by J-C. Coon) that colonized the north Rhine valley and the northern plain of western Germany and the Netherlands, taking foot in Britain (-2500?) more densely in South and East, even until Eastern Scotland - this last «mixture», phenotypically so genetically already mixed, push their predecessors among whom Long Barrows were the numerous and running class into more inland regions before later mixings (as occurs almost everytime in History) – by the way, we can imagine BBs men were sailors because if they had needed the 'Long Barrows' people help, they would not have pushed them into less good lands BUT caution: here I speak of 2500 BC BBs of NORTHERN EUROPE –

    • The skills of this previously small enough population concerning metals working is evident; we could say they were good sailors too – I am tempted to think so - but are we sure of that? Is a technologically dominant group obliged to be maritime if it can use the maritime local skills of preceding coastal people? Answer just above... and if they came quickly from East Mediterranea but are we sure???

    • The seemingly fast propagation of the BB (the ceremonial pottery) all over Western Europe, coming apparently from S-W Iberia, is more complicated that we thought at first sight – some male elite or professional caste seems linked to it at least at the first stage OR early enough after this first stage – everywhere, and not only in the supposed «cradle» region of Iberia, we find them near metals rich regions – some studies, contradictory for the details, seem proving nevertheless that females were involved in the moves (what speed?) - I suppose subsequent more or less limited migrations of mixed populations after «BB education» by the former male elite – are the regions where bronze centers were born in Occident very different from the regions where Beakers seem having founded colonies, spotty at the beginning and broader spred later ? I confess I don't know in details – the answer could be interesting...
      the N. Amzallag survey offers us an other insight: a foreign group of prospectors landed in southern Iberia as in other places – in Occident surely in Iberia at first; there it created a relatively new style of pottery and in a short enough time expanded in several directions, boosting by technical progress the local cultures – around the Rhône-Rhine Valleys it entered in touch with what could have been Proto-Celts (?) or Proto-Ligurians, around the Atlantic shores with late neolithical megalithic people, among whom the Proto-Basques – almost all the later slower cultural expansion are the facts of accultured people where the weight of previous BBs was progressively fading out – they send the technics, but did not passed their language, only the metal terms in Iberia (explanation of the metals words in basque? What about the iberian?) - the central europeans had yet a metallurgy but the new 'furnaces' system of BBs was adopted as a better one? - as they seem not a too agressive people (but able to defend themselves if needed) and possessing avantageous skills we can suppose they were rather demanded-coopted than submitted (the rapports were maybe not always the same ones according to number and level of culture) -
      conclusion: the later «BBs» development (as in Britain) were no more the result of pure original and independant BBs activity





    addenda:can this really help?
    &: I have some difficulties to admit a general break between copper and bronze: the skills seem coming from East or South-East – some elites could have replaced other ones but in some places - nothing urges us to think bronze did not come from roughly the same cultures as copper – and I recall some scientists (Czechs) supposed prototypes of the BB pottery of Bohemia-Moravia had their prototypes in the ancient Vucedol center (what culture then? Post Baden??? all the way, late neolithical culture, and I suppose, already a 'dinarics' center, pure or not), others even spoke of Moldovia region (former Cucuteni-Tripolje province, and some 'dianrics' here too), but I don't know how serious this can be taken as, except the fact that these two regions were situated closer to the metals first centers than SW-Iberia –



    good supper - I enjoy my glass of white wine from Alsace!

  5. #55
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,409
    Points
    40,352
    Level
    62
    Points: 40,352, Level: 62
    Level completed: 1%, Points required for next Level: 1,298
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    concerning mass migration, we have to keep in mind archeology does not provide us everytime a good evidence - and an ethny can stay in tiny number a certain time before to know a spectacular increase (material progress, plague end after selection, better climate) - the only thing we can see then is a densification of settlements, not always an amazing change in the matérial culture or a trail showing the travel -
    the physical anthropology (recent) show the intrusion of new people in the carpathian Bassin at bronze Age but in a lot of place it seems the newcomers were absorbed, either by departure or by crossing - all the way, more than a move was seen at that period but almost never was completely replaced a population: cultures lived often enough side by side -
    the BB held a lot of interesting (economically) places in Europe but never covered the whole Occident (without speaking about the densities of settlements and depth of colonization) - I shall read again the Desideri study but yet I can say: we lack a period by period (precise datations) analysis of the BB phenomenon in every place, concerning anthropology: so I do here only bets (but it is amusing, when we know there will be no more game) -
    I think for the moment Y-R1b was in W-Europe before Bronze Age, and could have been divided in I-E speaking populationS and non-I-E speaking ones for a time, before complete assimilation by the former (but later arrived in West?) - the later growing of its clades (firstable isolated enough) could be linked to the diverse advantages of metals (even for deforesting!) and horses -

  6. #56
    Emperor Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    10-04-13
    Posts
    2,120
    Points
    4,787
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,787, Level: 20
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 263
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Italy



    i find the spread of bell beaker to be oddly in synch with the spread of r1b although i may be wrong;







  7. #57
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,715
    Points
    705,654
    Level
    100
    Points: 705,654, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    i find the spread of bell beaker to be oddly in synch with the spread of r1b although i may be wrong;
    The easy explanation is not always the right one. Looking at the modern map of R1b, most people used to think that R1b represented the paternal lineage of Cro-Magnon... The maps of Megalithic and Bell Beaker cultures are illusions of the same kind.
    My book selection---Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  8. #58
    Emperor Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    10-04-13
    Posts
    2,120
    Points
    4,787
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,787, Level: 20
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 263
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Italy



    Where the men of I the cro-magnon's?

  9. #59
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,409
    Points
    40,352
    Level
    62
    Points: 40,352, Level: 62
    Level completed: 1%, Points required for next Level: 1,298
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Where the men of I the cro-magnon's?
    'cro-magnon' was not the only population that inhabited Europe after the LGM - let's leave the naming "cro-magnon" concerning cultural stage and let's keep this name for only a physical well determined type - other populations (types) were there about the 14000 BC - so linking 'cro-magnon' to Y-I or the reverse is too soon for me -

  10. #60
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-01-12
    Posts
    125
    Points
    10,510
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,510, Level: 30
    Level completed: 94%, Points required for next Level: 40
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Poland



    Bell-Beaker culture probably isn't source of R1b in Western Europe, because R1b was there before it emerged. According to Myres et al.(2010) M269 emerged 10270+-1680 YBP, M412/L51 8870+-1708 YBP, S116 8630+-1529 YBP, U106 8742+-1551 YBP. That time points to LBK culture and Neolithic origin of R1b. The most probable explanation of wide spread of R1b in whole Europe and very high frequency in West Europe is due to their farming culture which provided more food for children then hunter-gatherers cultures.
    Map of diffusion of agriculture in Europe clearly correlate with spread of R1b:
    Europe-diffusion-farming.jpg
    the same correlation is reviled by autosomal "Gedrosian" and to lesser extent "Mediterranean" components in Western Europe.

  11. #61
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registeredTagger Second Class1000 Experience Points
    toyomotor's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-04-12
    Location
    Tasmania
    Posts
    144
    Points
    2,196
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,196, Level: 13
    Level completed: 16%, Points required for next Level: 254
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    D2a1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a4

    Ethnic group
    Australian/Irish/European
    Country: Australia



    MOESAN: Thank you for your comprehensive comments. I have never really accepted that the spread of Bell Beaker pottery was necessarily closely linked to the spread of R1b. Pottery, being the province of women in those times, could have spread by way of trade, inter-marriage or migration, or a combination of all three. That the spread of Bell Beaker pottery is described as a "culture" doesn't quite gel with me. In order for a "culture" to exist, imho, there would need to be many more shared factors, such as language, religion and means of existence, e.g. agriculture, hunting, fishing and so on. I know I'm arguing against experts, but I thinks there's a great deal more research that needs to be done on this subject.

  12. #62
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,409
    Points
    40,352
    Level
    62
    Points: 40,352, Level: 62
    Level completed: 1%, Points required for next Level: 1,298
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by matbir View Post
    Bell-Beaker culture probably isn't source of R1b in Western Europe, because R1b was there before it emerged. According to Myres et al.(2010) M269 emerged 10270+-1680 YBP, M412/L51 8870+-1708 YBP, S116 8630+-1529 YBP, U106 8742+-1551 YBP. That time points to LBK culture and Neolithic origin of R1b. The most probable explanation of wide spread of R1b in whole Europe and very high frequency in West Europe is due to their farming culture which provided more food for children then hunter-gatherers cultures.
    Map of diffusion of agriculture in Europe clearly correlate with spread of R1b:
    Europe-diffusion-farming.jpg
    the same correlation is reviled by autosomal "Gedrosian" and to lesser extent "Mediterranean" components in Western Europe.
    'gedrosian' component in western Europe is very peculiar because it lacks high %s of the brother 'caucasian' or we have to suppose 'gedrosian ran from W-India to Anatolia before being "smashed" by northern 'caucasians' (it is not totally absurd but very improbable for now (caucasic tribes occupied Palestina, Lebanon, Syria, Anatolia and Mesopotamia) around 4500 BC - where were they before, I don't know) - waiting more, i now think 'gedrosia' component in NW Europe could be come there by a northern way (look at its high enough % in Scandinavia as N-Celtic lands, poor enough for 'caucasian'... Myres valuations for time are evaluations, nothing else, and are debated I believe -

    + I find funny enough believing the destination places would become ALWAYS heavier for an HG than the origin place... and the more recent SNPs if they are numerous one together are not at all the proof of more recent settlement!!! it is statistical sometimes: the more numerous the more chances to undergo new mutations - some recent places can loose their few newer SNPs and keep with the older ones by the "law of great numbers" ("small number" in fact) even if I don't discuss here the fact that more remotly in time R1b came from East or South-East

  13. #63
    martiko Achievements:
    250 Experience Points3 months registered
    martiko's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-01-14
    Posts
    213
    Points
    397
    Level
    4
    Points: 397, Level: 4
    Level completed: 47%, Points required for next Level: 53
    Overall activity: 11.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-DF100
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T1a1

    Ethnic group
    european : basqueR1b/IberianI2b
    Country: France



    Liguian/celtiberian : L11 or P312+/M65+/L21-/DF27-/U152-

  14. #64
    Elite member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    21-01-14
    Posts
    537
    Points
    3,837
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,837, Level: 17
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 13
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: UK - Wales



    "But why then is only Iberia target of these hypothetical neolithic seafaring invasions?"

    What if they weren't invasions but a migration of a metalworking caste similar to the African Blacksmith castes? The difference in their effect could then simply be the difference in the degree of founder effect i.e. larger founder effect in areas of relatively low population e.g. the west and northwest.

    google west african blacksmith castes

  15. #65
    Elite member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    21-01-14
    Posts
    537
    Points
    3,837
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,837, Level: 17
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 13
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: UK - Wales



    1 members found this post helpful.
    <blockquote>1) Geography & Chronology : R1b indubitably originated in Asia
    2) R1b-U106. It could be envisaged that L11 crossed by sea from the Balkans to western Iberia, and that the Proto-Celtic R1b-P312 (aka S116) first appeared in south-western Iberia and spread with the Beaker folk from there. But then what of the other main subclade of L11, namely the Proto-Germanic U106 (S21) ? How did it end up in northern Europe if R1b-L11 migrated by sea to Iberia ? The centre of genetic diversity of R1b-U106 clearly lies between the Benelux and Denmark.
    3) Steppe pastoralists do not suddenly become maritime traders.
    4) A successful large-scale, organised maritime invasion of Iberia from the Balkans is highly improbable.
    5) The R1b sample from Kromsdorf did not belong to Beaker people, but to Proto-Indo-European from the Unetice culture or its immediate predecessor. Both culture co-existed side-by-side in that region until about 2200 BCE.
    6) Bronze Age and Indo-European values & lifestyle were not present in Iberia during the Beaker period.
    </blockquote>

    Caste of metalsmiths from around the Black Sea - *adjacent* to the steppe IE but themselves non-steppe - speaking an IE language dispersing around Europe to pre-existing settlements (including the pre-existing megalithic culture settlements along the Atlantic coast like Jutland) having very little demographic impact in regions of already high population but dramatic founder effects in regions of low population density like Western and Northwestern Europe.


  16. #66
    martiko Achievements:
    250 Experience Points3 months registered
    martiko's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-01-14
    Posts
    213
    Points
    397
    Level
    4
    Points: 397, Level: 4
    Level completed: 47%, Points required for next Level: 53
    Overall activity: 11.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-DF100
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T1a1

    Ethnic group
    european : basqueR1b/IberianI2b
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Greying Wanderer View Post
    "But why then is only Iberia target of these hypothetical neolithic seafaring invasions?"

    What if they weren't invasions but a migration of a metalworking caste similar to the African Blacksmith castes? The difference in their effect could then simply be the difference in the degree of founder effect i.e. larger founder effect in areas of relatively low population e.g. the west and northwest.

    google west african blacksmith castes
    there is no plague of navigation, but the progress of the Earth of people R1b in all Europe and towards the southwest of Europe. In that case why the presence of R1b is so strong in the Iberian Peninsula and so weak in peninsula italics, according to your logic they should have the opposite but it is not so.

    On the other hand they determine in the Iberian Peninsula the weakest rates of Europe of the most ancient markers R1b such L51; it proves that R1b arrives in the Iberian Peninsula and with bronze later to the arsenic which is the perfect example of the Bronze age.
    No! undoubtedly nothing seems possible for a maritime plague.

  17. #67
    Elite member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    21-01-14
    Posts
    537
    Points
    3,837
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,837, Level: 17
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 13
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: UK - Wales



    If they were a metalsmith caste living among an existing population then any founder effect would be inversely proportional to the size of the original population: ten R1b among 1000 people would have less effect than 10 among 100.

  18. #68
    martiko Achievements:
    250 Experience Points3 months registered
    martiko's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-01-14
    Posts
    213
    Points
    397
    Level
    4
    Points: 397, Level: 4
    Level completed: 47%, Points required for next Level: 53
    Overall activity: 11.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-DF100
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T1a1

    Ethnic group
    european : basqueR1b/IberianI2b
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Greying Wanderer View Post
    If they were a metalsmith caste living among an existing population then any founder effect would be inversely proportional to the size of the original population: ten R1b among 1000 people would have less effect than 10 among 100.
    For their descendants, in which epoch take percentages you it? because since it there had the plague of the Roman, be able of wisigoths, be able of basques, be able of Arabic. And however their descendants unquestionably M65, represents between 20 and 3 % in the regions of Spain, excepted the Basque country between 0.3 %-0 %.

    http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home...num_95_3_10813
    Last edited by martiko; 24-01-14 at 13:51.

  19. #69
    Elite member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    21-01-14
    Posts
    537
    Points
    3,837
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,837, Level: 17
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 13
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: UK - Wales



    Quote Originally Posted by martiko View Post
    For their descendants, in which epoch take percentages you it? because since it there had the plague of the Roman, be able of wisigoths, be able of basques, be able of Arabic. And however their descendants unquestionably M65, represents between 20 and 3 % in the regions of Spain, excepted the Basque country between 0.3 %-0 %.
    Which clade's descendants? The different clades seem to show big differences in the number of their descendants. Clades centered in Regions that were the least populated like Britain, Ireland and Jutland seem to have a lot of descendants and clades in regions that had higher populations seem to have less.

  20. #70
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    09-02-14
    Posts
    30
    Points
    4,064
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,064, Level: 18
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 186
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Australia



    1 members found this post helpful.

    Why R1b couldn't have been spread around Western Europe by the Bell Beaker people

    This article tries to draw complex inferences from little or no evidence, like many other articles on Eupedia.

    We know there are three theories for the arrival of R1b in Europe a) preglacial paleolithic; b) neolithic agricultural expansion 8000-4000 BC; c) Bronze age invasion. There is little or no evidence for the last, yet this site is full of it, even attaching complex cultural timelines.

    So far we have only a tiny sample of neolithic Y-haplotypes from about 7 families in 4 locations, around 5000 BC. The ones around the Mediterranean are mostly G2a with one E-V13. In Germany, the LBK one has one G2a, two ancestral F. These lines are tiny in modern Europe, they effectively died out. And now we have two R1b in a Bell Beaker site in Germany c2550BC. This proves nothing.

    The neolithic G settlements were agriculturalist immigrants from the Middle East. They had villages and burial sites so it is much easier to find their remains. For all we know they could have been surrounded by aboriginal R1bs and I's
    who overran them.

    All we can deduce is there were probably very few R1bs or I's living in agricultural communities in southern Europe around 5000 BC. If R1b did arrive as agriculturalists, they came along a northern path and later than the G's and F's.

    Personally, I think the paleolithic theory is more likely to be true (viz the Gs were expanding into a R1b hinterland and came to grief. Later on some aboriginal R1bs picked up the G technologies but within their own culture). However - we need considerably more evidence, especially some paleolithic Y-DNA which should sort this out.

  21. #71
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    24-02-15
    Posts
    243
    Points
    2,727
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,727, Level: 14
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 23
    Overall activity: 11.0%


    Country: United States



    There is some evidence R1b may have reached Portugal through North Africa around 3000 BC. If you take desertification into account they would have been pretty much forced into Iberia. Egypt had a primitive galley 3000 BC so that explains seafaring technology.

    Celtic and North African languages have remarkable similarities. Bell Beaker pottery and North African pottery have a lot in common. North African cattle arrived in Spain sometime prior to 1700 BC.

    R1b V88 also has a presence in Sub-Saharan Africa, it's a different lineage, but it shows there's a migration route and populations tend to use the same migration route. There's a small amount of R1b V88 left in North Africa and the same goes for R1b L11 which may be as high as 10% in some parts.

    Maps of R1b L11, Bell Beaker, and the Celtic language are almost identical. It's a far better explanation for the spread of the Celtic language than the Hallstat theory early historians invented.

    I also haven't seen convincing evidence for a Balkan origin of R1b L11, everything suggests R1a and R1b horse tribes moved south into the Middle East and North Africa around 4000 BC and moved back north around 3000 BC.

  22. #72
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,409
    Points
    40,352
    Level
    62
    Points: 40,352, Level: 62
    Level completed: 1%, Points required for next Level: 1,298
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    1 members found this post helpful.
    NEO-Celtic languages show SOME syntaxic similarities with hamitic-semitic languages (some of whose were perhaps spoken in Mediterranea who knows?)
    but ANCIENT celtic syntax is by far very commonly I-Ean and nothing else, at first sight - SO we can, yes, imagine a link or influence from previous southern populations but not a southern origin of celtic - a substratum only - and the dominant class suremy imposed the numeric dominance of its Y-HGs (here Y-R1b) - so Y-R1b, as a whole, did not came through North Africa, even if proofs are needed - BBs were "strangers", a foreign population limited in number - they were surely not by force the Y-R1b bearers but they could have been in contact with more numerous Y-R1b bearers and have been responsible for some presence of Y-R1b in North Zfrica (# V88) -

    I know bigger numbers would be an help to judge but today the only ancient Y-R1b found in Iberia is apparently of the V88 lignage, nothing to do with Celts -
    and the genealogy of the "poor" (spite dense) Y-R1b lignages in Western Europe tends to prove a continental eastern origin (spite some old upstram SNPs came maybe by Mediterranea, for the most into Italy)

    it'strue old celtic myhts speak of North Africa as they spoke of a Scythic origin, but when were they composed??? under which classical influence?

  23. #73
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    24-02-15
    Posts
    243
    Points
    2,727
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,727, Level: 14
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 23
    Overall activity: 11.0%


    Country: United States



    Some language experts disagree and argue that Celtic originated in North Africa, with Celtic being closer to Afro-Asiatic than to Indo European languages. Some anthropologists claim that Bell Beakers replaced the existing population.

    These are grey areas and there are few hard facts.

    Looks like there's some more evidence here:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/envir...frica-1.522345

    It speaks of a North African lineage dated around 3600 BC which is shared by 1% of Scotts. I assume it's an Y haplogroup but the article doesn't mention which one.

  24. #74
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    24-02-15
    Posts
    243
    Points
    2,727
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,727, Level: 14
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 23
    Overall activity: 11.0%


    Country: United States



    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC166441/

    This 2003 study is a little old but relevant, it dates the split of Gaulish and Gaelic to 3200 BC (with some margin for error), the R1b L21 split is dated around 3000 BC, start of Bell Beaker culture is dated at 2800 BC.



    The study estimates Celtic and Indo-European to have diverged around 8100 BC.

    The evidence is pretty strong, still a bit of a mystery where the early Celts came from and what their technological advantages were. As academics are most likely wrong about the spread of the Celtic language (500 BC according to most text books) it's very well possible that a lot of interesting historical information has been ignored.

  25. #75
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,409
    Points
    40,352
    Level
    62
    Points: 40,352, Level: 62
    Level completed: 1%, Points required for next Level: 1,298
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Expredel View Post
    Some language experts disagree and argue that Celtic originated in North Africa, with Celtic being closer to Afro-Asiatic than to Indo European languages. Some anthropologists claim that Bell Beakers replaced the existing population.

    These are grey areas and there are few hard facts.

    Looks like there's some more evidence here:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/envir...frica-1.522345

    It speaks of a North African lineage dated around 3600 BC which is shared by 1% of Scotts. I assume it's an Y haplogroup but the article doesn't mention which one.

    not very serious -the extract makes mixings of different aspects of the problem - CUNLIFFE is known for his already old positions against celticity of Ireland (not against celticity of gaelic, at first) - now he changed mind? his love for southern exotic links pushes him to imagine a southern origin for celtic language???
    'scientist' is not alwats a proof of seriousness about anthropologic sciences... - I wait the details about the 1% or african genes in Scotland (what has nothing to do with Celts iorigin) -
    it's not the first time british "scientists" publish iconoclastic papers that turned out as shit soon later, helas
    I know celtic languages syntax and vocabulary and the links they have with hamitic-semitic languages are some ture aspects, BUT NOT an identity! and their phonology has nothing to do with them
    I'll pass for a "racist", but SOMEONES in the anglo-saxon scientific world are more sellers than sharers - that said, a tiny link with Berbers would not surprise me (Mesolithic times through Iberia) but I wait autosomes proofs of it -
    good evening

Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •