How to distinguish the Y-DNA of various Germanic invaders in England ?

I don't have a computer but type "angles, Saxons and Jutes" into google images and you will see where these continental Germanics came from; certainly from Denmark although a few accounts include southernmost Sweden and the Netherlands as well.
 
Some claim the Jutes came from northernmost Denmark, the angles from central Denmark, and the Saxons from the Germano-Danish border, on the Danish side. Others claim the Jutes where from southern Sweden and the Saxons were from holland. Either way, Denmark was heavily implicated in all this.
 
adamo;421659 ... Either way said:
"Implicated"... you make it sound like a crime scene. Yes, there is much Danish genetics in England, but this admixture is what made the Island what it is today.
 
Wow. Very useful comment man, my mothers father was y-DNA I by the way. Here; let me phrase it better for you: THEY F _ _ _ _ _ _ CAME FROM DENMARK. XD lol
 
Wow. Very useful comment man, my mothers father was y-DNA I by the way. Here; let me phrase it better for you: THEY F _ _ _ _ _ _ CAME FROM DENMARK. XD lol

So what makes this comment any more useful?

I don't think he was disagreeing as to where they came from.
 
I'll let you know when I start caring
 
Some claim the Jutes came from northernmost Denmark, the angles from central Denmark, and the Saxons from the Germano-Danish border, on the Danish side.

Who is "some" here? Most of what I have read places the Saxons around modern-day Niedersachsen (hence the sachsen part), the Angles around modern-day Schleswig-Holstein (hence the name of the Angeln region), and only the Jutes from modern-day Danish Jutland. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm interested in alternative explanations, but I'm having trouble finding a reference.
 
Correct, they may have legitimately come from Saxony in northwestern Germany near the border with holland. The Angles came from extreme northern Germany on the Denmark border; it is certainly possible if not very probable.
 
I personally see a link between the English and Danes, Denmark may have been a region from which many continental Germanics migrated to England (Danelaw region). Think of English surnames; Morton, Jackson, Johnson, for example. They mimic a Germanic pattern such as Petersen and other Danish surnames, whereas the scots and Irish with their MacGregor's McDonald's and O'Shea's have a clearly different and isolated surname pattern. This isn't necessarily indicative of anything, just my personal thoughts : )

English is a Germanic language. It's not necessarily just Danish, even though the Danes did make a genetic and cultural impact upon England. But the surname ending "son" also has Old English (Anglo-Saxon) roots as well as Danish.

Ap, O' , and Mac' are all Celtic
 
Correct, they may have legitimately come from Saxony in northwestern Germany near the border with holland. The Angles came from extreme northern Germany on the Denmark border; it is certainly possible if not very probable.
The Saxons that came to England were actually a confederation of previous tribes. Much like the Franks who were really a conglomeration of previous tribes.

The original Saxones were on the German-Danish border near Schleswig. The Chaucii were more settled in NW Germany in modern day Lower Saxony, closer to Holland.

When warfare became more and more prevalent among the Germanic tribes, old tribal divisions broke down and new ones sprung up that were usually more military oriented.

The saxones and chaucii , as well as some Bructeri became the Saxons or Saxon confederation.

Tribes like the Cheruscii, Marsii, Angrivarii and Usipatii became the original Franks.

Tribes further south, like the Marcomanni, Mattiaci, Hermandurii, and Chatti, became Allemanns

when you hear about the Battle of the Teutoberg Forest in 9 A.D., there is no mention of Saxons or Franks, but of Chaucii ,Bructerii, Cheruscii etc..., who were in the same location as the later Saxons and Franks.

It was before the old tribal divisions had broken down. The Chaucii, Bructerii, and Cherusci would later make up a large part of the Saxons and Franks.
 
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I've noticed that surnames ending in "-er" (ie. Carter, Holder, Cooper, etc.) seem to indicate Germanic lines and names ending in "-s" (Jones) tend to be from Wales. Of course this is a grossly simplistic read of the surname situation, but I thought I'd throw it out there. And yes, I've noticed the "-son" relating to the Nordic countries.
Welsh names that end in "s" are simply names with a "son" at the end that have been shortened to "s"......Jones, Evans, etc..just mean son of John or son of Lefan

It's still from Germanic or Saxon influence.

The Celtic Welsh pre-fix for "Son of" was Map, then Ap.....usually shortened to just a "P".

Names such as Powell or Price mean Ap' Howell (son of Howell) or Ap' Rhys (son of Rhys)
in Welsh.

Some names like Bevans, have both, a Celtic Welsh prefix and Anglo-Welsh or Saxon suffix , both meaning "son of"
 
Wow. Very useful comment man, my mothers father was y-DNA I by the way. Here; let me phrase it better for you: THEY F _ _ _ _ _ _ CAME FROM DENMARK. XD lol

Didn't mean to start a battle here. In the U.S., the word implicated is often used in court cases or instances of crimminal wrong-doing. It may not have the same connotion in Europe... sorry for the confusion on my end.

But Sparkey, regarding the location of the early Anglyn/Angle tribes and the early Saxons tribes... Adamo is correct in his placement. The Angles were first centered around Hedeby (in what is now Denmark) and the Saxons were slightly south of the Angles. (It's my opinion they were the same tribe at some point actually.) The Jutes were further North and further West than the Angles, and probably had a much higher concentration of R1b lineages even after the theoretical I1 influx.

I know I should source these claims, but I did go full-bore Rainman on these three tribes a while back ago (when work permitted) and am comfortable comfirming that Adamo's locations are spot-on (for the earliest locations).
 
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Oops, American Idiot... I missed your posts. I agree with most of what you've written, but I was never able to directly link the Angles or the Saxons to earlier Germanic tribes like the Chaucii or the Harude-- genetically speaking (going off of hg. I1 orientation anyway). Certainly the Northern continental tribes became a thorough mix of R1b and I1, but when did this happen?

It seems like there might have been an enormous influx of I1 sometime around 300 A.D. or even 500 A.D. from areas further North. This scenerio would account for the utter lack of I1 found in earlier Continental settlements. Of course this would make the Chaucii/Aleman/etc. very heavily R1b. (The Jutes seem to have always had elevated R1b levels in relation to both the Angles and Saxons.)

By the way, anyone hear of any updates concerning those digs in Denmark?
 
But Sparkey, regarding the location of the early Anglyn/Angle tribes and the early Saxons tribes... Adamo is correct in his placement. The Angles were first centered around Hedeby (in what is now Denmark) and the Saxons were slightly south of the Angles. (It's my opinion they were the same tribe at some point actually.) The Jutes were further North and further West than the Angles, and probably had a much higher concentration of R1b lineages even after the theoretical I1 influx.

But Hedeby was in modern-day Germany, in the Angeln region...
 
Contemporary english language (the germanic part), old english and contemporary german language belong both to the west germanic languages, together with frisian, dutch and old saxon. The language of the northern half of germany was plattdütsch. It is a close brother to old english/saxon and is popular still today in many villages not only in Niedersachsen and Schleswig-Holstein, but also further east in Mecklenburg and Pomerania (before WW2 even in Poland). The common ancestor of plattdütsch and old english is old saxon. The medieval rulers after charlemagne in germany were all saxons (Ottones, Duches of Brunswick, Henry the Lion, ...). German language in general belongs to west germanic too like english does.

Danish on the other hand is a north germanic language and east scandinavian in particular. But it also differs from swedish, thus some say it is an own south scandinavian branch. It sounds like swedish spoken by germans.
 
But Hedeby was in modern-day Germany, in the Angeln region...

You're correct Sparkey... I got a little careless and was going back to clean this up. I should have said Jutland instead of Denmark.

This little section of geography holds alot of history... much of it cloudy. But here's what I've come up with regarding the area tribes.

Saxons are considered a Germanic tribe (by most folks anyway)... as are the Angles, but it is my thinking that the Angles started out as a heavily Nordic clan and then later morphed into a German group through inter-marriage/intermixing. This would explain the I1 distribution patterns that we now see. So much of the I1 in this region is closely related when considering STR markings and it seems like a (somewhat recently established yet successful) tribe sweeping in would best explain the genetic maps.

Basically all of this has to tie back to the Danes at some point. The Dane admixture changed the Harude, the Northern Suebii and other older native tribes into first what we know as the Angles and soon after the Saxons.
 
Any thoughts on "Jutes", "Jutland" etc being connected to a mispronunciation of "Geats?"

The Geats lived in southern Sweden and the Jutes lived in northern Denmark, so they were likely different but related tribes.
 
Any thoughts on "Jutes", "Jutland" etc being connected to a mispronunciation of "Geats?"

Might be something to it;
Bede in his Historia Ecclesiastica (I/XV) uses the terms lutis and lutarum but in King Alfreds translation of the Historia Ecclesiastica the terms are replaced by Geatum and Geata;
Why this was the case is anyones guess; one of the most accepted is that the Jutes migrating to Britannia were replaced by Geats in later times (fleeing the Svear) and thus by Alfred times it was Geata;

In ancient times (Plinius IV/XXVII) the peninsula was called Cartris and inhabited by the Cimbri;
 
Might be something to it;
Bede in his Historia Ecclesiastica (I/XV) uses the terms lutis and lutarum but in King Alfreds translation of the Historia Ecclesiastica the terms are replaced by Geatum and Geata;
Why this was the case is anyones guess; one of the most accepted is that the Jutes migrating to Britannia were replaced by Geats in later times (fleeing the Svear) and thus by Alfred times it was Geata;

In ancient times (Plinius IV/XXVII) the peninsula was called Cartris and inhabited by the Cimbri;

Gutes in gotland are different again
 

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