Guess the Y-haplogroup(s) of Mesolithic Iberians (Braña 1 & 2)

[T101]

I'm putting my money on R1a1a-M17. They were the blue-eyed, hunter-gatherers of the mammoth steppe, and from Mesolithic Europe to Siberia they roamed. I2, I bet originated in the Middle East/ Eastern Med., and only arrived in Europe during the Neolithic. I1 is probably a Neolithic entrant as well, and arrived with LBK.

 

[MOESAN]

I chose haplogroup T, and to highroll, haplogroup L.

My wager
99.9% haplogroup T
00.1% haplogroup L (highball)

I chose haplgroup T for several reasons...
Dienekes K12 run showed a 10% affinity to East Africans. Another run strangely to the San. Another to East Asians. Bizarre results?
East Africa has a strange founder effect for T* which extends through Tanzania and the countryside. Another group of people that has T* in low frequencies is the Australian aborigines, and it is also probably found at low frequencies among australoid peoples, which may explain part of the Asian shift.

Here's the bottom line: Europe was not invaded and settled by Amazonian women. We should not see very much continuity in male haplogroups through the ages when we see obvious discontinuity between female haplotypes as we do.

Racially, the La Brana individuals' facial features, while Caucasian, do not look Northern European. So the proximity, while more similar to Northern Europeans that Southern Europeans, doesn't mean they were or looked like Northern Europeans. If they belonged to haplogroup T, then they will appear more Northern European than Neolithic (G2a and E1b) individuals with non-k, non-MNOPS haplogroups. In theory, with the U5 lineage and a LT lineage, should appear more North European, East African and South East Asian.
I think the cheek bones, brow, forehead and the teeth speak to this.

I'm interested by what you say concerning facial features: could you give more details or a link on the net? thank you beforehand
by the way, "northern european" show a dominant trend dolicho-cranial and facial, a kind of 'eurafrican' types with some divergeant details (roughly said, things are more complicated!) what gained him the naming "depigmented mediterranean" (Coon idea?) even if it is a too short-cut conclusion - but this dominant trend doesn't manage to conceal other trends in North Europe of whom some are archaïc, and on the way to 'cro-magnon' and to 'brünn' , partly brachycephalized or not -

 

[Maciamo]

I have edited the thread title as didn't notice until after I had voted and replied that it was only about the two 7000-year-old samples from La Brana-Arintero. I thought it was Mesolithic Iberians in general, which makes a whole lot of difference.

 

[Tabaccus Maximus]

I'm interested by what you say concerning facial features: could you give more details or a link on the net? thank you beforehand
by the way, "northern european" show a dominant trend dolicho-cranial and facial, a kind of 'eurafrican' types with some divergeant details (roughly said, things are more complicated!) what gained him the naming "depigmented mediterranean" (Coon idea?) even if it is a too short-cut conclusion - but this dominant trend doesn't manage to conceal other trends in North Europe of whom some are archaïc, and on the way to 'cro-magnon' and to 'brünn' , partly brachycephalized or not -

Sorry for the late reply. I have limited connectivity at the momment. I googled and found a recent paper on La Brana. Might have been Academia(?) where you can register for free.
One of the men has typical Caucasoid features such as the eye socket shape and chin, round cranial top. The forhead is more resessed than most Euros. The cheeks more pronounced.
The brow is split like two umbrellas. The upper teeth are damaged but don't look typical NW Euro.

I'll make a concession and say he cound be an R* man due to the fact that Mesolithic R* people had not yet mixed with gracialized Mediterranean/Middle Eastern people, but the diversity and age of R* in Western Europe makes it unlikely. Also, the European neolithics were at least mostly not R* and later population movements can account for R's spread to the West

 

[MOESAN]

Sorry for the late reply. I have limited connectivity at the momment. I googled and found a recent paper on La Brana. Might have been Academia(?) where you can register for free.
One of the men has typical Caucasoid features such as the eye socket shape and chin, round cranial top. The forhead is more resessed than most Euros. The cheeks more pronounced.
The brow is split like two umbrellas. The upper teeth are damaged but don't look typical NW Euro.

I'll make a concession and say he cound be an R* man due to the fact that Mesolithic R* people had not yet mixed with gracialized Mediterranean/Middle Eastern people, but the diversity and age of R* in Western Europe makes it unlikely. Also, the European neolithics were at least mostly not R* and later population movements can account for R's spread to the West

I'm not in a position to make bets about the La Braña (Leon Spain) people Y-HGs
I found at last a picture of the La Braña I (male? surely) and this lonely picture is taken from a "in front top positon" so it is difficult to make a pronostic -
at first sight it seems "archaïc" (not too informative!) and broad cheekboned with broad rectangular eyescokets and broad enough jawed (inferior maxillar) - a true facial picture would have helped me but... the forehead doesn' t seem too vertical nor bomb-like, it seems rather "brutal" :
I would bet a 'cro-magnoid'-'capelloid/brünnoid' crossing more on the 'cro-magnon' side but...? it is important and perhaps presomptuous, it could imply there were more than a phylum at European Mesolithic (I think it is so) - all the types I saw (pictures) or I red about in Mesolithic are for me crossings of these two phylums whatever they were "regional" and well marked; I believe they were crossings (white mulatos) but with a new process of partial (local) raciation, what is normal with isolation and small falilies or clans, spite the exchanges - but their two ancestral phylums (for me) were so close (in Dordogne France by example or in Bohemia) some thousands after after the LGM that crossings was almost obliged... Teviec as Mugem types had the same different and alike story I think -
concerning the autosomal 'north-european' concept 1) I think it is heterogenous - 2) the known 'nordic' phenotype is modern in date and form, and I suppose he formed itself in West-Eurasia upon an refined previously archaic robust type, dolichofacial, of remote common proto-"brünnoid"-"eurafrican" origin (Coon would be right?) by relative isolation followed by sur-depigmentation - if I'm right it came to Europe by East, and found in Northern Europe AND North-Eastern Europe the remnants of paleo-mesolithic people of the same stock of the pre-Iberians? It could make sense -
I recall some western "mediterraneans" show a incipient archaic component as well as Irishmen and Welshmen and all the way we find that until Sweden-Norway on the North Sea shores (this old mixture would give the 'atlantic' or 'northwest' component its particuliarities?) - everytime the two basic archaic types are found one together in the mix with the modern types- in fact even Central and East Europe show these remnants - Welshmen and Danes and Western Frenchies by instance present more on the 'cromagnoid' side (as do some Murcianos) when Dutchmen are more on the "capelloid-brünnoid" side - Central Europe and some other districts in W-Norway, Germany and Denmark show this mixture of types but more brachycephalized I think -
&: the 'gracilization' is a partially non-genetic phenomenon or a genetic one but under pressure-selection which doesn't modify other inherited traits -and at Mesolithic, even relatively robust, the people were smaller in West than in east, in Europe: and curiously, the North ones were closer to the West ones for that! so a big part of the nordist people of today are come from East...?

 

[epoch]

it is important and perhaps presomptuous, it could imply there were more than a phylum at European Mesolithic (I think it is so)

That could possibly explain how the Swedes and other Scandinavians have large portions of population that show little decendancy from U4, U5, U mtdna, yet show remarkable autosomal relation to the la Brana finds.

That could work if there was a second mesolithic culture, roughly in France, Belgium and the Netherlands, that had H1 and H3 lineages. There are a lot of hunter-gatherer finds that almost all show U4, U5 or U mtdna. But they are remarkably few, if any, from France and the Netherlands.

 

[T101]

Definitely all in on I2!! Lol! I2a1b was widespread in Mesolithic Europeans (see the Lazaridis paper.)

 

[Maciamo]

Now that we know the Y-DNA of the Loschbour (Luxembourg) and Motala (Sweden) Mesolithic hunter-gatherers, and that both of them are I2a1b, and that the Brana samples are closest autosomally to the Loschbour individual, it seems likely that the La Brana samples were also I2a1. However I maintain that R1a-M17 is also possible.

 

[Sile]

Since Loschbor male is I2a1b with U5b1a and Dolmen male is I2a1a
It seems I2* would be La Brana ..............my I1* choice has gone up in smoke

 

[Alan]

Don't know why but something tells me T had a bigger role during that time than today.

 

[T101]

However I maintain that R1a-M17 is also possible.

Absolutely. The whole Eastern half of Europe from present day Ukraine to the Urals probably contained some R1a-M17 groups.
If ANE was present in Mesolithic Europe, then R1 probably was as well. R1 however with the exception of perhaps R1a-M417/R1a-CTS4385 did not enter Central and Western Europe until after the Neolithic with the Indo-Europeans.

 

[Eldritch]

I exclude any sort of R for sure, i'd say I or maybe E1b.

 

[John123]

Exactly; I was certainly present, probably the first (or among the first) lineages to successfully colonize Europe. Don't leave one line replies by the way you may get blocked by lebrok or Maciamo, the tyrannical administrators.

 

[nordicwarrior]

I'm surprised by how many people are picking "I* or IJ." Does anyone want to justify that pick? I* hasn't been found in modern samples, and IJ has only been found in Iran. Are people supposing that most late Mesolithic DNA was extinct, outlier type subclades?

Yes, that was one of my picks (along with G2a). I went with those two haplogroups because the authors hinted at a surprise result. Nobody1's guess of I2 P37.2 would have been my guess had the researchers not clued us in to expect the unexpected.

 

[Aberdeen]

Yes, that was one of my picks (along with G2a). I went with those two haplogroups because the authors hinted at a surprise result. Nobody1's guess of I2 P37.2 would have been my guess had the researchers not clued us in to expect the unexpected.

Okay, I missed the part about the authors hinting at a surprise result. If I'd noticed that, I would probably gone with T instead of I2.

 

[CLF]

sorry, so far everyone is wrong. You have 10 more days for guessing the right answer...

 

[Angela]

When the authors hinted that the "y" results would be a surprise, was that before or after the announcement of the results for Loschbour?

If it was before, I'd go with La Brana carrying the same y as Loschbour.

If it was after, then I'd say perhaps a type of E1b, perhaps the Berber marker.

 

[CLF]

The authors never hinted that the Y results would be a surprise, I don't know where this comes from. E1b was already chosen, so it is wrong again…sorry

 

[Tabaccus Maximus]

sorry, so far everyone is wrong. You have 10 more days for guessing the right answer...

Ok, this is tricky. You said we are all wrong,
so I will go out on a limb and re-vote Haplogroup C????

I say this because no one has picked it yet. I've wondered about its distribution which strangely seems to have migrated earlier than Q-M242 in the Americas. Someone else on this forum linked it to a Solutrean hypothesis.
If it does turn out to be C*, that would be explosive since it would put it in the right time and place and it would re-kindle some of the speculation of Solutrean-like technology in the Americas.

 

[sparkey]

sorry, so far everyone is wrong. You have 10 more days for guessing the right answer...

In case anybody is wondering, this guy's email checks out. He's the real deal and would know what the results of the upcoming study are.

I'd also guess C out of those that haven't been chosen yet, perhaps C-V20 or a relative of it.