Guess the Y-haplogroup(s) of Mesolithic Iberians (Braña 1 & 2)

What Y-DNA haplogroup(s) will be found in the Mesolithic Iberian samples?


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From what I can tell, the important stuff to know is:

  • La Brana 1 tested positive for C-V20.
  • It is possible that C-V20 is a false reading and that it is actually C* or even C5.
  • The main reason to be suspicious of the C-V20 result is that 3 SNPs that are phyloequivalent to V20 in modern samples are negative in La Brana 1.
  • A more likely reason for the other SNPs being negative than C-V20 being false is that La Brana 1 is on a different branch of C-V20 than modern C-V20, sort of like Loschbour's relationship to modern I2a-Din.

Yes, La Brana Man was definitely some kind of C, so I find it interesting that he probably had blue eyes, although that doesn't seem to be 100% certain. But any C-6 folk currently living in Europe aren't necessarily his direct Y-haplotype descendants - he may not have any at this point. But the disease resistance probably means that hunter-gatherer types didn't die off from diseases when farmers showed up at the same rate they did in other parts of the world, such as the Americas.
 
The building immunity to pathogens is rather a quick process based on natural selection. It goes quickly through the populations like wildfire. We are talking about few years, maybe couple of decades) after time frame, like black death in Europe, or WWI spanish flu. In most cases population rebuilds numbers in few generations. In case of America by 1600 hundreds life was back to normal, well except colonialists being there. Now it's been 500 years since first contact, and immunity seems to be the same across the board.

When we extrapolate it on Europe, farmers meeting hunters, the dying off event could have happened at first encroachment of farmers 8,000 BC and was done couple of hundreds years later. We won't find it later at 6,000 BC the time if Stuttgart or Brania. Most likely it didn't happen at all or much sooner, because of constant contact of both sides through dry Bosphorus bridge.

I can see how it could have happened much sooner. There wasn't an iron curtain at the Bosphorus, and all that is needed for communicable disease to spread is the exchange of one food stuff or trade good. I'll have to look at the results for Loschbour when I get a chance, and see if they tested for this; I know they did for Mal'ta, but I have to look up the results for that too as my memory seems to be letting me down today.

When looking at the autosomal break downs for Amerindians, it's always struck me how even relatively isolated, previously high density areas that show typical Amerindian mtDNA and yDNA have a small amount of admixture. Perhaps it was that admixture that allowed them to survive the ravages of the diseases that the Europeans brought with them.

I do think the genes for blue eyes and dark skin pigmentation are interesting. It should be kept in mind as Aberdeen has noted that the probability score for blue eyes is about 50/50, although it rises for fair eyes, including hazel.

As far as the skin pigmentation genes are concerned, what is really striking is not so much that the individual lacked the two snps that so heavily account for European type pigmentation ( SLC 24A5 and 45A2 ), as Loschbour lacked them too, and Mal'ta. It's that even at this late date he lacks the KITLG gene.

KITLG and AGIP are skin lightening mutations that occurred in Eurasia before the split between West Eurasians and East Eurasians ever happened. He has the AGIP gene, but lacks the KITLG gene, which on its own accounts for up to 20% of the variation between West Africans and Europeans.

I thought all non West African populations had the KITLG gene. Are there any modern populations today that have the AGIP gene but not KITLG? I think the Amerindians have both. I'm not sure about the islanders of Indonesia.

I also think that the artist's reconstruction that has been put out is a little off, and not only in the matter of the skin tone presented. The skull, from my admittedly limited knowledge, has a rather archaic look. How likely is it that it would be paired with such a modern European face? For one thing, the forehead area would seem to me to be much narrower than in the reconstruction, and the cheek bones much higher. I'm reminded of the first reconstruction of Oetzi before the much more extended imaging and testing, and how wrong it was. I just think there is a tendency at first to make these ancient people look more like us, or like some group to which we think they belong.
 
Even if La Brana didn't have blue eyes himself, he tells us that the gene(s) responsible for blue were in the European theater well over five thousand years ago.

Also, I've read several times that he had dark skin. I find this odd because of the seven alleles we can now link to light skin... La Brana had three (two of these alleles were on both sides, and the third was only on one side). So I don't know how dark he could be with these kind of indicators.

Nevertheless, when La Brana's information is paired with the fact that Neolithic Farmers brought their own batch of light skin genes... I think we can put to bed the old eugenics tale of Aryans bringing the "blue-eyed, blond haired" phenotype into Europe.

**EDIT**
I suppose Arayans could have brought blonde hair into Europe at this point.

What I think was more likely though is that light skin, light eyes, and blonde hair were already in Europe... but that either the colder environment or sexual selection focused these phenotypes (Northern Europe/Scandinavia) into what we see today. My bet is on sexual selection.
 
What I think was more likely though is that light skin, light eyes, and blonde hair were already in Europe... but that either the colder environment or sexual selection focused these phenotypes (Northern Europe/Scandinavia) into what we see today. My bet is on sexual selection.
According to the results this La Brana fella is closer to Swedish people than to any other Europeans
 
The building immunity to pathogens is rather a quick process based on natural selection. It goes quickly through the populations like wildfire. We are talking about few years, maybe couple of decades) after time frame, like black death in Europe, or WWI spanish flu. In most cases population rebuilds numbers in few generations. In case of America by 1600 hundreds life was back to normal, well except colonialists being there. Now it's been 500 years since first contact, and immunity seems to be the same across the board.

When we extrapolate it on Europe, farmers meeting hunters, the dying off event could have happened at first encroachment of farmers 8,000 BC and was done couple of hundreds years later. We won't find it later at 6,000 BC the time if Stuttgart or Brania. Most likely it didn't happen at all or much sooner, because of constant contact of both sides through dry Bosphorus bridge.


Well, that didn't happen with Indians and smallpox. The smallpox kept returning and kept taking an enormous toll. Take for instance the Mandan indians - blue eyed, quite relevant to our hunter-gatherers - that experienced several epidemics before their near annihilation in 1837. The die off among Indians was enormous.

The Mandan were first plagued by smallpox in the 16th century and had been hit by similar epidemics every few decades. Between 1837 and 1838, another smallpox epidemic swept the region. In June 1837, an American Fur Company steamboat traveled westward up the Missouri River from St. Louis. Its passengers and traders aboard infected the Mandan, Hidatsa and Arikara tribes.There were approximately 1,600 Mandan living in the two villages at that time. The disease effectively destroyed the Mandan settlements. Almost all the tribal members, including the chief, Four Bears, died. Estimates of the number of survivors vary from only 27 individuals to up to 150, though most sources usually put the number at 125.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandan#Smallpox_epidemic_of_1837.E2.80.9338

Charles C. Mann has written a book about Indian culture before the arrival of the Europeans, called "1491", in which he also described similar effects among Siberian tribes that came into first contact with the Russians. He blames the susceptibility of Indians for epidemics on their genetic makup, mentioning especially the HLA gene.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_leukocyte_antigen
 
I can see how it could have happened much sooner. There wasn't an iron curtain at the Bosphorus, and all that is needed for communicable disease to spread is the exchange of one food stuff or trade good. I'll have to look at the results for Loschbour when I get a chance, and see if they tested for this; I know they did for Mal'ta, but I have to look up the results for that too as my memory seems to be letting me down today.

When looking at the autosomal break downs for Amerindians, it's always struck me how even relatively isolated, previously high density areas that show typical Amerindian mtDNA and yDNA have a small amount of admixture. Perhaps it was that admixture that allowed them to survive the ravages of the diseases that the Europeans brought with them.

I do think the genes for blue eyes and dark skin pigmentation are interesting. It should be kept in mind as Aberdeen has noted that the probability score for blue eyes is about 50/50, although it rises for fair eyes, including hazel.

As far as the skin pigmentation genes are concerned, what is really striking is not so much that the individual lacked the two snps that so heavily account for European type pigmentation ( SLC 24A5 and 45A2 ), as Loschbour lacked them too, and Mal'ta. It's that even at this late date he lacks the KITLG gene.

KITLG and AGIP are skin lightening mutations that occurred in Eurasia before the split between West Eurasians and East Eurasians ever happened. He has the AGIP gene, but lacks the KITLG gene, which on its own accounts for up to 20% of the variation between West Africans and Europeans.

I thought all non West African populations had the KITLG gene. Are there any modern populations today that have the AGIP gene but not KITLG? I think the Amerindians have both. I'm not sure about the islanders of Indonesia.

I also think that the artist's reconstruction that has been put out is a little off, and not only in the matter of the skin tone presented. The skull, from my admittedly limited knowledge, has a rather archaic look. How likely is it that it would be paired with such a modern European face? For one thing, the forehead area would seem to me to be much narrower than in the reconstruction, and the cheek bones much higher. I'm reminded of the first reconstruction of Oetzi before the much more extended imaging and testing, and how wrong it was. I just think there is a tendency at first to make these ancient people look more like us, or like some group to which we think they belong.

Diseases - a near wipeout followed by regrowth makes sense as the Farmer's expansion into Europe was a lot slower than the one into America

(edit I mean, except along the mediterranean coast the HGs had thousands of years to adapt rather than hundreds)

Skin alleles - which ones different populations have or had is very interesting as it could give a clue to the route they took

Reconstruction - narrower forehead, higher cheek bones - i'm thinking more Cheyenne minus some of the unique East Asian facial features

http://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/images/d/d6/Cheyenne-Men-1909.jpg
 
Even if La Brana didn't have blue eyes himself, he tells us that the gene(s) responsible for blue were in the European theater well over five thousand years ago.

Also, I've read several times that he had dark skin. I find this odd because of the seven alleles we can now link to light skin... La Brana had three (two of these alleles were on both sides, and the third was only on one side). So I don't know how dark he could be with these kind of indicators.

Nevertheless, when La Brana's information is paired with the fact that Neolithic Farmers brought their own batch of light skin genes... I think we can put to bed the old eugenics tale of Aryans bringing the "blue-eyed, blond haired" phenotype into Europe.

**EDIT**
I suppose Arayans could have brought blonde hair into Europe at this point.

What I think was more likely though is that light skin, light eyes, and blonde hair were already in Europe... but that either the colder environment or sexual selection focused these phenotypes (Northern Europe/Scandinavia) into what we see today. My bet is on sexual selection.

How relevant is the process of tanning to this i.e. is tanned white skin what it might have been like in the past? (I have no idea how tanning works so this might be very silly.)

.

If two of the light skin genes (the SLC ones) originated in the near or mid east and the IE started from around the Black Sea those genes might have reached the IE first and been spread by both the farmers and IE.

#

Mandan Indians - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandan

(edit: probably nothing, but possibly interesting "18th-century reports about characteristics of Mandan lodges, religion and occasional physical features among tribal members, such as blue and grey eyes along with lighter hair coloring, stirred speculation about the possibility of pre-Columbian European contact.")
 
As far as the skin pigmentation genes are concerned, what is really striking is not so much that the individual lacked the two snps that so heavily account for European type pigmentation ( SLC 24A5 and 45A2 ), as Loschbour lacked them too, and Mal'ta. It's that even at this late date he lacks the KITLG gene.

KITLG and AGIP are skin lightening mutations that occurred in Eurasia before the split between West Eurasians and East Eurasians ever happened. He has the AGIP gene, but lacks the KITLG gene, which on its own accounts for up to 20% of the variation between West Africans and Europeans.

I thought all non West African populations had the KITLG gene. Are there any modern populations today that have the AGIP gene but not KITLG? I think the Amerindians have both. I'm not sure about the islanders of Indonesia.

That is interesting. La Brana 2 seems to have an slight African admixture of 3.2% (if that isn't some noise). Loschbourg at least had both AGIP and KITLG as Europeans have.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6136&d=1386801296
 
That could be due to the fact that La Brana has more mediterranean admixture than more northern hunter-gatherers.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6136&d=1386801296
http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/3393/tvkd.png
Could be, but then again he’s closer to modern day Swedish population then to any modern European Mediterranean one. Southern Europeans have more Mediterranean genes than North European folks. But this La Brana fella is still closer to Swedish population than to Spanish population.
 
This means that ancient native European WHG (West European foragers) aDNA component was dark skinned. And I'm talking about the universal WHG aDNA component among all NATIVE Europeans.
 
This means that ancient native European WHG (West European foragers) aDNA component was dark skinned.

?

Again La Brana had three alleles indicating light skin (of the seven that we know of) so I don't know what his skin tone could have looked like. One of these three alleles was only on one side, but if you do the math... these percentages would certainly have an impact on expressed phenotype.

Speaking of impact, I'm a big idea kind of thinker. By studying the autosomal and paternal hg's of these ancient contributors... what we find is quite a hodgepodge of confounding genetic travel/history.

Up to this point we have concentrated on male warfare to explain European genetics. I think we are on the right track when we also consider disease... but what about this meteor impact during younger Dryas that I've hinted at a few comments ago? Something seems like it really shook up the landscape (genetically) and this might be the explanation, or at least one of them.
 
I think Indo-European tribes brought light skin & hair genes from the Caucasian Mountain range. Before R1b those areas in the Caucasus were and are still dominated by paternal haplogroup J2a (& G2a) folks. And it has been proven that light skin genes evolved in Northern parts of West Asia. It's not for nothing that we say that modern Europeans belong to a 'CAUCASIAN' race.
 
these are C6 markers
F3393+, CTS11043+, CTS11798+, F993+, P53+, V20+, V222+

how do you know CTS11043+ split in Siberia when it was added/announce only this week?

C-CTS11043

Combining information from many sources, CTS11043 was added to the C tree in Jan 2014.

CTS11043 is a subgroup of F3393 and has two subgroups, P122 and V20. CTS11043 has one sister
subgroup, F1370.

Maciamo allready knew about this before :

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#C

Somewhere the ancestors of C1 and C6 must have split.
In Siberia, or before crossing the Hindu Kush?
 
?

Again La Brana had three alleles indicating light skin (of the seven that we know of) so I don't know what his skin tone could have looked like. One of these three was only on one side, but if you do the math these are percentages that would certainly have an impact.

Speaking of impact, I'm a big idea kind of thinker. By studying the autosomal and paternal hg's of these ancient contributors... what we find is quite a hodge podge of confounding genetic travel/history.

Up to this point we have concentrated on male warfare to explain European genetics. I think we are on the right track when we also consider disease... but what about this meteor impact during younger Dryas that I've hinted at? Something seems like it really shook up the landscape (genetically) and this might be the explanation, or at least one of them.
Buddy, you missed this thread on Eupedia? http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ene-was-spread-by-the-Indo-Europeans-(R1a-R1b)
A111T-Canfield-2014.jpg
 
?

Again La Brana had three alleles indicating light skin (of the seven that we know of) so I don't know what his skin tone could have looked like. One of these three alleles was only on one side, but if you do the math... these percentages would certainly have an impact on expressed phenotype.

Speaking of impact, I'm a big idea kind of thinker. By studying the autosomal and paternal hg's of these ancient contributors... what we find is quite a hodgepodge of confounding genetic travel/history.

Up to this point we have concentrated on male warfare to explain European genetics. I think we are on the right track when we also consider disease... but what about this meteor impact during younger Dryas that I've hinted at a few comments ago? Something seems like it really shook up the landscape (genetically) and this might be the explanation, or at least one of them.

O yes, quite possible. Although we need an impact crater for the theory to be firmly convincing and the criticism on the theory, based especially on the fact that megafauna did not disappear simultaniously, is not invalid either. Furthermore, it is mostly megafauna that went extinct, contrary to known impact extinction events, that had a colossal impact on marine life. For instance an awful lot of marine life fossils of known families, orders or even classes can't be found above the K/T boundary. That in itself doesn't disprove this hypothesis, since it thinks of a far smaller impact. However, it does seem strange that it had such impact on megafauna whereas eruptions as Campi Fleigri and Toba did not.

The oddness, however, of mesolthic hunter-gatherers is *later* than those events. And La Brana is not the only mesolthic one to have traces of peculiar admixture. We see American Indian, Paleo-African, Onge.
 
O yes, quite possible. Although we need an impact crater for the theory to be firmly convincing and the criticism on the theory, based especially on the fact that megafauna did not disappear simultaniously, is not invalid either. Furthermore, it is mostly megafauna that went extinct, contrary to known impact extinction events, that had a colossal impact on marine life. For instance an awful lot of marine life fossils of known families, orders or even classes can't be found above the K/T boundary. That in itself doesn't disprove this hypothesis, since it thinks of a far smaller impact. However, it does seem strange that it had such impact on megafauna whereas eruptions as Campi Fleigri and Toba did not.

The oddness, however, of mesolthic hunter-gatherers is *later* than those events. And La Brana is not the only mesolthic one to have traces of peculiar admixture. We see American Indian, Paleo-African, Onge.

Thank you for the comments, Epoch.

Regarding mesolithic H.G., yes they would follow much later than this proposed impact... but if it's as big as I'm thinking it could have been... the after-effects of this collision would be seen for a long, long time.
 
Thank you for the comments, Epoch.

Regarding mesolithic H.G., yes they would follow much later than this proposed impact... but if it's as big as I'm thinking it could have been... the after-effects of this collision would be seen for a long, long time.


Couldn't it be that the diversity was actually the norm? Now, the "inventors of agriculture" were hunter-gatherers too before turning to farmers. That must be as obvious as can be. The first of them must have been a small number of people, experiencing founder effect and genetic drift. Then, as the survival rate of their newborns greatly improves their number explodes.

Perhaps we look at this from wrong perspective and is the uniformity of current day Europe the issue that needs explanation.
 

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