Origins of the Indo-Europeans: the Uruk expansion and Cucuteni-Trypillian culture

I will comment only briefly, first is the mention of the swastika on mammoth ivory..

Originally, I meant to mention this (swastika symbology) in my P-M45 post on mound building and burial practices that are similar between West Asian peoples (R1, R2) and Amerindian peoples (Q-242).
It is a symbol found widely among Native American cultures, the Navajo being one example.
It makes sense that it would be found among Siberian Mammoth hunters given that its occurence everywhere it is found (Asia, Africa, Americas, Europe and the Levant) can be traced to contact between one of its two descendant R* or Q* peoples or their religions. It's presence in Vinca culture of the Balkans, Naqadans of Egypt or the Samarran culture can all be reduced to movements of West Asian peoples IMHO.
It probably belonged to a fairly standard set of preliterate linear symbols that were scratched on ivories very early. R* took is West and South, Q* took it North and East across Beringa.
 
When did the R1a and R1b lineages arrive in the Pontic Steppe and North Caucasus?

I think the transition from the Near Eastern Pre-Pottery Neolithic is the first trickle of R1* lineages in the West. It should be pointed out that this movement almost coincides or is subsequent to the extinction of the mammoth and bison on the Asian steppe. Plus, we now know for certain that at least some (probably all) R* peoples were mammoth hunters in the distant past. Apparently, they were very good at exploiting large game, which was probably also accompanied by a growning human population.

It may be the case that as mammoth herds dwindled they shifted to bison, which were also brought to extinction, again within the same time period. They may have begun moving South to try and exploit other large game, like elephants or wild aurochs. Forced to change their livelihoods, they may resorted to more radical strategies such as 'game management' of animals like the Taurus (cow) whose taming appears to have been attempted in several locations. (probably by the same people). If they gradually shifted from mammoth to bison then a transition to other bovine is reasonable and the attempt at 'managing cattle' may have come from the realization that their killing machine strategy was unsustainable. I still favor a Near Eastern full domestication of cattle, but obviously it had a long history.

There really is no other candidate people that I can think of that would bring Eastern cultural elements (ie. burial patterns, patriarchy, utility pottery, swastikas, infant swaddling, diapering and new religious beliefs) into the West other than R* peoples during the PPNB phase.

Where did they come from before that?

Probably in the vicinity of modern Khazakstan. We know they were in the Yenesian region 24k ybp, also the R* diversity is pretty high in the nearby Khazastanian plain across to Bashkorostan.

If you look a topographical map of modern Khazakstan, what you will note that the 'corners' of this area are roughly:
1. Bashkirostan [NW] (high R* diversity)
2. Yesenesian valley [NE] (Mal'ta and Afontova R*=oldest recorded R)
3. Tarim Basin [SE] (unusual R1a, R1b diversity Xianjiang
4. Turkmenistan [SW] (Caspain,
...to the south the Sar-i Sang mines (lapiz) in Badakhstan which I rate as an important feature for a homeland.
The whole area much later became the Androvono horizon.

What were the influence of older neighbouring cultures, notably on agriculture, cattle and woolly sheep herding, and metal working?

I think modern West Asians (whites) are probably a racial mixture of immigrant R* men and native Middle Eastern women (HV*<). (over-simpified for that equal numbers of men and women of both sets may have contributed genetically but is less evident from uni-parental markers.)

It's also this scenario that best explains why European Neolithic farmers appear Middle-Eastern rather than European. This is because the earliest Neolithic immigrants were PPNA and PPNB.


It's in this post PPNB period that I see the nucleus that became pre-Proto-Indo-European beginning to develop. I'll go out on a limb and say the initial phases PIE developed somewhere in the vicinity of Northern Iraq, Syria, Anatolia, Western Iran from there spread into the Balkans.
 
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Hallo. This is a very interesting thread. I was deply thinking about this topic. Before i start with my theory i want to know how old an what branch I2 in settlements of kurdish area of belong
 
I will comment only briefly, first is the mention of the swastika on mammoth ivory..

Originally, I meant to mention this (swastika symbology) in my P-M45 post on mound building and burial practices that are similar between West Asian peoples (R1, R2) and Amerindian peoples (Q-242).
It is a symbol found widely among Native American cultures, the Navajo being one example.
It makes sense that it would be found among Siberian Mammoth hunters given that its occurence everywhere it is found (Asia, Africa, Americas, Europe and the Levant) can be traced to contact between one of its two descendant R* or Q* peoples or their religions. It's presence in Vinca culture of the Balkans, Naqadans of Egypt or the Samarran culture can all be reduced to movements of West Asian peoples IMHO.
It probably belonged to a fairly standard set of preliterate linear symbols that were scratched on ivories very early. R* took is West and South, Q* took it North and East across Beringa.

I haven't previously heard of Native Americans using the swastika symbol and I was wondering if you know whether this is something that's common to all tribes or just some. You mentioned that the symbol is used by the Navaho, who happen to be one of the tribes that speak a Dene language. This may be relevant because although the first wave of people in the Americas apparently arrived about 15,000 years ago, some archeologists believe that the Dene arrived in a second wave, about 8,000 years ago. So certain symbols and practices could be common to both Eurasia and the Americas without necessarily having to be +15,000 years ago. However, if these symbols and customs go back to the ancient mammoth hunters, one would expect to find them among most Native American tribes.
 
@Adberdeen: As a step-son of a Chinook, I can assure you that oral tradition is how we presented history instead of writing it.

Although it appears watching documentaries in Native Latin America over the years that symbols were written
 
@Adberdeen: As a step-son of a Chinook, I can assure you that oral tradition is how we presented history instead of writing it.

Although it appears watching documentaries in Native Latin America over the years that symbols were written

But it is also preserved in symbols "printed" on cloths and comforters. Almost like writing.
 
I haven't previously heard of Native Americans using the swastika symbol and I was wondering if you know whether this is something that's common to all tribes or just some. You mentioned that the symbol is used by the Navaho, who happen to be one of the tribes that speak a Dene language. This may be relevant because although the first wave of people in the Americas apparently arrived about 15,000 years ago, some archeologists believe that the Dene arrived in a second wave, about 8,000 years ago. So certain symbols and practices could be common to both Eurasia and the Americas without necessarily having to be +15,000 years ago. However, if these symbols and customs go back to the ancient mammoth hunters, one would expect to find them among most Native American tribes.


It was used widely among the Mississippian Cultures, Woodland Culture and throughout the Southwest. It was also used in some Meso-American cultures but I'm not sure which or how clearly depicted. You mention a possible later migration about 8,000 or so, I have also thought that a possibility and I suppose that would have to be true to show a genetic relationship between Na-Dene and Yenesian, which I think has been shown.
 
That's the first time I see that, but if it is indeed a precursor to the Indo-European swastika that would mean that would confirm that cultural traits, and perhaps also linguistics ones, could be transmitted for many millennia even before the development of civilisations. Fascinating.

What also piqued my interest is that the sub-Saharan African R1b1c (V88) is found essentially among the Fula people, who are nomadic, pastoralist cattle herders, just like Bronze Age Indo-Europeans in the steppe. That is a pretty amazing coincidence since R1b-V88 is thought to have split from the branch of R1b1a (P297, the ancestor of the Proto-Indo-European M269) approximately 15,000 years ago, i.e. a few millennia before the domestication of cattle in the Near East. Now both dates could be wrong. Cattle domestication could have taken place a bit earlier and the split between the two R1b branches could have happened later, in which case it would be possible that the very first people to domesticate and herd cattle were R1b1 (P25) people, who then split in three groups: V88 in the Levant and Africa, M335 in Anatolia, and P297 (M269 + M73) in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe. R1b1-P25 is found around eastern Anatolia and Armenia, where cattle are thought to have been domesticated. It would make perfect sense.

I stumbled onto something even more amazing :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#North_America

If all that is true, the swastika should be originating from Mal'ta people.
There is R1 among nativ (north-) Americans.
Some ascribe all of this to contamination by early European colonizers.
But I believe this R1 is coming from Mal'ta. Some travelled northeast to follow mammoths and along the way developped the precursor of the Clovis knife (Dyuktai culture)
 
Your I2a theory is incorrect in my opinion, I challenge it. I believe I2a was once found all across Europe with a center of weight/origin in Central Europe before some type of environmental/natural phenomenon pushed them into the Bosnian refuge where they are still most numerous today. Early European cultures such as Aurignacian have been linked to the men of y-DNA I.

Haplogroup I isn't linked to Aurignacian(45.000-31000). It is linked to the Gravettian culture (32.000-22.000). The origin of Haplogroup I cant be central Europe, because this Haplotype came from Anatolia that means this people must go first through the Balkans to come to center Europe. And there is one more important point. It is the Ice Age. People at Ice Age where centered in South and South East Europe, thats is "natural", because the north was unhabitable.

Settlement of Gravettian cultrue (Ice Age):

Sorry cant post links. Just google for it.
 
Indeed the swastika is very interesting, there are many theories about it, but let look from an archeological view. The oldest swastika were found in Ukraine Mezin(10000bc). There is also a direct link to the Ice Age and mammut hunters of the stepes.
Later we can find the swastika in neolithic Balkans.(starcevo körös cris complex). Vinca culture is the most prominent example. So where is the link between starcevo körös cris and the mezin hunters from ukraine. In my eyes the people from Mezin where the ancestors of the neolithic balkan cultures outside of greece. Sure there was a big impact of neolithic movements from south east (anatolia/levante) araound 6500-6000bc. But the people from starcevo körös cris complex adapted the tehnoligical advantage and transformed it for their self benefid. The art of starcevo körös cris complex has both sides, one is anatolian neolithic the other is european mesolithic. Just watch the art of mezin culture in ukraine. It s obvious.


So what is my conclusion?
When we say Haplogroup is pre neolithic in Europe and was "centered" in south-east europe, because of the Ace Ice. It is possible that the starcevo körös cris cultures were carriers of hapogroup I. This opens a new question for me. Where does Haplogroup I came from in kurdish area? We have some archeological facts that are linked to balkans in neolithic times. Its the time of Halaf and Hassuna Samarra Culture. The art and lifestyle was indeed similiar, because of the anatolian/levante complex. But there is artwork which isnt a part of anatolian/levante complex. As example the swastika. This Swastika is 5500-5000bcyears old. Around 5600bc there was a big flood around the black sea. Around 5500 the Ubaid time begins. Please watch the earliest ubaid artwort, it is very similiar to balkanic artwork. whatch the shoulders of their figurines and the morphological aspekt and compare them with the art of the vinca culture.
Couldn't it be that the ubaid people where people from the balkans which lived around the black sea? this could exlain how haplogroup I2 came to kurdish area where this cultures exists millenia before.
 
The history of the Indo-Europeans is relatively clear from the Maykop and Yamna periods onwards, as I have described in the R1b and R1a pages on this site. The biggest question marks in my head at the moment are:


- When did the R1a and R1b lineages arrive in the Pontic Steppe and North Caucasus ?
- Where did they come from before that ?
- What were the influence of older neighbouring cultures, notably on agriculture, cattle and woolly sheep herding, and metal working ?


Maciamo. In dont thinks people of cucuteni were exclusive r1b and r1a carriers. You forgot that the cucuteni culture evolved from the starcevo körös cris. There was indeed influence from bug-dniester culture. In my eyes the cucuteni culture could be the cradle of I.E origin. The timeline fits perfect. Linguists linked I.E speakers always with the development of the car and the wheel. Archeological facts prove that the erliest evidence of "wheel" and car came from the cucuteni triplian culture, see: Cucuteni-Trypillian cow-on-wheels, 3950-3650 B.C. People from the steppes adapted it from this advanced culture. Don't forget that cucuteni was by far the most devolpet culture in the world at that time.


But what happend beforce 4000bc? We know that there was always a peacfull exchange with cultures from the steppest. this cultures could be r1b and r1a carriert. bug dniester culture is a good example.
before gimbuntas theory of barbaric expansion of Kurgan peoples. this people were peacufull neolithic farmes which where influenced by anatolian/levante complex and the starcevo cörös cris. so the people known for long time each others.


The cucuteni triplian culture seems for me a perfect melting point for people from the balkans and the stepes and it could explain how the aryan movement to the "east" carriersd artwork(swastika) and religion(belief in the trinity in vedic Trimurti) from neolithic balkans to india.
You ask youreself now: Trinity? The Vinca culture beliefed in the holy trinity. There were found many figurines with 3 fingers, 3 foods and also the geometric art of faces symbolizes the triangle. i don't know if the cucuteni culture has similiar belieft, but if they had it, it could explain "how the vedic" religion evolved.

 
Haplogroup I isn't linked to Aurignacian(45.000-31000). It is linked to the Gravettian culture (32.000-22.000). The origin of Haplogroup I cant be central Europe, because this Haplotype came from Anatolia that means this people must go first through the Balkans to come to center Europe. And there is one more important point. It is the Ice Age. People at Ice Age where centered in South and South East Europe, thats is "natural", because the north was unhabitable.

Settlement of Gravettian cultrue (Ice Age):

Sorry cant post links. Just google for it.



it is not of too much worth for this very thread but I precise (again) that there were human settlements at the latitude of southern Belgium and Moravia during the strongest of Last Glaciation - perhaps they were not permanently occupied (sommer only?) but they were! for South East Europe it is only a "good sense" statement because settlements there were very very seldom, for I know even if it seems surprising.
 
If we rely on N-E Romania (Bessarabia-Moldavia) Y-DNA distributions (tiny sample it is true) where Y-R1b seems very scarce (more than in other places of Romania), for previous Cucuteni culture, Y-R1b was not typical at all in this late culture (the strong elements were Y-E-V13 and Y-J2b, not even Y-R1a -
 
it is not of too much worth for this very thread but I precise (again) that there were human settlements at the latitude of southern Belgium and Moravia during the strongest of Last Glaciation - perhaps they were not permanently occupied (sommer only?) but they were! for South East Europe it is only a "good sense" statement because settlements there were very very seldom, for I know even if it seems surprising.

You are totally right. I didn't mean that there weren't settlements in north europe during Ice Age. But its just logical that the most living being always chose habitats that fit most to them and in human case that are warmer regions like south europe.
 
If we rely on N-E Romania (Bessarabia-Moldavia) Y-DNA distributions (tiny sample it is true) where Y-R1b seems very scarce (more than in other places of Romania), for previous Cucuteni culture, Y-R1b was not typical at all in this late culture (the strong elements were Y-E-V13 and Y-J2b, not even Y-R1a -

And what is with I? And where is G2?
 
Lol, kidding. XP

On the side note, I just stumbled on a link claiming that the Pre-Maykop/Pre-Celtic Tribes called themselves the Circaesir in apparently Modern Kazistan. Just wanted to put it out there for either objections or able to produce logic. http://www.angelfire.com/home/thefaery5/
 
And what is with I? And where is G2?

I think a 'southern' people (broad meaning) element was present around the Black Sea from the earlier Neolithic period and that other people of close stock later introduced metals - so I' do'nt exclude Y-G2 bearers at all but they appear being scarce enough there nowadays - Y-E1b was there with Y-G2 and with some first Y-J2 - at metals ages came maybe other Y-G2 but it is not evident - MORE (maybe other SNPs) Y-J2 came more numerous then, I think - the Cucuteni-Tripolje culture with its huge towns seems to me the result of successive Anatolia-Near-Eastern waves of geographically close enough populations even if with improving new cultural skills (we can estimate the autosomals 'sardinian' or 'west-central-mediterranean' was stronger among the first waves, 'west-asian-/'caucasian' stronger among the metals waves, as a bet) - at some stage of evolution, Cucuteni-Tripolje involved by acculturation local population of Y-I2a1 from the Carpathian highlands, but maybe the osmose never became "average" and the Y-I2a element remained stronger in North than in South (S: close the Black Sea) -
by the way I was just gaving some partial data about Bessarabia, knowing current DNA could mistake us concerning ancient DNA - just a matter for brain-strom !

(I cannot go further in details by lack of archeoligic knowledge baout western Black Sea shores)
 

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