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Thread: Origins of the Indo-Europeans: the Uruk expansion and Cucuteni-Trypillian culture

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    A lot of your post is coming out bold because you're taking a bold stance on the subject, Angela, and I can agree with it all except for the India part. One of the mysteries about IE is why it's a fairly structured and formal language, according to the linguists, when one would expect a nomadic culture that's probably racially mixed to speak a simplified language. Another mystery is where a group of pastoralists got some of the technology, such as bronze smelting. That's probably why some of the older threads that I've looked at here mention the probability of Yamnaya having been influenced by Maykop, with the specifical cultural traits that made the IE expansion possible being the combination of bronze working with a nomadic warrior culture. In other words, the Maycop contributed the bronze smelters and the Yamnaya contributed the aggressiveness and love of expansion. However, I do think that haplotypes did relate more to specific cultural groups back then than at present, and the association of R1a with Vedic invaders in India suggests to me that they were Yamnaya and not just "Armenian". Plus, if we still want to see Corded Ware as an early IE horizon in Europe, I can't see them as Maykop.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    A lot of your post is coming out bold because you're taking a bold stance on the subject, Angela, and I can agree with it all except for the India part. One of the mysteries about IE is why it's a fairly structured and formal language, according to the linguists, when one would expect a nomadic culture that's probably racially mixed to speak a simplified language. Another mystery is where a group of pastoralists got some of the technology, such as bronze smelting. That's probably why some of the older threads that I've looked at here mention the probability of Yamnaya having been influenced by Maykop, with the specifical cultural traits that made the IE expansion possible being the combination of bronze working with a nomadic warrior culture. In other words, the Maycop contributed the bronze smelters and the Yamnaya contributed the aggressiveness and love of expansion. However, I do think that haplotypes did relate more to specific cultural groups back then than at present, and the association of R1a with Vedic invaders in India suggests to me that they were Yamnaya and not just "Armenian". Plus, if we still want to see Corded Ware as an early IE horizon in Europe, I can't see them as Maykop.

    You're giving me way too much credit for both computer skills and subtlety. Since this site times you out so quickly, I sometimes write my posts first on Word. I must have inadvertently clicked bold on there before transferring. (I just had it de-bugged and all the programs updated, and it now has a hair trigger response! I just have to pass over a part of the screen to link to underlying icon. You should see some of the movies that I've inadvertently linked to on amazon.com lately! )

    I'm also not quite sure why you think I have bold opinions on this subject. I didn't count, but I think I put an awful lot of question marks in the post, and statements that there's a lot I don't know. All I was attempting to do was put together a reasonable theory about what the Reich Lab people might be seeing as the pattern based on very fragmentary leaks and quotes in articles, and papers which I have read.

    I won't know whether that's what they will ultimately say, and I don't know whether I will find their analysis persuasive at that point or not, in terms of the linguistics and culture side at least. As far as the genetics are concerned, they haven't always been right, as they showed with Moorjani at all, but they seem to be not only very well versed in statistics and "computational biology", but rather circumspect in most of their conclusions, and open to, and in fact looking forward to refining their genetic models as new samples become available. They also do extraordinarily exhaustive modeling. So, if they do indeed say that Maykop was genetically Armenian like, and that turns out to mean EEF/ANE, and they have sampled, or have modeled populations like the Armenians, or Indo-Iranians, and they don't have WHG, I would be inclined to accept their conclusions about that. The make up of the people in the western steppe or the eastern steppe might very well be different, and different at different times as well.

    Now, as to culture and technical innovations, I know there is disagreement about the sources, and plenty of opposing papers, but it looks to me, and perhaps to them, that a lot of it came from the Caucasus or south of it. If for no other reason, let's just say that the idea of wandering pastoralists with their rough carts, one step away from living in a cave or a yurt, suddenly becoming master metal workers and dragging around huge furnaces strikes me as a little implausible, shall we say. I wouldn't bet my house on it though. Who knows what more research will show?

    So, again, if the upcoming papers show a match between the genetics and the source of most of the culture, what then about language? Are people so wedded to the Pontic Caspian theory suddenly going to make a 360 degree turn and say that the language was independent of the genetics and the culture? It's fine by me, but it's quite a switch. As I predicted in a prior post somewhere, if the genetics results prove unpalatable for internet types, I predict we'll see so many twists and turns of logic that pretzel shapes will seem simple!

    As to the linguistic arguments about Indo-European, I find that the internet types are far more emphatic than the scholars themselves. There's an awful lot that isn't clear, as there is a lot that isn't clear about the whole topic. J.P. Mallory certainly sees issues with all the theories (I think he calls the Pontic Caspian one the "least bad" theory.) You wouldn't know that from internet posters, however.

    I'm not competent to judge some of the finer points of the linguistics debate. (One linguistics course at university absolutely doesn't count!) I think, however, that the very fact that proto-Indo-European is so structured, as you say, might be additional evidence that it indeed arose in a more settled culture like that of Maykop, which was at the same time adjacent to the steppe. In terms of India, the movement, to my understanding, was, even according to the proponents of the Pontic-Caspian theory, through Bactria, so, whatever the subsistence strategy of these people when they arrived, I'm sure it was quite different when they left and got to India. The fact that Sanskrit is such a formal, archaic language might also, perhaps, have a great deal to do with the fact that it is a ritual language. How much has Latin changed in two thousand years?

    I'm rather bemused, also, by this insistence that Maykop could not, under any circumstances, be the center of Indo-Euroean, because of the Uralic influences on Indo-European. Maybe I'm missing something, but is it settled where and when precisely Uralic was spoken at the time in question? What if it was spoken around the Volga? Would that be close enough for some borrowing to have occurred?

    (I apologize to the linguists among us if I've made a hash of this part.)

    As to the haplogroups involved, we don't know yet what y lines any of these people carried. (I do wish they'd publish these darn papers so that we do, as the closer we get to Christmas, the less time I'll have for any of this!) What if the ancient hunter gatherer group way to the east in Samara was N? Or C? How do we know yet that they were R? Even if they were, how does that change anything? I think we just have to wait and see the precise subclades of the lineages carried by all of these people. At any rate, I would be surprised if all the people involved in even the initial spread of IE were all of the same yDna. I think of them sort of like the Vikings. Look at Rollo and his band, and the "Normans" who supposedly descended from them, and brought French to England (not that it took, given that in that case there weren't enough of them). How mixed were they by that point? My understanding is that they included men within their ranks from the "native" people of "Normandy" within a few generations, and then added men from Brittany, men from the Low Countries, eventually Anjou etc. Why couldn't the same thing have happened with the Indo-Europeans? Very large amounts of admixture are common in many "steppic groups". How many different cultures were absorbed by the Huns? How many strands of yDna were there in that "group"? All of this is separate and apart from the yDna of whatever region it is finally concluded (in our lifetimes? ) formed the heart or urheimat of proto-Indo-European.

    Anyway, none of this can be known or even seriously conjectured about until we have the ancient samples analyzed, and the more the better. I think it will be very interesting to discover the y Dna lines not only of Maykop, and Samara, and the western steppe, but of the Kura Axes people, and to find out if the Afanisievo people really did carry R1b, and the nature of their autosomal make up.


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    it is in and around this topic, but not linked to tightly to the last posts -
    I reserve my thoughts for later if they have some value

    it 's just a very controversial book written by Jean-Paul DEMOULE in frenc: "Les Indo-Européens? Le mythe d'origine de l'Occident"
    "pure legend", he said, to deny the jewish origins of the european culture - glup! gargle! a glass of water, please

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    A lot of your post is coming out bold because you're taking a bold stance on the subject, Angela, and I can agree with it all except for the India part. One of the mysteries about IE is why it's a fairly structured and formal language, according to the linguists, when one would expect a nomadic culture that's probably racially mixed to speak a simplified language. Another mystery is where a group of pastoralists got some of the technology, such as bronze smelting. That's probably why some of the older threads that I've looked at here mention the probability of Yamnaya having been influenced by Maykop, with the specifical cultural traits that made the IE expansion possible being the combination of bronze working with a nomadic warrior culture. In other words, the Maycop contributed the bronze smelters and the Yamnaya contributed the aggressiveness and love of expansion. However, I do think that haplotypes did relate more to specific cultural groups back then than at present, and the association of R1a with Vedic invaders in India suggests to me that they were Yamnaya and not just "Armenian". Plus, if we still want to see Corded Ware as an early IE horizon in Europe, I can't see them as Maykop.
    I fid your post logical enough, Aberdeen - the PIE language doesn't seem either a franca lingua or a largely spred and mobile language or any kind of stuff like that - so I'm tempted to attach it to a firstly steady enough population, culturally already well developped - the theory of mountains and big lake is maybe true, i've not studied the question of intitial lexicon in I-E! I only know today meanings of works can very well abuse us - if I should decide to receive this theory, I could say nevertheless other regions than Caucasus-South Caspian can be convenient; not too far, but not exactly there -

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    I’ve studying haplogroup for some time and it seems like in the Paleo Meso era R1b was mostly located in Eastern Europe and Siberia Stretched West until the Alpine region and East to the Altai Mountains or Lake Baikal and North of the Danube and Caucascus Mountains then when the Neolitic era began most men carrying R1b traveled with there cattle they domesticated South into Central Asia and Northern Middle East and some of those into Africa and from the Northern middle East around Anatolia into Europe and lots settled around modern Germany then R1a came in from Central Asia the Indo Europeans into Eastern Europe assimlating R1bs who moved West and the the ones in and around Germany also moved West making R1b today most common in Western Europe. Please respond with commonents or anything you disagree with

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    HAYZOO
    then R1a came in from Central Asia the Indo Europeans into Eastern Europe assimlating R1bs who moved West and the the ones in and around Germany also moved West making R1b today most common in Western Europe. Please respond with commonents or anything you disagree with
    https://cache.eupedia.com/images/con...ration-map.jpg

    https://cache.eupedia.com/images/con...ration_map.jpg

    According to these maps R1a and R1b tribes or peoples come from Yamnaya, it would mean that both of these peoples already speaking Indo-European language in Yamnaya and as Indo-Europeans come to Europe.

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