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Thread: I-M253-T13 =>52% I-L22-N =>35% question and new member

  1. #1
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    I-M253-T13 =>52% I-L22-N =>35% question and new member

    Greetings all, I'm a new member from the USA.

    I've recently had a yDNA 67 marker test, and found out I'm not who I think I am. My surname is not related to my genes.

    Looking at my ySTR to try to figure out possible and likely subclades I might belong in. At least until SNP tests resolve that.

    I discovered based on several markers the below is an estimate of my haplotype, but don't know how to translate them to entries in the haplotree.

    I-M253-T13 =>52% I-L22-N =>35%

    Here's some key values:
    DYS455 = 8
    DYS390=23
    DYS511=10
    DYS617=13

    and then this odd result

    DYS385=13-13

    I don't know how to try to figure out which subclade or subclades the M253-T13 might fall into.

    I do have one 66/67 match in FTDNA who is confirmed as I1d1 or I-P109. However, no one in P109 so far has had a DYS385b of 13. I get the the I-L22-N contains the I-P109 subclade, and I'd think I should have a much higher probability than 35%, except for that DYS385b marker.

    Any thoughts? I'm currently waiting for results from a P109 SNP test. But that'll be a month or more before I know, probably.

    Thanks,
    Jack

  2. #2
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnJackD View Post
    Greetings all, I'm a new member from the USA.

    I've recently had a yDNA 67 marker test, and found out I'm not who I think I am. My surname is not related to my genes.

    Looking at my ySTR to try to figure out possible and likely subclades I might belong in. At least until SNP tests resolve that.

    I discovered based on several markers the below is an estimate of my haplotype, but don't know how to translate them to entries in the haplotree.

    I-M253-T13 =>52% I-L22-N =>35%

    Here's some key values:
    DYS455 = 8
    DYS390=23
    DYS511=10
    DYS617=13

    and then this odd result

    DYS385=13-13

    I don't know how to try to figure out which subclade or subclades the M253-T13 might fall into.

    I do have one 66/67 match in FTDNA who is confirmed as I1d1 or I-P109. However, no one in P109 so far has had a DYS385b of 13. I get the the I-L22-N contains the I-P109 subclade, and I'd think I should have a much higher probability than 35%, except for that DYS385b marker.

    Any thoughts? I'm currently waiting for results from a P109 SNP test. But that'll be a month or more before I know, probably.

    Thanks,
    Jack
    hi

    Your DYS385 which is 13-13 has the highest % ( 9% ) from central asia..............I have the same.

    at least you don't need to do the kittler test with your DYS385
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    hi

    Your DYS385 which is 13-13 has the highest % ( 9% ) from central asia..............I have the same.

    at least you don't need to do the kittler test with your DYS385
    That's all well and good, except, I'm not Asian.

    I'm mostly Irish on my father's side and mostly Germanic on my mother's side.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnJackD View Post
    That's all well and good, except, I'm not Asian.

    I'm mostly Irish on my father's side and mostly Germanic on my mother's side.
    And neither am I asian ...........but some past ancient times, since there was no europeans, you came from somewhere...either via africa or asia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    ... you came from somewhere...either via africa or asia
    Well naturally, but we're talking about a subclade of the I haplogroup, which did originate only in Europe, and in the I haplogroup the value of 13-13 for the DYS385 is uncommon. Very uncommon. That is my point.

    But none of this diversion, is really helpful in helping to figure out where I would fit in the I1 haplotree.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnJackD View Post
    Well naturally, but we're talking about a subclade of the I haplogroup, which did originate only in Europe, and in the I haplogroup the value of 13-13 for the DYS385 is uncommon. Very uncommon. That is my point.

    But none of this diversion, is really helpful in helping to figure out where I would fit in the I1 haplotree.
    check the
    ISOGG site on the net under haplogroup I


    you do not have AGgen which means anglo saxon, but you have T13 which means transitional. all transitional comes from denmark, but not the mainland, could be one of its islands

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    Hi Captain Jack, welcome to the site. Here's my two cents... the "odd result" STR markers that you pointed out have a pretty high mutation rate. The fact that your DYS 385 is 13-13 doesn't mean as much as if your 455 marker was an unusual number (and yours at 8 is not). So I would concentrate on the areas of the code that tend to be more stable because I think you will get more dependable information from those readings. Your having a DYS 385 at 13-13 might help you find a close paternal relative like a first, second or third cousin, but probably won't aid you in finding your historical tribe.

    Also, the Anglo-Saxon/Ultra North/Transitional catagories don't hold a lot of sway with me. Check out the maps on Family Tree DNA for the various I1 SNP's and their corresponding flagged locations... these boundaries are much less defined than supporters of this fixed AS/uN/Transitional system would have you believe. I1 has been a highly mobile group (due to their affinity for boat travel), so I think these classifications are too rigid at this point.

    There does seem to be a SNP line specific to Finland (L258), but take a look at the M253, P30, and L22 maps... the scatter shot is pretty vast.

    But all that being said, you having a DYS 390 of 23 and a historical link on the paternal side to Ireland... start reading about the Vikings!
    Last edited by nordicwarrior; 14-12-13 at 16:48.

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    Thanks Nordic! That's helpful, as I was having a hard time reconciling the haplotype categories with the haplotree as well. I was thinking, I'm just not knowledgeable on the subject and there was some other link I was missing. I was reading a lot of what Ken Nordtvedt was doing and trying to map from one to the other, but could find a way to do that. As far as the Vikings go, I've studied Irish history extensively, and have a good grasp on the howtos and wherefores of their influence, and my wife is Scandinavian, so I'm adding some Norse genes into the family gene pool again.

    So, I'll feel a bit better about my theory, and time will tell how good I am at this. Although if it works out, it might be a complication for Ken's work. As it now turns out that, including me, three of the 10 O'Dwyer y chromosome have the 13-13 marker, and we all likely are I1d1 or I-P109. Which will shake things up a bit over in the I-P109 group.

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    Haplogroup I represents about 5% of Portuguese, 4% of Andalusian, 3% of Catalan, 6% of basque, 8% of bearnais and welsh, 4% of Corsican, 7% of Latvian, 3% of apulian, 9% of Sicilian, 5% of Calabrian, 7% of central italian and 5% of north italian lineages, for example. It can also be found at 5% in the Madeiras and Azores islands as well while the Swiss have 8%. Estonians have 19% I surprisingly, and the Saami of northern Scandinavia have about 30%. Both Norwegians and southern swedes have 40% I whereas the northern swedes only have 25%. Greeks have about 14% whereas the Moldovans have exactly double that. Romanians have 22% and the Macedonians have a surprising 30%. Albanians have 24% and the Bosnians have 42%. Both the Croatians and Slovenians have a whopping 38% I. Sardinians have 42%. Denmark has 39% I and holland has 27%. Germany has a massive 38% hg I. The scots and Irish have 11% whereas the English have 18%. Southern France has 16% and low-normany has 24%. The Lyon region only has 3%.
    Last edited by adamo; 16-12-13 at 10:39.

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    Poles 18%, Czechs and Slovaks 14%, Hungarians 23%, Belorussians 20%, Ukrainians 22%, Russians 5-20%.

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    Sardinia has 40% I-M26 and the Castile region of Spain has 20% I-M26 as well, indicating this branch either sprung up in France or on the Iberian peninsula before moving onto Sardinia. Bearnais (8%) and basque (6%) have traces of I-M26 as well, everywhere else in Western Europe (and all Europe) it is found at less than 5%.

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    The highest variance of I-P37.2 seems to indicate it is oldest among Bosnian (0.93) and Croats (0.85) but is equally old among Czechs and Slovaks (0.90) the youngest variance are found in turkey and Moldova, for example. The men of haplogroup I are linked to gravettian culture of the middle upper Paleolithic period of Europe (28,000-23,000 years ago.)

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    The highest frequencies of I* are found in southern France (5%) and low Normandy (5%). Then Slovenians (4%), Saami people (3%) and Andalusians (3%). I1a is found at a maximum of 39% of Norwegians (one can say 100% of their I is I1a), 36% of southern swedes, 29% of Saami, 26% of northern swedes (both the latter are quasi 100% I1a as well.) 25% of germans, 17% of Dutch, 15% of Estonians, 12% in low Normandy and 11% of Slovenians; unfortunately subclade data on Danes was not provided but expect a heavy I1a predominance. I-M227 was found in 2% of Macedonians and Slovenians. I-P37.2 was found in a maximum of 40% of Bosnians, 31% of Croats, 22% of Moldavians, 20% of Slovenes, 18% of Romanians and Macedonians, 17% of Albanians and 8% of Greeks. I-M26 is found in 41% of Sardinians and 20% of Castillans. I-M223 is found in 13% of Germans and 10% in holland. It can be found at 5% in both low Normandy and southern France. 4% of southern swedes and Albanians also belong to I-M223, not to mention 3% of central Italians.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    The highest frequencies of I* are found in southern France (5%) and low Normandy (5%). Then Slovenians (4%), Saami people (3%) and Andalusians (3%). I1a is found at a maximum of 39% of Norwegians (one can say 100% of their I is I1a), 36% of southern swedes, 29% of Saami, 26% of northern swedes (both the latter are quasi 100% I1a as well.) 25% of germans, 17% of Dutch, 15% of Estonians, 12% in low Normandy and 11% of Slovenians; unfortunately subclade data on Danes was not provided but expect a heavy I1a predominance. I-M227 was found in 2% of Macedonians and Slovenians. I-P37.2 was found in a maximum of 40% of Bosnians, 31% of Croats, 22% of Moldavians, 20% of Slovenes, 18% of Romanians and Macedonians, 17% of Albanians and 8% of Greeks. I-M26 is found in 41% of Sardinians and 20% of Castillans. I-M223 is found in 13% of Germans and 10% in holland. It can be found at 5% in both low Normandy and southern France. 4% of southern swedes and Albanians also belong to I-M223, not to mention 3% of central Italians.
    It depends of the area.
    Some Bosnians I am sure have over 50% from I-P37.2
    As for Moldovans,some area (Neamt county from Romania) was found to have 40% of I-P37.2 .
    The area from Romania,Moldavia which has such a high percentage have the name associated with Germans (Neamt in Romanian,you would say to a German,in folk language) and is also quite mountainous and was covered with dense forests.
    There it was once of the highest spruce from Europe,it had 62 m ,so I think this population was quite isolated,maybe from more than 1000 years or even 1500 years.
    You should know that both people from Bessarabia/Republic of Moldavia and people from most Eastern part of Romania (called Moldavia) are called Moldovans and are Moldovans,being most light skinned and light haired from all Romanians.
    They are much more light skinned than the people from Bosnia,so I think only paternal lines are closed,but autosomal admixture is not.

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    Glad to help, Jack.

    I think each of these approaches can have it's uses... kind of like tools on a tool belt. Surname tracing has it's obvious flaws, STR classification isn't yet perfect, and the SNP tree has it's drawbacks right now, but combining each facet can help build a complete picture. It's helpful to remember that this is uncharted genetic territory-- overall I think we're getting a handle on I1's gene flow.

    We've been very lucky to rely on both the work of Ken Nordtvedt and Terry Robb to get I1 members to this point. And when you consider the progress that Nordtvedt has made without the benefit of SNP results (he started his research before SNP testing was performed)-- it's mind boggling really.

    Pattern identification and number crunching on steroids!
    Last edited by nordicwarrior; 14-12-13 at 23:22.

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    What surprises me most is the nearly 40% membership to I found in Germans! higher than I thought.

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    But all that being said, you having a DYS 390 of 23 and a historical link on the paternal side to Ireland... start reading about the Vikings![/QUOTE]

    The men in my paternal line have a DYS 390 of 22. What would that indicate? I'm trying to find info because the GGG grandfather we all share (Benjamin Moore b. abt. 1808 in North Carolina) is our dead end.

    Our boys are I-M253. I have copied two of their y-DNA results below hoping someone will see this and help me out as to where I can begin digging into research to see if I can come up with any answers. Also, paternal line last name = Moore.

    Thanks in advance!

    Moore sample #1:

    13 22 14 10 13-14 11 14 11 12 11 29 15 8-9 8 11 23 16 20 28 12-14-15-16 11 10 19-21 14 13 16 21 34-38 12 10 11 8 15-15 8 11 10 8 9 9 12 23-25 16 11 12 12 15 8 14 27 20 13 13 11 13 11 11 12 11

    Moore sample #2
    13 22 14 10 13-14 11 14 11 12 11 29 15 8-9 8 11 23 17 20 28 12-14-15-16 11 10 19-21 14 13 16 21 34-37 12 10 11 8 15-15 8 11 10 8 9 9 12 23-25 16 11 12 12 15 8 14 27 20 13 13 11 13 11 11 12 11 34 12 8 16 12 23 27 19 10 12 12 13 11 9 11 11 10 12 12 31 11 13 21 16 11 10 23 15 17 11 24 17 12 16 25 12 22 18 12 14 18 9 12 12
    Moore sample #3
    13 22 14 10 13-14 11 14 11 12 11 29 16 8-9 8 11 23 17 20 28 12-14-15-16 11 10 19-21 14 13 16 21 34-38 12 10 11 8 15-15 8 11 10 8 9 9 12 23-25 16 11 12 12 15 8 14 27 20 13 13 11 13 11 11 12 11 34 12 8 16 12 23 27 19 10 12 12 13 11 9 11 11 10 12 12 31 11 13 21 16 11 11 23 15 17 11 24 17 12 16 25 12 22 18 12 14 18 9 12 11
    Moore sample #4

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