haplogroup I split during LGM

I'd guess Spain for I-M26 (20% Castille region) and I'd go as far as to speculate basque language somehow derived for these men's cultural influence.
 
I'd guess Spain for I-M26 (20% Castille region) and I'd go as far as to speculate basque language somehow derived for these men's cultural influence.

What's interesting about the Basques is that they have some of the highest I2-M26 diversity, but not particularly high R1b diversity. It seems plausible that they could have originally been an I2-M26 dominant population, which drifted to become an R1b dominant population due to bottlenecks/expansions/foreign drift/etc.
 
I agree with what you have stated.
 
All possible, still very speculative. One concern I have with placing I2a2 in Poland is that its two modern clades seem to have highest diversity around Germany. Of course, the center of diversity could have moved, but it leaves a slight reservation, and makes me lean more toward Ahrensburg.

Is there evidence that Swiderian came from the Epigravettian, by the way? I thought it was linked more closely with Franco-Iberian type cultures like the Solutrean and Magdalenian. The Epigravettian didn't seem to like to cross the Alps.

I'm not an expert, but some differences have been noted between Swiderian and cultures descending from Franco-Iberian (Hamburger, Federmesser etc.).
But I don't know about an explicit link to epigravettian.
I think Swiderian must be either Franco-Iberian or Epigravettian, I don't see an alternative.
Swiderian originated in southern Poland, with a 300 year gap (retreat southwards) during youngest dryas.

I have read about 'some similarities' between cultures along the Danube (upstream from and earlier than Lepenski Vir) and 'Italy'.
Also this site mentions epigravettian east of the adriatic 17000 years ago :

http://www.oldstoneage.com/montetwhite/kadar.html

As far as I know south of Danube remained depopulated untill neolithics came.
 
Yeah, I would guess most of the "I*" in that study to be L38+, especially in France. Probably much of it in the Balkans and elsewhere is I2b/I2c instead. Andalusia is indeed curious, although I do know of Extremaduran I2-L38 in public databases, so that again seems most likely. The deepest in Spain I've seen L596+ is Aragon.

Hello Sparkey, can you give me a hint where to look for public databases?
 
Hello Sparkey, can you give me a hint where to look for public databases?

FTDNA projects are usually the first place I go, because they're the quickest to look through. I find them by Googling things like "ftdna i2a," "ftdna m223," etc. depending on what I'm looking for.

To do a deeper dive on an individual haplotype, YSearch is excellent, and SMGF sometimes helps (and gives a less geographically biased result). Semargl.me is a pretty good aggregator with maps. I've even gotten data out of WorldFamilies, 23AndMe, and Ancestry.com before, and of course there are other databases out there as well.
 
FTDNA projects are usually the first place I go, because they're the quickest to look through. I find them by Googling things like "ftdna i2a," "ftdna m223," etc. depending on what I'm looking for.

To do a deeper dive on an individual haplotype, YSearch is excellent, and SMGF sometimes helps (and gives a less geographically biased result). Semargl.me is a pretty good aggregator with maps. I've even gotten data out of WorldFamilies, 23AndMe, and Ancestry.com before, and of course there are other databases out there as well.

thanks for your comments and info
 
Long series of SNP's separating I1 from I2. I1 only started expanding after a bottleneck representing at least 10,000 years of isolation.

I'm sorry but I'm not following your train of thought. Let's say hypothetically that I1 and I2 stayed geographically close... these long series of SNP variations SHOULD be there after so many thousands of years no matter the geographical distance. Unless I'm missing some mysterious back migration that skips over paternal lineages?
 
I think I've figured out what you mean... it's the lack of "middle ground" between I1 and I2 that you are referring to. I don't think the I1-I2 SNP differences prove isolation as much as the missing links between the two groups might.

But each of these groups wasn't neccessarily isolated... either or both could have blended with other paternal macro-lines (like hg. N for I1 and hg. G for I2 for example). Also the influx of maternal lineages could have freshened the genetic pot from time to time.

Maybe the most accurate phrasing here would be to say that I1 and I2 were seperated from each other somehow (by ice sheets?) and were kept apart for a lengthy period of time.

Call me biased, but I don't think the Nordic populations look like they've suffered a sustained population threatening genetic bottle-neck-- certainly not one that lasted eons anyway.

If so they've seemed to recover okay.
 
All possible, still very speculative. One concern I have with placing I2a2 in Poland is that its two modern clades seem to have highest diversity around Germany. Of course, the center of diversity could have moved, but it leaves a slight reservation, and makes me lean more toward Ahrensburg.

Is there evidence that Swiderian came from the Epigravettian, by the way? I thought it was linked more closely with Franco-Iberian type cultures like the Solutrean and Magdalenian. The Epigravettian didn't seem to like to cross the Alps.



I really doubt I2a1a expanded from Sardinia. It surely expanded into it based on Sardinian phylogeny. I'd guess France instead.

I2a1b has a subclade with an apparent major Slavic expansion (I2a1b3a going by ISOGG), but it also has plenty of subclades with greater diversity elsewhere. Its other subclades seem to have high diversity in Britain and Germany, with a known outlier sample from Iraq (just to confuse us more). I2a1b is really tough to pin down.

IMO, the give away is that I2a1a and I2a1b actually didn't branch away from each other directly. The branching event was rather between {I2a1a, I2a1*-NF, {I2a1c, I2a1*-Alpine}} and {I2a1b, I2a1*-F}. The first indeed seems to have its highest diversity in France, with the I2a1c branch perhaps pulling us just a little east. The second helps show that the original location of that branch was probably not too far away from I2a1a's origin, because the other member of that group is French.



I2b phylogeny is very poorly studied, but I think there's something to say about I2c yet, like that I2c-PF3881 has an apparent minor association with Celtic expansions, and I2c* has a more eastern tendency, with interesting apparent expansions in the Caucasus and Anatolia (largely among the nobility interestingly), among Eastern European Jews, and within the former Venetian Republic. Extrapolate backwards and link it to its largely Adriatic I2b cousin, and the branch looks a little more likely Adriatic than Franco-Iberian to me. But its split in diversity between both sides of the Alps muddies the water a lot.



That would be even tougher for me to guess than Spain. I'd lean "not I," because modern haplogroup I diversity isn't very strong around there. But then again, modern haplogroup I had to have come from somewhere to the east, right?

Is this the spread you have in mind?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Homo_Sapiens_in_Europe_-_magdalenian_distribution_map-de.svg

I2a1 spread along with Magdalenian 17-12000 years ago and even further east.
It is not just a few individuals, it is a full grown tribe splitting gradually into I2a1a, I2a1c and finally I2a1b.

Then I2a2 and I1 should have gone north before I2a1 ?

Who was in Iberia, also I2a1, or did they go extinct, replaced by I2a1a and Neolithics?
I see your case for I2a1a coming into Sardinia later, from southern France or northern Spain.
 
What's interesting about the Basques is that they have some of the highest I2-M26 diversity, but not particularly high R1b diversity. It seems plausible that they could have originally been an I2-M26 dominant population, which drifted to become an R1b dominant population due to bottlenecks/expansions/foreign drift/etc.

It is very interesting conclusion. But there must be reasons why I2 population in the Basque Country and Spain reduced or not re-grown.
 
In terms of percentage the basque have very low I-M26. In terms of actual age/diversity they have the oldest forms of I-M26 in the basque samples that are positive for it, I stipulated that a few days ago.
 
In terms of percentage the basque have very low I-M26. In terms of actual age/diversity they have the oldest forms of I-M26 in the basque samples that are positive for it, I stipulated that a few days ago.
The most basal forms of M26 are found in Germany (2nd most basal in France/British Isles) as far as I know. Most spanish samples fall under downstream clades and I really doubt that M26 had a spanish origin. Imo M26 originated in Germany and expanded from France. That's what SNPs say and I usually trust SNP data.
 
The most basal forms of M26 are found in Germany (2nd most basal in France/British Isles) as far as I know. Most spanish samples fall under downstream clades and I really doubt that M26 had a spanish origin. Imo M26 originated in Germany and expanded from France. That's what SNPs say and I usually trust SNP data.

Last I checked, the L277+ outlier branch was split between Western Germany and some presumably Spanish Mexican samples, indicating that that branch centers around France like the main L672+ branch (although L672+ has an interesting Spanish outlier itself). The greatest outlier of M26 is a Sudeten German family, but they don't have any other samples to compare against, so it's hard to say much about their branch and how it might anchor M26 as a whole. See Cullen here, here, here, etc. It will be interesting if we get more distant German outliers, but M26's cousins are French or nearby, and its well studied branches are French or centered around there, so even if the outlier branch turns out to be solidly German, it would seem more likely that the outlier branch is the one that moved, not the rest.
 

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