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Thread: Early European Lineages

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    The only known mesolithic hunter-gatherer with mtDNA H outside of Iberia and Italy is found in a Northwestern Russian site called "Small Reindeer Island". While most samples from there are actually mtDNA U and its subclades, quite a number also C we do have a known H there.

    http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/...l.pgen.1003296

    Now check Mal'ta in K=20: He has a quarter Kalash admixture! The Kalash are pale skinned, blue eyed and there is quite some blonde hair: They are called the Pakistan whites. They are connected to Indo-Europeans, even though their mtDNA as well as Y-DNA shows a lot of other influences.

    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/s...1/001552-1.pdf

    This does not mean that Mal'ta was the forefather of the Kalash. It does mean, however, that a genetic pool existed that connects ancient north-Eurasian from this study - which is baasically Ma'ta - to Indo-Europeans living somewhere in central Eurasia. Since we know that Yamna culture already had H, HV and U combined, was blonde haired and blue eyed.

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-and-eye-color

    Now, we know that at least two examples of mesolithic WHG were darkhaired and of dark pigmentation - I really would like to know if we need to think melanesian of olive skinned here - and that EEF were darkhaired and fair skinned. That leaves only the Indo-Europeans to bring in the blonde blue eyed part of Europe.

    We know mal'ta was dark skinned - again, how dark I can't find but he shows slight relation to Andamese and Melanese - but Mal'ta seems like a mixture himself. That would seem to make calculating the admixture percentage of that part a bit skewed. So when we look at a tiny ANE admixture we might actually look at a part of the actual Indo-European admixture. The rest would be looking like WHG: Related to the Karelian samples

    http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/.../originalimage

    Does this sound like a start to a solution?
    What it sounds like is that you are trying very hard to prove blonde hair and blue eyes come from somewhere other than Europe.

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    I know that hair and eye colour aren't dependent on haplotype, but I have Y haplotype I1, and have golden brown hair (now with some grey) and blue eyes. I wonder how many other I1 people who have a predominantly northern European background (as most I1s do) have light hair and blue eyes? I suspect both light hair and blue eyes developed somewhere in Europe, with light hair developing perhaps among blue eyed people who were predominantly I1. Although it's becoming somewhat of a mystery where I1 originated, there's not much doubt that it was somewhere in Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I know that hair and eye colour aren't dependent on haplotype, but I have Y haplotype I1, and have golden brown hair (now with some grey) and blue eyes. I wonder how many other I1 people who have a predominantly northern European background (as most I1s do) have light hair and blue eyes? I suspect both light hair and blue eyes developed somewhere in Europe, perhaps among people who were predominantly I1. Although it's becoming somewhat of a mystery where I1 developed, there's not much doubt that it was somewhere in Europe.
    I have medium brown hair and blue eyes (which is pretty typical), although i was blond/light brown until puberty pretty much (which is also fairly typical). The only general thing i can see among the I1's in my family is that they are/were big and robust, and seem to have a talent for unarmed combat. xD My father and grandfather are actually darker than average in terms of skin and hair tone, but both have light eyes and were fair in childhood.
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    Same for my grandfather; italian origin, I2a, hi liter wooly blond hair and extreme light blue/grey eyes. These features seem more common in I lineage males, I actually posted a photo of him in the guess the ethnicity section....remarkably handsome man, my mother passed his looks to me although I have brown hair and brown eyes!

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    It's funny cause in terms of what I know, everything other than my direct paternal T marker is European! (2x mtdna H and 1x y-DNA I2a, although there's much more to a persons genome of course). I look a lot like my maternal grandfather but with straight brown hair and brown eyes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    I doubt that most of the ancient time Indo-Europeans were dominated by Uralic speakers. It appears more like Indo-Europeans more and more replaced Uralic speakers in East Europe. From Corded Ware in Northeast Europe to Scythians in the steppes and Ural mountains.

    The reason why Uralic speakers share Haplogroups with Indo-European speakers is because of related origin. Since Dravidian, Caucasian, Uralic, Indo-European share one origin.

    You do understand that Uralics moved from the Volga-Kama area in to the Baltic region after the IE and held most of European Russia until the Slav expansion 1000 yrs ago?

    There is no way around it, either they where of the same stock or the Uralics dominated, I know many of you hate both but pick one.

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    The Yakuts are a good example of a small group of N1c men coming and ruling the locals.

    Then we have Rurik in Sweden/Russia and Gediminas in Lithuania, maybe a statistical fluke.
    I agree that it could turn out to be of Indo-European origin, we being of the same stock and all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    What it sounds like is that you are trying very hard to prove blonde hair and blue eyes come from somewhere other than Europe.
    First, I don't try to prove anything at this point. Prove for whatever theory will come when we have far, far more samples. This is all merely speculation.

    Secondly, forget about the blonde thing if you so wish: The main idea is that part of WHG admixture came with the third component of european admixture in this study: ANE. And that the combined influx of ANE and part WHG was due to indo-europeans.

    Thirdly, there is the idea that blonde hair and blue eyes evolved rather late, during the neolthicum. And we only have only few european examples where skin colour and hair colour are being sampled but these do not come up with blonde hair.

    So possibly it could turn out that we also find examples of blonde mesolithic hunter-gatherers. Or possibly it all evolved later. But it does look surprising that where ever indo-europeans are found some sort of blonde and blue eyes appear, be it in historical sources - ligurians described as having "auburn hair" - or in current day appearance. It could mean nothing, it could be the source of current day blondeness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It's not only *these* hunter-gatherers who are darker skinned than Oetzi...so was Mal'ta...it seems to me that the evidence so far is that lighter skin did not appear in Europe until at least the Neolithic. While today, skin pigmentation correlates very well with amounts of solar radiation, this was obviously not always true. I don't think anyone yet knows the factors that brought about depigmentation, but part of the answer may indeed be that snow and ice conditions would not favor fairer skinned people. Also, until the Neolithic took hold, much of western Europe was forest. I would suggest that diet may have played a role.

    I still think that diet may have played a role as well. Lactase tolerance also is not present in any of these people, and I think is undoubtedly tied to the rise of dairy farming.
    But Mal'ta was an East Siberian hunter-gatherer, not a European one. Siberians and Native Americans have darker skin than Europeans even today.
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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Or possibly Uralic and Indo-Europeans were basically of the same stock. On a high level connections between the language families have been found, possibly beyond simple loanwords. The hunter-gatherer bearing mtDNA H comes from the neighbourhood of Karelia.

    Where we need to keep in mind that language similarities not always mean genetic ties.
    I understand that but most of the language shifters, aka I-E folk, forget that more often.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Davidski has made a test with these three components.

    http://bga101.blogspot.fi/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idun View Post
    Davidski has made a test with these three components.

    http://bga101.blogspot.fi/
    Nice. What also would be interesting is to see a number of neolithic and bronze age samples broken down to WHG, ANE, EEF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idun View Post
    You do understand that Uralics moved from the Volga-Kama area in to the Baltic region after the IE and held most of European Russia until the Slav expansion 1000 yrs ago?

    There is no way around it, either they where of the same stock or the Uralics dominated, I know many of you hate both but pick one.
    Please provide me with some sources for this. When exactly was this? I have never heard of that. in any time frame Uralics ruled over Russia. It is more likely that they fled back into Russia when the Corded Ware replaced Uralic speakers in Northeast Europe and Scythians ruled over the whole Ural Region + the Steppe Region.

    Elite Dominance is visible in Finns themselves. Which are paternally very high in Haplogroup I*, a Germanic Haplogroup.

    Most lineages which are shared between Uralic and Indo European speakers are based on maternal Haplogroups. It's not like this is something so rare that it must be the result of "Elite dominance". Considering that even Caucasian groups share most of their mtDNA with Indo-Europeans, everything else beside same origin, sounds ridiculous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Please provide me with some sources for this. When exactly was this? I have never heard of that. in any time frame Uralics ruled over Russia. It is more likely that they fled back into Russia when the Corded Ware replaced Uralic speakers in Northeast Europe and Scythians ruled over the whole Ural Region + the Steppe Region.

    Elite Dominance is visible in Finns themselves. Which are paternally very high in Haplogroup I*, a Germanic Haplogroup.

    Most lineages which are shared between Uralic and Indo European speakers are based on maternal Haplogroups. It's not like this is something so rare that it must be the result of "Elite dominance". Considering that even Caucasian groups share most of their mtDNA with Indo-Europeans, everything else beside same origin, sounds ridiculous.

    Yep, Uralics are tree hugging hobbits that fled to the trees always when they saw the big bad Aryan coming.

    You are seriously saying Uralics have been fleeing around Eurasia back and forth? How did they come back to the Baltic area after they fled? Or they where there first?
    How did they keep their language? Impressed it to the Germanic masters?

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Nice. What also would be interesting is to see a number of neolithic and bronze age samples broken down to WHG, ANE, EEF.
    I dont think we have to wait long. =) And the migration period samples they are getting is big news for this new year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Please provide me with some sources for this. When exactly was this? I have never heard of that. in any time frame Uralics ruled over Russia. It is more likely that they fled back into Russia when the Corded Ware replaced Uralic speakers in Northeast Europe and Scythians ruled over the whole Ural Region + the Steppe Region.

    Elite Dominance is visible in Finns themselves. Which are paternally very high in Haplogroup I*, a Germanic Haplogroup.
    Until the eastward Slavic expansion, Northeastern Europe was dominated by Uralic speakers, I have never seen any source claim anything else. What other group would have been there?

    The Finns were not dominated by any elite until they were incorporated into Sweden around 1200-1300. I dont see how that relates to any of this though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    Until the eastward Slavic expansion, Northeastern Europe was dominated by Uralic speakers, I have never seen any source claim anything else. What other group would have been there?

    The Finns were not dominated by any elite until they were incorporated into Sweden around 1200-1300. I dont see how that relates to any of this though.
    And I consider the times we had common history, Finland was part of Sweden proper, hate those that try to deny that.
    Birger was a maniac that killed his own people first and then came to Finland ending the old rule.
    But mostly good times compared to rest of Europe after that, Finns as individuals where still free citizens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    If the population of northern Germany and Pomerania had been swept up in the expansion of the Corded Ware culture, we would expect a population in which R1a is dominant, and the rest being a blend of various Mesolithic (I1, I2) and Neolithic lineages (E, G, J, T), but with surely a larger Neolithic faction since farmers could keep much larger populations than hunter-gatherers. I can think of three other possibilities, but all pretty far-fetched:

    1) I1 hunter-gatherers of northern Germany adopted agriculture on their own by copying their LBK neighbours, or absorbing a tiny number of LBK lineages. I1 farmers then spread agriculture to Scandinavia, where hunter-gatherers belonged to I2a1 (Motala). Since the autosomal DNA of Gök4, a Neolithic farmer from Sweden, was clearly Near Eastern, it renders the possibility of I1 introducing agriculture extremely unlikely.
    However, consider this: Pitted Ware culture was not solely hunter-gatherer. They kept pigs, to give an example. Furthermore, while Bell Beaker Gök4's autosomal DNA clearly shows the same Near Eastern tendency there is archeological evidence for continuity from hunter-gatherer towards agriculture in several cultures along the North Sea coast - the Swifterband culture, the Ertebolla culture and others - which, before DNA testing came by, gave rise among Dutch archeologists to the idea the spread of agriculture in all of Europe was a case of diffusion. And that may increase the possibility that at least part of agriculture was due to hunter-gatherers making the switch. Furthermore, there is evidence of burial custom continuity from mesolithic times at the edges of LBK culture area.

    http://arheologija.ff.uni-lj.si/docu...Plenneis34.pdf

    So how to explain the current genetic finds? Well, consider this: LBK were wheat growers, and maybe the converted HG were not. Maybe we currently like to sample LBK and Bell Beaker samples because we consider them typical for the spread agriculture? Maybe that is biased towards wheat growers on loess grounds and therefore biased to the Near Eastern genetic influence?

    Currently I would say genetic evidence is against this. But not definitively against this scenario, not until more samples have been taken. We might be surprised when the big number of samples start to come in.

    http://the-rise.se/
    Last edited by epoch; 28-12-13 at 22:10. Reason: readability

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    Until the eastward Slavic expansion, Northeastern Europe was dominated by Uralic speakers, I have never seen any source claim anything else. What other group would have been there?

    The Finns were not dominated by any elite until they were incorporated into Sweden around 1200-1300. I dont see how that relates to any of this though.
    I think you misunderstood. No one said Northeastern Europe was not dominated by Uralic speakers before Indo-Europeans expanded, and it wasn't actually me arguing that Indo-Europeans dominated the Uralic speakers, but him with his Aryan=Slave theory. But as you said they were slowly replaced by Baltic and Slavic speakers. But Idun claimed that the reason for shared Haplogroups is that there was some kind of Uralic "Elite dominance" on top of the Indo-Europeans.
    Last edited by Alan; 29-12-13 at 03:23.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    I think you misunderstood. No one said Northeastern Europe was not dominated by Uralic speakers before Slavs expanded, and it wasn't actually me arguing that Indo-Europeans dominated the Uralic speakers, but him with his Aryan=Slave theory. But as you said they were slowly replaced by Baltic and Slavic speakers. But Idun claimed that the reason for shared Haplogroups is that there was some kind of Uralic "Elite dominance" on top of the Indo-Europeans.

    They must have pitied Uralics and let them have their women also and keep our language, pity on the rest that had to give it all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idun View Post
    They must have pitied Uralics and let them have their women also and keep our language, pity on the rest that had to give it all.
    You are so pure and superior that my eyes hurt looking at your pristine beauty. Did it ever occured to you that nobody really cares about this, but you? It is actually sick when you brag about this every time you can. Sadly for you, nobody gives a shit what you are.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    You are so pure and superior that my eyes hurt looking at your pristine beauty. Did it ever occured to you that nobody really cares about this, but you? It is actually sick when you brag about this every time you can. Sadly for you, nobody gives a shit what you are.

    I sense tension, want to arm wrestle?

    Someone has to bring new perspective when all you hear is the one track humming from some of the I-E folk.

    Last time I heard in cab from a Kurd driver that I was related to the Turks and he was related to the other Europeans.

    I dont really care for most of you, I would like a big wall around the north and you can degenerate away in peace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idun View Post
    I sense tension, want to arm wrestle?

    Someone has to bring new perspective when all you hear is the one track humming from some of the I-E folk.

    Last time I heard in cab from a Kurd driver that I was related to the Turks and he was related to the other Europeans.

    I dont really care for most of you, I would like a big wall around the north and you can degenerate away in peace.
    This is a very old perspective, old as humankind, of racial purity and racial or ethnic group superiority. You're banned for racism.

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    To try to get the thread back on its initial subject, I thought that LeBrok phrased the issue well.


    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Very interesting paper.
    So it means that 4th wave of population, the Indo Europeans, didn't bring much of autosomal change. If not their strong paternal Y influence and the language, we wouldn't be able to guess from autosomal DNA correlation and comparison. Or perhaps they were already strongly mixed with ANE in West Asia and East Europe and with EEF of Anatolia, and lacking their unique autosomal signal?
    So basically, either IE folks were a small elite who imposed their language and culture without massively changing the autosomal DNA correlation or the folks living in the IE homeland had an autosomal DNA correlation similar to what was already in western Europe at that time. If it's the latter, does this tell us anything more about who the IE folk were and where they came from?

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    LMFAO, his solution is "want to arm wrestle"; the heck is wrong with this guy?? Righteously banned! I sense the tension, want to arm wrestle? Boom; banned! And no more tension to sense! I "sense" his next post was going to be significantly more aggresive: )

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