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Thread: Early European Lineages

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Yeah, I think in particular many Indo-Europeans brought even more ANE to europe, besides west asian. This would explain why almost all europeans are closer to ANE today than to WHG in the PCA map. Ironically, some Finno-Ugric peoples would be autosomally closer to the some original Indo-Europeans too. Loschbourg looks suspiciously isolated in PCA plot, even more than La Brana.
    Hii! I answer you and others by the way - I had not enough time (for a low speed brain) to exploit this post in Europgenes - very interesting indeed -
    I had the chance to see the face look of the skull of Looschburg, "WHG" - isolated? not too amazing: he has the more rugged more archaïc type of crania I never saw among Mesolithic people: a kind of "super-Brünn" non evolved type!!! (not Cro-Magnoid!)

    not all first farmers DID MIX (as a whole) firstable:but the story was not always the same as time passed - some colonies travelled quickly and far without heavy mixing - but if we have some small confidence in anthropology, we see the western Germany farmers LBK or post-LBK were sometimes of dominant mesolithical origin (diverse levels of mixture with 'cromagnoids' and 'brünn-capelloids' with few Near-Easterners accretions) , bordering other LBK settlements with strong Near-Easterners weight (and these last ones later descendants as far as Normandy and Alsace and Île-de-France Eneolithic-Chalcolithic)-
    the Y-I2a1 presence in Scandinavia is a kick to my old religion!!! but I already wrote I think a lot or the present days Y-I1 in Scandinavia came lately enough (proto-germanic times?) from South, after gathering (pooling?) and osmose with Y-R1b-U106 and Y-R1a (some Y-R1a were passed before them into Scandinavia?) - I think these Y-I1 stayed for the most Souththe Baltic shores stretching from Denmark to Estonia before being drown under Y-N + Y-R1a pre-Baltic (Ugric?) and Baltic people -
    I 'm not sure these South Baltic shore dwellings did not see since long ago some Y-R-U106 too?, even before Y-R1a...

  2. #102
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    [QUOTE=MOESAN;423873]
    I had the chance to see the face look of the skull of Looschburg, "WHG" - isolated? not too amazing: he has the more rugged more archaïc type of crania I never saw among Mesolithic people: a kind of "super-Brünn" non evolved type!!! (not Cro-Magnoid!)

    not all first farmers DID MIX (as a whole) firstable:but the story was not always the same as time passed - some colonies travelled quickly and far without heavy mixing - but if we have some small confidence in anthropology, we see the western Germany farmers LBK or post-LBK were sometimes of dominant mesolithical origin (diverse levels of mixture with 'cromagnoids' and 'brünn-capelloids' with few Near-Easterners accretions) , bordering other LBK settlements with strong Near-Easterners weight (and these last ones later descendants as far as Normandy and Alsace and Île-de-France Eneolithic-Chalcolithic)-

    I add: this kind of neolithical culture of West Germany (and surroundings) with a mesolithic type population is the one called Michelsberg culture

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    Elite Dominance is visible in Finns themselves. Which are paternally very high in Haplogroup I*, a Germanic Haplogroup.

    Is y haplogroup I* germanic?Wow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    Elite Dominance is visible in Finns themselves. Which are paternally very high in Haplogroup I*, a Germanic Haplogroup.

    Is y haplogroup I* germanic?Wow.
    I thought it was from modern Bosnia and it chased the herds up north as the ice cap melted, finally settling around Hanover to hamburg areas...........that where remains have been found
    Last edited by Sile; 11-01-14 at 20:08.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    ...he has the more rugged more archaïc type of crania I never saw among Mesolithic people: a kind of "super-Brünn" non evolved type!!! (not Cro-Magnoid!)...
    The irony here is that Idun got banned for racism.

    I think we need to appreciate everyone's viewpoint. Who wants to have a conversation with a room full of people that nod in agreement with everything you say?

    Idun should not have been banned. If you read the thread closely, it was the moderator that lowered the level of conversation first. This was not handled properly.

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    He also wanted to get physical via engaging in discussion about overpowering and arm wrestling by the way, not that I had anything against the fellow.

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    Which is pretty over the edge and messed up either way you look at it XD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I thought it was from modern Bosnia and it chaser the herds up north as the ice cap melted, finally settling around Hanover to hamburg areas...........that where remains have been found

    Bosnia showed very few human remnants for Paloe-Mesolithic - I suppose you can abandon this theory - I see Y-I* and first downstreams rather closer to middle lattitudes of Central Europe, from N-France to Carpathians, during the LGM and after - I speak here of the bulk of the population - at more remote origin they could have been born in E-Anatolia S-Caucasus???
    Concerning Y-I1 among Finns, it is almost sure the first ones came from S-Baltic (at Chalcolithic?) with a battle-axes culture, so maybe I-Ean but not already germanic speaking (more a proto-baltic or even proto-satem?) - agricultors ("beginners") - other Y-I1 could arrive there after, from Scandinavia -
    by the way, it seems that among Eastern Finns (Carelia), the elite was of Y-N1 type, of N-siberian component (partly mongoloid only), taking NE european females -
    just my opinion

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Hii! I answer you and others by the way - I had not enough time (for a low speed brain) to exploit this post in Europgenes - very interesting indeed -
    I had the chance to see the face look of the skull of Looschburg, "WHG" - isolated? not too amazing: he has the more rugged more archaïc type of crania I never saw among Mesolithic people: a kind of "super-Brünn" non evolved type!!! (not Cro-Magnoid!)

    not all first farmers DID MIX (as a whole) firstable:but the story was not always the same as time passed - some colonies travelled quickly and far without heavy mixing - but if we have some small confidence in anthropology, we see the western Germany farmers LBK or post-LBK were sometimes of dominant mesolithical origin (diverse levels of mixture with 'cromagnoids' and 'brünn-capelloids' with few Near-Easterners accretions) , bordering other LBK settlements with strong Near-Easterners weight (and these last ones later descendants as far as Normandy and Alsace and Île-de-France Eneolithic-Chalcolithic)-
    Thank you! I start to wonder whether "Cro-Magnoid" actually ceased to be exclusively european long time ago, because Cro-Magnoid skull shape is defined by the old Cro-Magnon which is over 30000 years old and because such skulls else have been found 10000 years ago in north Africa (Afalou, Mechta), where WHG component is absent. Maybe this type partly defined the Caucasoids in general. It would be funny if it turns out that the mesolithic "Cro-Magnons" are less Cro-Magnoid than say Indo-Europeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Hii! I answer you and others by the way - I had not enough time (for a low speed brain) to exploit this post in Europgenes - very interesting indeed -
    I had the chance to see the face look of the skull of Looschburg, "WHG" - isolated? not too amazing: he has the more rugged more archaïc type of crania I never saw among Mesolithic people: a kind of "super-Brünn" non evolved type!!! (not Cro-Magnoid!)

    not all first farmers DID MIX (as a whole) firstable:but the story was not always the same as time passed - some colonies travelled quickly and far without heavy mixing - but if we have some small confidence in anthropology, we see the western Germany farmers LBK or post-LBK were sometimes of dominant mesolithical origin (diverse levels of mixture with 'cromagnoids' and 'brünn-capelloids' with few Near-Easterners accretions) , bordering other LBK settlements with strong Near-Easterners weight (and these last ones later descendants as far as Normandy and Alsace and Île-de-France Eneolithic-Chalcolithic)-
    the Y-I2a1 presence in Scandinavia is a kick to my old religion!!! but I already wrote I think a lot or the present days Y-I1 in Scandinavia came lately enough (proto-germanic times?) from South, after gathering (pooling?) and osmose with Y-R1b-U106 and Y-R1a (some Y-R1a were passed before them into Scandinavia?) - I think these Y-I1 stayed for the most Souththe Baltic shores stretching from Denmark to Estonia before being drown under Y-N + Y-R1a pre-Baltic (Ugric?) and Baltic people -
    I 'm not sure these South Baltic shore dwellings did not see since long ago some Y-R-U106 too?, even before Y-R1a...
    Was this more robust type always in Europe by the side of Cro Magnons, or it came later from North Asia? Or maybe it was a product of Cro Magnons living high North for few millennia?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Bosnia showed very few human remnants for Paloe-Mesolithic - I suppose you can abandon this theory - I see Y-I* and first downstreams rather closer to middle lattitudes of Central Europe, from N-France to Carpathians, during the LGM and after - I speak here of the bulk of the population - at more remote origin they could have been born in E-Anatolia S-Caucasus???
    Concerning Y-I1 among Finns, it is almost sure the first ones came from S-Baltic (at Chalcolithic?) with a battle-axes culture, so maybe I-Ean but not already germanic speaking (more a proto-baltic or even proto-satem?) - agricultors ("beginners") - other Y-I1 could arrive there after, from Scandinavia -
    by the way, it seems that among Eastern Finns (Carelia), the elite was of Y-N1 type, of N-siberian component (partly mongoloid only), taking NE european females -
    just my opinion
    I was referring to these articles and others which I will add
    http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index....esticated-pigs

    By the way, on cro-early europeans.......their is an ID ( CJWJS) placed in ysearch to test ones Cro-Magrons.
    I have 18 or 19 markers exact..........then again I have a high Neanderthal reading of 3.1

    http://www.dainst.org/sites/default/...sch.pdf?ft=all

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Bosnia showed very few human remnants for Paloe-Mesolithic - I suppose you can abandon this theory - I see Y-I* and first downstreams rather closer to middle lattitudes of Central Europe, from N-France to Carpathians, during the LGM and after - I speak here of the bulk of the population - at more remote origin they could have been born in E-Anatolia S-Caucasus???
    Concerning Y-I1 among Finns, it is almost sure the first ones came from S-Baltic (at Chalcolithic?) with a battle-axes culture, so maybe I-Ean but not already germanic speaking (more a proto-baltic or even proto-satem?) - agricultors ("beginners") - other Y-I1 could arrive there after, from Scandinavia -
    by the way, it seems that among Eastern Finns (Carelia), the elite was of Y-N1 type, of N-siberian component (partly mongoloid only), taking NE european females -
    just my opinion
    To begin with, there is no historically attested ruling elite in Finland until around 1100-1300 AD, when Finland was incorporated into what would become Sweden. The three Finnish tribes (Finns, Tavastians and Karelians) lived partly as farmers and partly as hunters/fishers. Finland was so sparsely populated, due to the cold climate, that there simply was not much to rule over. Any elite ruler theory fails, IMO.

    The Siberian component in Northeastern Europe peaks in the Arctic region. It is highest in Norweigan Saami, and it is also high along the whole Arctic coast, whether Slavic- or Uralic speaking. Siberian-ness is simply something which has been native to the region for a long time. Eastern Finland has a historically attested Saami population, which is the most likely explanation for the higher Siberian admixture there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    The irony here is that Idun got banned for racism.

    I think we need to appreciate everyone's viewpoint. Who wants to have a conversation with a room full of people that nod in agreement with everything you say?

    Idun should not have been banned. If you read the thread closely, it was the moderator that lowered the level of conversation first. This was not handled properly.
    could yout explain me what your post has to do with my one concerning Looschburg man traits?
    maybe my word "not evolved" catched your attention? it is a descriptive shape stating, not an opinion about real intellectual capacity or something close...I 'll read the Idun posts (I have no remembrance for now)- in what thread were they?
    (I regreat my word "archaic" which has not big precision: at the same time we see populatiosn showing more or less or no "brutal" so called "archaic" traits... true 'cromagnon' had not, spite seeming "older" in place)-


    &: I believe (without to much proofs and without paying too much attention) that the more "brutal" looks are often linked to a sort of practical intelligence, less interested by verbal theories - and since a long time yet I think I see in societies the alliance of these two kinds of complementary intelligences - but this last problem of intelligence linked to genetics is to unsteady and controversal and I have no right to pretend having some knowledge so I leave it to other forumers or posters -
    have a good Sunday

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    could yout explain me what your post has to do with my one concerning Looschburg man traits?
    maybe my word "not evolved" catched your attention? it is a descriptive shape stating, not an opinion about real intellectual capacity or something close...I 'll read the Idun posts (I have no remembrance for now)- in what thread were they?
    (I regreat my word "archaic" which has not big precision: at the same time we see populatiosn showing more or less or no "brutal" so called "archaic" traits... true 'cromagnon' had not, spite seeming "older" in place)-


    &: I believe (without to much proofs and without paying too much attention) that the more "brutal" looks are often linked to a sort of practical intelligence, less interested by verbal theories - and since a long time yet I think I see in societies the alliance of these two kinds of complementary intelligences - but this last problem of intelligence linked to genetics is to unsteady and controversal and I have no right to pretend having some knowledge so I leave it to other forumers or posters -
    have a good Sunday
    My comment was directed at the site moderators and I was using your quote only to highlight a point. Sorry for the confusion. Regarding your second paragraph, I think we are very much on the same page.

    I don't want to explore this banning matter further (not tonight anyway).

    I'll leave it at this... we all need to hard work so that we avoid the dark clouds of a coming stormfront. Especially when these blowing winds are powered by last century's projected ideals... ideals that may not be grounded in scientific fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    To begin with, there is no historically attested ruling elite in Finland until around 1100-1300 AD, when Finland was incorporated into what would become Sweden. The three Finnish tribes (Finns, Tavastians and Karelians) lived partly as farmers and partly as hunters/fishers. Finland was so sparsely populated, due to the cold climate, that there simply was not much to rule over. Any elite ruler theory fails, IMO.

    The Siberian component in Northeastern Europe peaks in the Arctic region. It is highest in Norweigan Saami, and it is also high along the whole Arctic coast, whether Slavic- or Uralic speaking. Siberian-ness is simply something which has been native to the region for a long time. Eastern Finland has a historically attested Saami population, which is the most likely explanation for the higher Siberian admixture there.
    what about the West-finnish tribe the KVENS.....they where is great abundance........even setting outpost in the south baltic areas

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    Do we have information on eye color and lactase persistence for the motala samples ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I am not surprised by that. As far as R1b is concerned, I have explained many times before (eg here) that the autosomal genes of R1b men was continuously diluted on their way from the Middle East to West Europe via the Pontic Steppe, the Balkans, Central Europe, and eventually Western & Northern Europe. The longer R1b men stayed in a region, the more they would have had opportunities to intermarry with indigenous women of that region. Here are the three great zones where R1b intermingled with local populations:

    1) Pontic Steppe (arriving sometime between 6000 and 3700 BCE and staying until at least 2500 BCE) : the original R1b-M269 from eastern Anatolia or Mesopotamia (probably carrying mtDNA J, K, T1, T2, U4, and X2) blended extensively with steppe women (daughters of R1a men, mostly represented by mtDNA I, U2, U4, U5, V, W and X2). Roughly 1500 to 3000 years of intermingling, bring Northeast European genes into the R1b autosomal gene pool.

    2) Balkans, Danube basin & Central Europe (from c. 4000 to 2000 BCE) : 2000 years of mixing with the population of 'Old Europe', themselves a blend of Neolithic farmers (75%) and Mesolithic hunter-gatherers (25%). They would have acquired many of the most common maternal lineages in Europe today, including a wide range of H subclades, but also new subclades of J, K, T and U5.

    3) Western Europe & Scandinavia (from 2300 BCE) : a relatively fast invasion by R1b, especially in the Benelux, France and the British Isles, where R1b spread within only two or three centuries from the Unetice culture in Germany. The penetration was much slower in Scandinavia (starting from 1800 BCE, but slow assimilation of indigenous population throughout the Bronze Age until 500 BCE), Iberia (possibly from 1800 BCE, but whole peninsula not covered until 1200 BCE), and especially Italy (starting from 1300 BCE, but Sardinia not really settled by R1b until the Roman Republic). Such discrepancies in the diffusion pace may explain why R1b is so much higher in Northwest Europe then in places like southern Italy, and why the Gedrosian admixture is equally higher in Northwest Europe. An earlier and faster conquest of R1b, with a more thorough population replacement, explains why more original R1b autosomal DNA survive (less dilution).

    Is there a way to genetically test our personal Native European Genes/Farmer/Indo-European genes for ourselves. With all this Lactose intolerance issue and the farmer &/or Farmer link to lactose-Intolerances and having that issue in the past, it would be quite interesting how us guys with the same issues' fair in ancient ancestry. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vratyas View Post
    Do we have information on eye color and lactase persistence for the motala samples ?
    I don't remember anything from published paper indicating eye colour or lactose of Motola guys. I remember that Stuttgart and Loschborur samples were not lactose persistent though. Interestingly they have many more duplicates than today's people (the most advanced farmers) of scratches digesting genes, even the Loschbour hunter gatherer had more. Well, perhaps we have more efficient new mutations. ;)

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    Motala

    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Thanks, very interesting! So there is truly a chance of paleolithic Q in europe as I expected some time ago. According to the eupedia map, Scandinavia is the european hotspot of Q1a2b1, and there is also some Q1a2a1a2 and some also in Britain. So it would match the hypothesis for Motala, if true.
    Yes, there are Q1a2a1a2 in Norway, Sweden and England (via Normandy with Rollo).
    We have reconnected thanks to DNA and are planning more invasions - not sure where yet.

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    Y-Q is cousin to Y-R so maybe an old Siberian-East Eurasian citizen;
    the question of the age is over my today knowledge, but relying also upon the Maciamo's map, we see some Y-Q too in Central-Southeastern France, in regions previously occupied by Burgundians, what could confirm a Scandinavian link for Burgundians. I know someones link the scandinavian Y-Q to some steppes or Steppes influenced people , Scythians or Slavs, without more basis; a peer analysis of phylogenic tree could discard too much fancy here; Y-Q is far to be my speciality, it's true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Q1a2a1a2
    We have reconnected thanks to DNA and are planning more invasions - not sure where yet.
    My suggestion:

    Invade the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, destroy it, and restore the Principality of Antioch + the County of Edessa.

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