Thracians spoke Balto Slavic language

[Garrick]

Berga(s) (Thracian), breg (Serbian), hill (English)
Beras (Thracian), ridj (Serbian), beris (Lithuanian), brown, sorrel (English)
Briza (Thracian), riža, pirinač (Serbian), ryžis (Lithuanian), rice (English)
Dumas (Thracian), taman (Serbian), tumšs (Latvian), dark (English)
Gaidrus (Thracian), izražen (Serbian), giedras (Lithuanian), clear (English)
Ketri (Thracian), četiri (Serbian, pron. similar as kyetiri), četri (Latvian), four (English)
Lingas (Thracian), livada (Serbian), lanka (Lithuanian), meadow (English)
Pras (Thracian), prati (Serbian), praustas (Lithuanian), wash (English)
Ramus (Thracian), miran (Serbian), ramus (Lithuanian), calm (English)
Trausoi (Thracian), trošan (Serbian), trausls (Latvian), friable, friagle (English)
Tarpo (Thracian), trap (Serbian), tarpos (Lithuanian), gap, interspace (English)

[Baltic tribes]

I’m really surprised how some of the words share so much similarity between Lithuanian and Thracian languages.
Having said that, we cannot rule out a possibility that languages in time import and export some of the words.
The idea of common roots between Balto-Slavic languages is being contested.
For example, Latvian linguist Jānis Endzelīns thought, that any similarities among Baltic and Slavic languages were a result of an intensive language contact, i.e., that they were not genetically related and that there was no common Proto-Balto-Slavic language.
It’s like French and English languages. They’ve got different roots, but today both languages share so many words.
Antoine Meillet , the distinguished French Indo-Europeanist, in reaction to a second simplified theory of Schleicher's, propounded a view according to which all similarities of Baltic and Slavic occurred accidentally, by independent parallel development, and that there was no Proto-Balto-Slavic language.
Although other theories support idea of proto Balto-Slavic language development.

[mihaitzateo]

I’m really surprised how some of the words share so much similarity between Lithuanian and Thracian languages.
Having said that, we cannot rule out a possibility that languages in time import and export some of the words.
The idea of common roots between Balto-Slavic languages is being contested.
For example, Latvian linguist Jānis Endzelīns thought, that any similarities among Baltic and Slavic languages were a result of an intensive language contact, i.e., that they were not genetically related and that there was no common Proto-Balto-Slavic language.
It’s like French and English languages. They’ve got different roots, but today both languages share so many words.
Antoine Meillet , the distinguished French Indo-Europeanist, in reaction to a second simplified theory of Schleicher's, propounded a view according to which all similarities of Baltic and Slavic occurred accidentally, by independent parallel development, and that there was no Proto-Balto-Slavic language.
Although other theories support idea of proto Balto-Slavic language development.

Well since both are Satem language and the paternal lines and autosomal genetics are so closed,between North Eastern Slavs and Lavtians and Lithuanians (I mean people from Belarus,North Russia) ,I doubt that these languages are not coming from a common root.

[MOESAN]

It is mistake. Tracian is Satem as Balto Slavic. Illyrian is Centum.

it is no more the scholars dominant opinion - Illyrian could very well be a satem language - it is true the remnants of it are very scarce - but long enough, Illyrian was mistaken with venetic dialects of the roman north "Illyricum" and its territory too much magnified

[MOESAN]

I’m really surprised how some of the words share so much similarity between Lithuanian and Thracian languages.
Having said that, we cannot rule out a possibility that languages in time import and export some of the words.
The idea of common roots between Balto-Slavic languages is being contested.
For example, Latvian linguist Jānis Endzelīns thought, that any similarities among Baltic and Slavic languages were a result of an intensive language contact, i.e., that they were not genetically related and that there was no common Proto-Balto-Slavic language.
It’s like French and English languages. They’ve got different roots, but today both languages share so many words.
Antoine Meillet , the distinguished French Indo-Europeanist, in reaction to a second simplified theory of Schleicher's, propounded a view according to which all similarities of Baltic and Slavic occurred accidentally, by independent parallel development, and that there was no Proto-Balto-Slavic language.
Although other theories support idea of proto Balto-Slavic language development.

I find the observations of Mihaitzateo full of good sense, concerning genetic - if I think the satem links with Thracians could be old enough, I think nevertheless Baltic and Slavic surely shared some common ancestry at some stage of History - baltic seems just more conservative than slavic and it could explain the proximity with thracian? maybe the good answer is that Slavic and Baltic are the heritage of a same satme old language learned by close but already separated populations? hard to be sure - a substrate slightly different: more finno-ugric among Balts, more carpathian among Slavs?

[Garrick]

it is no more the scholars dominant opinion - Illyrian could very well be a satem language - it is true the remnants of it are very scarce - but long enough, Illyrian was mistaken with venetic dialects of the roman north "Illyricum" and its territory too much magnified

I thought Illyrian should be Satem because I2a/R1a carriers were Illyrians and they surely spoke Satem language (a variant of Balto Slavic).

However science says that Illyrian is Centum. It can be only due to influence R1b from North, or maybe R1b carriers had much higher number/impact in Illyrian population.

[Nobody1]

The only people that have been identified as Illyrians (Herodotus/Strabo) and whose ancient language has survived is Venetic and its a centum Indo-European language close to Keltic and Italic; No other ancient Illyrian language has survived to be classified or compared; 3 tribes are classified and are centum so why should the rest be diff. - not really possible;

[Garrick]

The only people that have been identified as Illyrians (Herodotus/Strabo) and whose ancient language has survived is Venetic and its a centum Indo-European language close to Keltic and Italic; No other ancient Illyrian language has survived to be classified or compared; 3 tribes are classified and are centum so why should the rest be diff. - not really possible;

Yes, Illyrian ic Centum.

Centum and Satem are mutually exclusive, therefore for example Illyrian and Albanian have no connection.

And respectable Albanian linguist Henrik Bariqi says that Albanian as Satem language cannot have link with Illyrian.

Since the Illyrian is undoubtedly Centum R1b carriers from North had big impact among Illyrians, while R1b carriers didn't have impact at Thracians (language of Thracians is Satem as Balto Slavic).

Illyrians probably were mix R1b/R1a/I2a carriers.

[albanopolis]

Yes, Illyrian ic Centum.

Centum and Satem are mutually exclusive, therefore for example Illyrian and Albanian have no connection.

And respectable Albanian linguist Henrik Bariqi says that Albanian as Satem language cannot have link with Illyrian.

Since the Illyrian is undoubtedly Centum R1b carriers from North had big impact among Illyrians, while R1b carriers didn't have impact at Thracians (language of Thracians is Satem as Balto Slavic).

Illyrians probably were mix R1b/R1a/I2a carriers.

You should do something else in life instead of discussing things you appear to have e no knowledge.It's idiotic to claim Illyrian and albanian belong to different families. The linguists have stated that Albanian language its not a clear case centum or satem. They are divided half and half. It appears you read a lot of Serbian propoganda and try to create smoke to readers of this forum. You are not going to get anywhere. We not going to let you talking trash!

[Garrick]

You should do something else in life instead of discussing things you appear to have e no knowledge.It's idiotic to claim Illyrian and albanian belong to different families. The linguists have stated that Albanian language its not a clear case centum or satem. They are divided half and half. It appears you read a lot of Serbian propoganda and try to create smoke to readers of this forum. You are not going to get anywhere. We not going to let you talking trash!

The easiest way to discredit someone with sharp words. But open forum requires dialogue. Everyone is free to present arguments. Linguistic science says that Satem and Centum are mutually exclusive. Who thinks differently to some arguments based on solid foundations, not ideology. Science and research are based on facts, without facts is futile belief.

[gyms]

Ancient Thracian mtDNA

The presentation of the results isn't very clear. From a cursory comparison of the results listed in the text with the Genographic project list of motifs, at least the following seem represented in the ancient Thracian individuals:

• 1 individual seems to be 16129A 16223T
• 1 individual seems to be 16145A
• 1 individual seems to be 16186T 16190C (however, this looks like 16189C in Fig. 4, 186T and 189C are found in haplogroup T1)
• 1 individual seems to be 16193T 16283C (16193T is found in J2, which also carries 16069T (beyond the region sequenced) 16126C (in the region sequenced but not found).
• 1 individual seems to be 16311C
• 2 individuals seems to be 16362C which in West Eurasia seems to be found in R0a and R6

http://dienekes.blogspot.se/2008/07/...ian-mtdna.html

[Garrick]

I’m really surprised how some of the words share so much similarity between Lithuanian and Thracian languages.
Having said that, we cannot rule out a possibility that languages in time import and export some of the words.
The idea of common roots between Balto-Slavic languages is being contested.
For example, Latvian linguist Jānis Endzelīns thought, that any similarities among Baltic and Slavic languages were a result of an intensive language contact, i.e., that they were not genetically related and that there was no common Proto-Balto-Slavic language.
It’s like French and English languages. They’ve got different roots, but today both languages share so many words.
Antoine Meillet , the distinguished French Indo-Europeanist, in reaction to a second simplified theory of Schleicher's, propounded a view according to which all similarities of Baltic and Slavic occurred accidentally, by independent parallel development, and that there was no Proto-Balto-Slavic language.
Although other theories support idea of proto Balto-Slavic language development.

Old Church Slavonic or Old Church Slavic was first Slavic literary language, standardized in 9th century from Byzantine Greek missionaries Saints Cyril and Methodius. They took the language of Slavic people in Thessalonica (in Greece), the closest this language are Old Serbian and Old Bulgarian.

Serbs can understand a lot of words of this language but it is interesting, some words of Old Church Slavonic are more like Lithuanian than Serbian (I would like Bulgarians to take participation).

For example:

Alkati (Old Church Slavonic), alkti (Lithuanian), hunger (English)
Azŭ, aš, I
Varda, vardas, name
Visi, visi, all
Nyn’ja, nunai, now
Prežde, prieš, before
Ic, iš, out of
Uzĭrěti, žiūrėti, see
Imŭ, imti, take
Sĭ, šis, this
Mĭněti, manyti, think.

[mihaitzateo]

^
That is an awsome finding.

[kokki]

What Is Strange to me,is the rapid imposition of a Slavic language in the first Bulgarian state. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_I_of_Bulgaria. Good explanation is near Thracian language. I do not believe that the Thracians vaporized.

[gyms]

What Is Strange to me,is the rapid imposition of a Slavic language in the first Bulgarian state. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_I_of_Bulgaria. Good explanation is near Thracian language. I do not believe that the Thracians vaporized.

There is lots of vaporized peoples,kokki!

[matbir]

Well since both are Satem language and the paternal lines and autosomal genetics are so closed,between North Eastern Slavs and Lavtians and Lithuanians (I mean people from Belarus,North Russia) ,I doubt that these languages are not coming from a common root.

They are not equally satemized. Some centum words in Slavic languages have very similar satemized cognates in Baltic languages example: Pol. gwiazda; Lit. žvaigždė; Eng. star. Baltic and Slavic seem to be very similar but they have some old independent changes, which contradict theory of proto-Balto-Slavic. The other way to explain similarities between Baltic and Slavic is that they were close neighbors for long time. Genetic similarity is because, before Slavic expansion area of Belarus and central Russia was settled by Baltic tribes.

[kokki]

There is lots of vaporized peoples,kokki!

"People do not go away"-a quote from the movie "CSI." Tribes, yes, melted into new alliances. The Thracians lived in small communities / mountainous and hilly / and "do not recognize the authority of their own leaders' / Herodotus / See how many tribes are mentioned by ancient authors.
Abreteni
Agri
Aedi
Almopi
Aodi
Apsinti
Argeadi
Aretuzi
Artak
Asti
Bant
Benny
Bebriki
Bessie
Bisaltae
Bistoni
being
Bleguri , Balagrii
Botiei
Brent
Brigitte
Brink
Brisei
silkworm
Byusnei
Vasanisi
Gareski
gaiters
Gondry
Dacians
Datulepti
Dardanians
SIPA , good cheer, gullies
Datulepti
Denteleti
Deroni
Desi
Digeri
Dizori
Dee
Diobesi
Dionisiuses
Doberan
Dolonki
Dolioni
Droi
Edonoi
d ual
Entribi
Eordensii
blackened
Zera
Idomenensi
Ihnei
Kabileti
Kavkonensi
Karbilesi
Carpi
Kebra
Kenny
giggle
Clary
Koylaleti (large )
Koylaleti (small )
Corals , Korea
Corp.
Kostoboki
Krestoni
Crobyzi
Cruz
Xanthi
Laei , Leei
Linkesti
Maduateni
Mariandini
Medi
Medovitini
Melanditi
Melinofagi
MeOH
Mayo
Migdol
pot
dear
Mori
Morris
Nipsei
Odomanti
Odon
Odrysaeans
Olympus
Oreski
Otrionei
Paiti
Panay
Parorei
Peony
Peopli
Pierrot
Pirogeri
Priyanti
Rondei
swords
Saboki
Sapelli ( Sai )
Sarapari
satri
selenium
Serdi
Sikaboi
Sinti
Sindonei
Siri
Siropeoni
sieve
SKY
Scythian
Skaugdi
Skirmiadi
Staleti
Tevkri
Tilatei
Timak
Tirageti
Tisageti
Tralee
Travsi
Tranipsi
tribals
Trispli
troglodyte
Tyuni
Frigo
Halibi
Even Odrysian kingdom is loose confederation. They have no cities ,are not affected by the plague and other disasters. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_of_Justinian. It is logical to assume that at some point, interact with the Slavs / almost 100% farmers / who settled in plains. Particularly in strengthening the power and trade in the new Slavic-Bulgarian state. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cu...ian_Empire.png

[Sile]

books say difference about thracian language

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...guages&f=false

Thracian and greek where similar but had difference
Macedonian was completely different from greek and Thracian

[mihaitzateo]

books say difference about thracian language

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...guages&f=false

Thracian and greek where similar but had difference
Macedonian was completely different from greek and Thracian

Anyway Greek is Centum while Thracian is said to have been Satem.
Besides,there were 3 waves of different Greeks that have came in Greece,no one knows if they were speaking exactly same language,closed languages or different languages,no one knows what kind of genetics these waves of Greeks had and so on.

EDIT:
Now I could read and I do not see where is told at that link that Thracian was closed to Greek language,since is not said such a thing there.

[albanopolis]

The easiest way to discredit someone with sharp words. But open forum requires dialogue. Everyone is free to present arguments. Linguistic science says that Satem and Centum are mutually exclusive. Who thinks differently to some arguments based on solid foundations, not ideology. Science and research are based on facts, without facts is futile belief.

That's why I sugest you read more. There are languages that are not clear case. Albanian can be clasified as both centum and and satem. There is not written or spoken Illyrian language to compare to. There are few toponims in latin scripts refering to Illyria. Stop propoganda camuflaged as science. If you want to know: The strongest argument of Illyrian connection of albanian language is present day albanian language. 50% of our vocabulary comes from prechristian latin. The only territor conquered at that time by Romans was Illyria. No matter how much smoke serbian propoganda trys to create that fact is a mountain.

[Garrick]

That's why I sugest you read more. There are languages that are not clear case. Albanian can be clasified as both centum and and satem. There is not written or spoken Illyrian language to compare to. There are few toponims in latin scripts refering to Illyria. Stop propoganda camuflaged as science. If you want to know: The strongest argument of Illyrian connection of albanian language is present day albanian language. 50% of our vocabulary comes from prechristian latin. The only territor conquered at that time by Romans was Illyria. No matter how much smoke serbian propoganda trys to create that fact is a mountain.

Science is not propaganda.

Do you really think that respectable world scientists are Serbian propagandists?

Colin Renfrew, Archaeology and Language, Cambridge University Press, 1987, pp. 107

http://books.google.rs/books?id=R645...Centum&f=false

Western group (centum)

Germanic
Venetic
Illyrian
Celtic
Italic
Greek

Eastern group (satem)
Baltic
Slavic
Albanian
Thracian...

*
If you like theme about propaganda, Albanian communist leader Enver Hoxha and his party insisted on connection/continuity between Albanians and Illyrians:


Parts of these ideologies were adopted during the Socialist People's Republic of Albania (1945–1991), which was more focused on the Illyrian-Albanian continuity issue^[8] and appropriating Ancient Greek history as Albanian.^[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_nationalism

*
Past in many aspects is not known and we here trying to take reasoned debate, whereby scientific papers and books are guiding.

[mihaitzateo]

Science is not propaganda.

Do you really think that respectable world scientists are Serbian propagandists?

Colin Renfrew, Archaeology and Language, Cambridge University Press, 1987, pp. 107

http://books.google.rs/books?id=R645...Centum&f=false

Western group (centum)

Germanic
Venetic
Illyrian
Celtic
Italic
Greek

Eastern group (satem)
Baltic
Slavic
Albanian
Thracian...

*
If you like theme about propaganda, Albanian communist leader Enver Hoxha and his party insisted on connection/continuity between Albanians and Illyrians:


Parts of these ideologies were adopted during the Socialist People's Republic of Albania (1945–1991), which was more focused on the Illyrian-Albanian continuity issue^[8] and appropriating Ancient Greek history as Albanian.^[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_nationalism

*
Past in many aspects is not known and we here trying to take reasoned debate, whereby scientific papers and books are guiding.

Well maybe most of Romanian language is than inherited from Illyrians,who were conquered by Dacians (Balto-Slavic speaking people).
According to some well known Romanian linguist,Albanian is not very far from Slavic and he was not biased in neither direction.
I am still wondering from where is most genetics of Romanians from South Romania plains.
They are very short people but they are not Turkic people,not even 1 in 100 got epicantic fold,which is a sign of having East,Central or North Asian admixture.
Moldovans are ,I think,most closed to Eastern Slavs .
As for people from Transylvania,same weird thing again,very short people,lots of them.
Think they also have some Celtic heritage,but is not possible that Celts/Gauls were so short people.
Now,is pretty clear that Moldavia have mostly Eastern and South Slavic paternal lines,as for South Romania,Balkanics and South Slavic paternal lines are making most of the ancestry.

[albanopolis]

Well maybe most of Romanian language is than inherited from Illyrians,who were conquered by Dacians (Balto-Slavic speaking people).
According to some well known Romanian linguist,Albanian is not very far from Slavic and he was not biased in neither direction.
I am still wondering from where is most genetics of Romanians from South Romania plains.
They are very short people but they are not Turkic people,not even 1 in 100 got epicantic fold,which is a sign of having East,Central or North Asian admixture.
Moldovans are ,I think,most closed to Eastern Slavs .
As for people from Transylvania,same weird thing again,very short people,lots of them.
Think they also have some Celtic heritage,but is not possible that Celts/Gauls were so short people.
Now,is pretty clear that Moldavia have mostly Eastern and South Slavic paternal lines,as for South Romania,Balkanics and South Slavic paternal lines are making most of the ancestry.

Romanian language is a creole of latin+dacian. Today's Romanian vocabulary is consistent with after Christ Latin vocabulary. In other words, latin in Romania was borrowed after christ, which is consistent with the time Romans invaded Dacia. So see the difference: Albanian latin borrowings are consistent with prechrist latin (Time when Illyria was invaded), Romanian latin borrowings with afterchrist latin( time when Dacia was invaded). I don't know much about Romania. One thing is clear that today's Romania has absorbed a lot of slavic genes and language.

[albanopolis]

Science is not propaganda.

Do you really think that respectable world scientists are Serbian propagandists?

Colin Renfrew, Archaeology and Language, Cambridge University Press, 1987, pp. 107

http://books.google.rs/books?id=R645...Centum&f=false

Western group (centum)

Germanic
Venetic
Illyrian
Celtic
Italic
Greek

Eastern group (satem)
Baltic
Slavic
Albanian
Thracian...

*
If you like theme about propaganda, Albanian communist leader Enver Hoxha and his party insisted on connection/continuity between Albanians and Illyrians:


Parts of these ideologies were adopted during the Socialist People's Republic of Albania (1945–1991), which was more focused on the Illyrian-Albanian continuity issue^[8] and appropriating Ancient Greek history as Albanian.^[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_nationalism

*
Past in many aspects is not known and we here trying to take reasoned debate, whereby scientific papers and books are guiding.

No surprise here. The person you are quoting could be a psudo scientist, or he might have a valid point. But for historical facts, linguistic or other' a wide consensus among scientists of the field is needed. That consensus regarding Albanian language being satem or centum does not exist. They are split right in the middle. When the hard facts( written evidence) about Illyrian language do not exist then speculators take over. You belong in that group of speculators. It's not that speculators triumph but they can temporarily confuse readers. Close this topic please, again you appear deeply uninformed about the topic you are disscussing. You could be a lot more helpful to disscus Serbian language for instance. Or discuss topics like onother Serbian of this forum was disscussing that Serbs tribes are Germanic extract. It could be a lot more entertaining.

[Ike]

There is not written or spoken Illyrian language to compare to.

When the hard facts( written evidence) about Illyrian language do not exist then speculators take over.

It's idiotic to claim Illyrian and albanian belong to different families.

The strongest argument of Illyrian connection of albanian language is present day albanian language.

It's kinda like jumping into your own mouth. Chill out dude.