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Thread: Thracians spoke Balto Slavic language

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    Berga(s) (Thracian), breg (Serbian), hill (English)
    Beras (Thracian), ridj (Serbian), beris (Lithuanian), brown, sorrel (English)
    Briza (Thracian), riža, pirinač (Serbian), ryžis (Lithuanian), rice (English)
    Dumas (Thracian), taman (Serbian), tumšs (Latvian), dark (English)
    Gaidrus (Thracian), izražen (Serbian), giedras (Lithuanian), clear (English)
    Ketri (Thracian), četiri (Serbian, pron. similar as kyetiri), četri (Latvian), four (English)
    Lingas (Thracian), livada (Serbian), lanka (Lithuanian), meadow (English)
    Pras (Thracian), prati (Serbian), praustas (Lithuanian), wash (English)
    Ramus (Thracian), miran (Serbian), ramus (Lithuanian), calm (English)
    Trausoi (Thracian), trošan (Serbian), trausls (Latvian), friable, friagle (English)
    Tarpo (Thracian), trap (Serbian), tarpos (Lithuanian), gap, interspace (English)

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    I’m really surprised how some of the words share so much similarity between Lithuanian and Thracian languages.
    Having said that, we cannot rule out a possibility that languages in time import and export some of the words.
    The idea of common roots between Balto-Slavic languages is being contested.
    For example, Latvian linguist Jānis Endzelīns thought, that any similarities among Baltic and Slavic languages were a result of an intensive language contact, i.e., that they were not genetically related and that there was no common Proto-Balto-Slavic language.
    It’s like French and English languages. They’ve got different roots, but today both languages share so many words.
    Antoine Meillet , the distinguished French Indo-Europeanist, in reaction to a second simplified theory of Schleicher's, propounded a view according to which all similarities of Baltic and Slavic occurred accidentally, by independent parallel development, and that there was no Proto-Balto-Slavic language.
    Although other theories support idea of proto Balto-Slavic language development.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baltic tribes View Post
    I’m really surprised how some of the words share so much similarity between Lithuanian and Thracian languages.
    Having said that, we cannot rule out a possibility that languages in time import and export some of the words.
    The idea of common roots between Balto-Slavic languages is being contested.
    For example, Latvian linguist Jānis Endzelīns thought, that any similarities among Baltic and Slavic languages were a result of an intensive language contact, i.e., that they were not genetically related and that there was no common Proto-Balto-Slavic language.
    It’s like French and English languages. They’ve got different roots, but today both languages share so many words.
    Antoine Meillet , the distinguished French Indo-Europeanist, in reaction to a second simplified theory of Schleicher's, propounded a view according to which all similarities of Baltic and Slavic occurred accidentally, by independent parallel development, and that there was no Proto-Balto-Slavic language.
    Although other theories support idea of proto Balto-Slavic language development.
    Well since both are Satem language and the paternal lines and autosomal genetics are so closed,between North Eastern Slavs and Lavtians and Lithuanians (I mean people from Belarus,North Russia) ,I doubt that these languages are not coming from a common root.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    It is mistake. Tracian is Satem as Balto Slavic. Illyrian is Centum.

    it is no more the scholars dominant opinion - Illyrian could very well be a satem language - it is true the remnants of it are very scarce - but long enough, Illyrian was mistaken with venetic dialects of the roman north "Illyricum" and its territory too much magnified

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baltic tribes View Post
    I’m really surprised how some of the words share so much similarity between Lithuanian and Thracian languages.
    Having said that, we cannot rule out a possibility that languages in time import and export some of the words.
    The idea of common roots between Balto-Slavic languages is being contested.
    For example, Latvian linguist Jānis Endzelīns thought, that any similarities among Baltic and Slavic languages were a result of an intensive language contact, i.e., that they were not genetically related and that there was no common Proto-Balto-Slavic language.
    It’s like French and English languages. They’ve got different roots, but today both languages share so many words.
    Antoine Meillet , the distinguished French Indo-Europeanist, in reaction to a second simplified theory of Schleicher's, propounded a view according to which all similarities of Baltic and Slavic occurred accidentally, by independent parallel development, and that there was no Proto-Balto-Slavic language.
    Although other theories support idea of proto Balto-Slavic language development.
    I find the observations of Mihaitzateo full of good sense, concerning genetic - if I think the satem links with Thracians could be old enough, I think nevertheless Baltic and Slavic surely shared some common ancestry at some stage of History - baltic seems just more conservative than slavic and it could explain the proximity with thracian? maybe the good answer is that Slavic and Baltic are the heritage of a same satme old language learned by close but already separated populations? hard to be sure - a substrate slightly different: more finno-ugric among Balts, more carpathian among Slavs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    it is no more the scholars dominant opinion - Illyrian could very well be a satem language - it is true the remnants of it are very scarce - but long enough, Illyrian was mistaken with venetic dialects of the roman north "Illyricum" and its territory too much magnified
    I thought Illyrian should be Satem because I2a/R1a carriers were Illyrians and they surely spoke Satem language (a variant of Balto Slavic).

    However science says that Illyrian is Centum. It can be only due to influence R1b from North, or maybe R1b carriers had much higher number/impact in Illyrian population.

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    The only people that have been identified as Illyrians (Herodotus/Strabo) and whose ancient language has survived is Venetic and its a centum Indo-European language close to Keltic and Italic; No other ancient Illyrian language has survived to be classified or compared; 3 tribes are classified and are centum so why should the rest be diff. - not really possible;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    The only people that have been identified as Illyrians (Herodotus/Strabo) and whose ancient language has survived is Venetic and its a centum Indo-European language close to Keltic and Italic; No other ancient Illyrian language has survived to be classified or compared; 3 tribes are classified and are centum so why should the rest be diff. - not really possible;
    Yes, Illyrian ic Centum.

    Centum and Satem are mutually exclusive, therefore for example Illyrian and Albanian have no connection.

    And respectable Albanian linguist Henrik Bariqi says that Albanian as Satem language cannot have link with Illyrian.

    Since the Illyrian is undoubtedly Centum R1b carriers from North had big impact among Illyrians, while R1b carriers didn't have impact at Thracians (language of Thracians is Satem as Balto Slavic).

    Illyrians probably were mix R1b/R1a/I2a carriers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Yes, Illyrian ic Centum.

    Centum and Satem are mutually exclusive, therefore for example Illyrian and Albanian have no connection.

    And respectable Albanian linguist Henrik Bariqi says that Albanian as Satem language cannot have link with Illyrian.

    Since the Illyrian is undoubtedly Centum R1b carriers from North had big impact among Illyrians, while R1b carriers didn't have impact at Thracians (language of Thracians is Satem as Balto Slavic).

    Illyrians probably were mix R1b/R1a/I2a carriers.
    You should do something else in life instead of discussing things you appear to have e no knowledge.It's idiotic to claim Illyrian and albanian belong to different families. The linguists have stated that Albanian language its not a clear case centum or satem. They are divided half and half. It appears you read a lot of Serbian propoganda and try to create smoke to readers of this forum. You are not going to get anywhere. We not going to let you talking trash!

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    Quote Originally Posted by albanopolis View Post
    You should do something else in life instead of discussing things you appear to have e no knowledge.It's idiotic to claim Illyrian and albanian belong to different families. The linguists have stated that Albanian language its not a clear case centum or satem. They are divided half and half. It appears you read a lot of Serbian propoganda and try to create smoke to readers of this forum. You are not going to get anywhere. We not going to let you talking trash!
    The easiest way to discredit someone with sharp words. But open forum requires dialogue. Everyone is free to present arguments. Linguistic science says that Satem and Centum are mutually exclusive. Who thinks differently to some arguments based on solid foundations, not ideology. Science and research are based on facts, without facts is futile belief.

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    Ancient Thracian mtDNA

    The presentation of the results isn't very clear. From a cursory comparison of the results listed in the text with the Genographic project list of motifs, at least the following seem represented in the ancient Thracian individuals:

    • 1 individual seems to be 16129A 16223T
    • 1 individual seems to be 16145A
    • 1 individual seems to be 16186T 16190C (however, this looks like 16189C in Fig. 4, 186T and 189C are found in haplogroup T1)
    • 1 individual seems to be 16193T 16283C (16193T is found in J2, which also carries 16069T (beyond the region sequenced) 16126C (in the region sequenced but not found).
    • 1 individual seems to be 16311C
    • 2 individuals seems to be 16362C which in West Eurasia seems to be found in R0a and R6


    http://dienekes.blogspot.se/2008/07/...ian-mtdna.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baltic tribes View Post
    I’m really surprised how some of the words share so much similarity between Lithuanian and Thracian languages.
    Having said that, we cannot rule out a possibility that languages in time import and export some of the words.
    The idea of common roots between Balto-Slavic languages is being contested.
    For example, Latvian linguist Jānis Endzelīns thought, that any similarities among Baltic and Slavic languages were a result of an intensive language contact, i.e., that they were not genetically related and that there was no common Proto-Balto-Slavic language.
    It’s like French and English languages. They’ve got different roots, but today both languages share so many words.
    Antoine Meillet , the distinguished French Indo-Europeanist, in reaction to a second simplified theory of Schleicher's, propounded a view according to which all similarities of Baltic and Slavic occurred accidentally, by independent parallel development, and that there was no Proto-Balto-Slavic language.
    Although other theories support idea of proto Balto-Slavic language development.
    Old Church Slavonic or Old Church Slavic was first Slavic literary language, standardized in 9th century from Byzantine Greek missionaries Saints Cyril and Methodius. They took the language of Slavic people in Thessalonica (in Greece), the closest this language are Old Serbian and Old Bulgarian.

    Serbs can understand a lot of words of this language but it is interesting, some words of Old Church Slavonic are more like Lithuanian than Serbian (I would like Bulgarians to take participation).

    For example:

    Alkati (Old Church Slavonic), alkti (Lithuanian), hunger (English)
    Azŭ, aš, I
    Varda, vardas, name
    Visi, visi, all
    Nyn’ja, nunai, now
    Prežde, prieš, before
    Ic, iš, out of
    Uzĭrěti, žiūrėti, see
    Imŭ, imti, take
    Sĭ, šis, this
    Mĭněti, manyti, think.

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    ^
    That is an awsome finding.

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    What Is Strange to me,is the rapid imposition of a Slavic language in the first Bulgarian state. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_I_of_Bulgaria. Good explanation is near Thracian language. I do not believe that the Thracians vaporized.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kokki View Post
    What Is Strange to me,is the rapid imposition of a Slavic language in the first Bulgarian state. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_I_of_Bulgaria. Good explanation is near Thracian language. I do not believe that the Thracians vaporized.
    There is lots of vaporized peoples,kokki!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Well since both are Satem language and the paternal lines and autosomal genetics are so closed,between North Eastern Slavs and Lavtians and Lithuanians (I mean people from Belarus,North Russia) ,I doubt that these languages are not coming from a common root.
    They are not equally satemized. Some centum words in Slavic languages have very similar satemized cognates in Baltic languages example: Pol. gwiazda; Lit. žvaigždė; Eng. star. Baltic and Slavic seem to be very similar but they have some old independent changes, which contradict theory of proto-Balto-Slavic. The other way to explain similarities between Baltic and Slavic is that they were close neighbors for long time. Genetic similarity is because, before Slavic expansion area of Belarus and central Russia was settled by Baltic tribes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    There is lots of vaporized peoples,kokki!
    "People do not go away"-a quote from the movie "CSI." Tribes, yes, melted into new alliances. The Thracians lived in small communities / mountainous and hilly / and "do not recognize the authority of their own leaders' / Herodotus / See how many tribes are mentioned by ancient authors.
    Abreteni
    Agri
    Aedi
    Almopi
    Aodi
    Apsinti
    Argeadi
    Aretuzi
    Artak
    Asti
    Bant
    Benny
    Bebriki
    Bessie
    Bisaltae
    Bistoni
    being
    Bleguri , Balagrii
    Botiei
    Brent
    Brigitte
    Brink
    Brisei
    silkworm
    Byusnei
    Vasanisi
    Gareski
    gaiters
    Gondry
    Dacians
    Datulepti
    Dardanians
    SIPA , good cheer, gullies
    Datulepti
    Denteleti
    Deroni
    Desi
    Digeri
    Dizori
    Dee
    Diobesi
    Dionisiuses
    Doberan
    Dolonki
    Dolioni
    Droi
    Edonoi
    d ual
    Entribi
    Eordensii
    blackened
    Zera
    Idomenensi
    Ihnei
    Kabileti
    Kavkonensi
    Karbilesi
    Carpi
    Kebra
    Kenny
    giggle
    Clary
    Koylaleti (large )
    Koylaleti (small )
    Corals , Korea
    Corp.
    Kostoboki
    Krestoni
    Crobyzi
    Cruz
    Xanthi
    Laei , Leei
    Linkesti
    Maduateni
    Mariandini
    Medi
    Medovitini
    Melanditi
    Melinofagi
    MeOH
    Mayo
    Migdol
    pot
    dear
    Mori
    Morris
    Nipsei
    Odomanti
    Odon
    Odrysaeans
    Olympus
    Oreski
    Otrionei
    Paiti
    Panay
    Parorei
    Peony
    Peopli
    Pierrot
    Pirogeri
    Priyanti
    Rondei
    swords
    Saboki
    Sapelli ( Sai )
    Sarapari
    satri
    selenium
    Serdi
    Sikaboi
    Sinti
    Sindonei
    Siri
    Siropeoni
    sieve
    SKY
    Scythian
    Skaugdi
    Skirmiadi
    Staleti
    Tevkri
    Tilatei
    Timak
    Tirageti
    Tisageti
    Tralee
    Travsi
    Tranipsi
    tribals
    Trispli
    troglodyte
    Tyuni
    Frigo
    Halibi
    Even Odrysian kingdom is loose confederation. They have no cities ,are not affected by the plague and other disasters. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_of_Justinian. It is logical to assume that at some point, interact with the Slavs / almost 100% farmers / who settled in plains. Particularly in strengthening the power and trade in the new Slavic-Bulgarian state. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cu...ian_Empire.png

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    books say difference about thracian language

    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...guages&f=false

    Thracian and greek where similar but had difference
    Macedonian was completely different from greek and Thracian
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    books say difference about thracian language

    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...guages&f=false

    Thracian and greek where similar but had difference
    Macedonian was completely different from greek and Thracian
    Anyway Greek is Centum while Thracian is said to have been Satem.
    Besides,there were 3 waves of different Greeks that have came in Greece,no one knows if they were speaking exactly same language,closed languages or different languages,no one knows what kind of genetics these waves of Greeks had and so on.

    EDIT:
    Now I could read and I do not see where is told at that link that Thracian was closed to Greek language,since is not said such a thing there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    The easiest way to discredit someone with sharp words. But open forum requires dialogue. Everyone is free to present arguments. Linguistic science says that Satem and Centum are mutually exclusive. Who thinks differently to some arguments based on solid foundations, not ideology. Science and research are based on facts, without facts is futile belief.
    That's why I sugest you read more. There are languages that are not clear case. Albanian can be clasified as both centum and and satem. There is not written or spoken Illyrian language to compare to. There are few toponims in latin scripts refering to Illyria. Stop propoganda camuflaged as science. If you want to know: The strongest argument of Illyrian connection of albanian language is present day albanian language. 50% of our vocabulary comes from prechristian latin. The only territor conquered at that time by Romans was Illyria. No matter how much smoke serbian propoganda trys to create that fact is a mountain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by albanopolis View Post
    That's why I sugest you read more. There are languages that are not clear case. Albanian can be clasified as both centum and and satem. There is not written or spoken Illyrian language to compare to. There are few toponims in latin scripts refering to Illyria. Stop propoganda camuflaged as science. If you want to know: The strongest argument of Illyrian connection of albanian language is present day albanian language. 50% of our vocabulary comes from prechristian latin. The only territor conquered at that time by Romans was Illyria. No matter how much smoke serbian propoganda trys to create that fact is a mountain.
    Science is not propaganda.

    Do you really think that respectable world scientists are Serbian propagandists?

    Colin Renfrew, Archaeology and Language, Cambridge University Press, 1987, pp. 107

    http://books.google.rs/books?id=R645...Centum&f=false

    Western group (centum)

    Germanic
    Venetic
    Illyrian
    Celtic
    Italic
    Greek

    Eastern group (satem)
    Baltic
    Slavic
    Albanian
    Thracian...

    *
    If you like theme about propaganda, Albanian communist leader Enver Hoxha and his party insisted on connection/continuity between Albanians and Illyrians:


    Parts of these ideologies were adopted during the Socialist People's Republic of Albania (1945–1991), which was more focused on the Illyrian-Albanian continuity issue[8] and appropriating Ancient Greek history as Albanian.[8]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_nationalism

    *
    Past in many aspects is not known and we here trying to take reasoned debate, whereby scientific papers and books are guiding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Science is not propaganda.

    Do you really think that respectable world scientists are Serbian propagandists?

    Colin Renfrew, Archaeology and Language, Cambridge University Press, 1987, pp. 107

    http://books.google.rs/books?id=R645...Centum&f=false

    Western group (centum)

    Germanic
    Venetic
    Illyrian
    Celtic
    Italic
    Greek

    Eastern group (satem)
    Baltic
    Slavic
    Albanian
    Thracian...

    *
    If you like theme about propaganda, Albanian communist leader Enver Hoxha and his party insisted on connection/continuity between Albanians and Illyrians:


    Parts of these ideologies were adopted during the Socialist People's Republic of Albania (1945–1991), which was more focused on the Illyrian-Albanian continuity issue[8] and appropriating Ancient Greek history as Albanian.[8]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_nationalism

    *
    Past in many aspects is not known and we here trying to take reasoned debate, whereby scientific papers and books are guiding.
    Well maybe most of Romanian language is than inherited from Illyrians,who were conquered by Dacians (Balto-Slavic speaking people).
    According to some well known Romanian linguist,Albanian is not very far from Slavic and he was not biased in neither direction.
    I am still wondering from where is most genetics of Romanians from South Romania plains.
    They are very short people but they are not Turkic people,not even 1 in 100 got epicantic fold,which is a sign of having East,Central or North Asian admixture.
    Moldovans are ,I think,most closed to Eastern Slavs .
    As for people from Transylvania,same weird thing again,very short people,lots of them.
    Think they also have some Celtic heritage,but is not possible that Celts/Gauls were so short people.
    Now,is pretty clear that Moldavia have mostly Eastern and South Slavic paternal lines,as for South Romania,Balkanics and South Slavic paternal lines are making most of the ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Well maybe most of Romanian language is than inherited from Illyrians,who were conquered by Dacians (Balto-Slavic speaking people).
    According to some well known Romanian linguist,Albanian is not very far from Slavic and he was not biased in neither direction.
    I am still wondering from where is most genetics of Romanians from South Romania plains.
    They are very short people but they are not Turkic people,not even 1 in 100 got epicantic fold,which is a sign of having East,Central or North Asian admixture.
    Moldovans are ,I think,most closed to Eastern Slavs .
    As for people from Transylvania,same weird thing again,very short people,lots of them.
    Think they also have some Celtic heritage,but is not possible that Celts/Gauls were so short people.
    Now,is pretty clear that Moldavia have mostly Eastern and South Slavic paternal lines,as for South Romania,Balkanics and South Slavic paternal lines are making most of the ancestry.
    Romanian language is a creole of latin+dacian. Today's Romanian vocabulary is consistent with after Christ Latin vocabulary. In other words, latin in Romania was borrowed after christ, which is consistent with the time Romans invaded Dacia. So see the difference: Albanian latin borrowings are consistent with prechrist latin (Time when Illyria was invaded), Romanian latin borrowings with afterchrist latin( time when Dacia was invaded). I don't know much about Romania. One thing is clear that today's Romania has absorbed a lot of slavic genes and language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Science is not propaganda.

    Do you really think that respectable world scientists are Serbian propagandists?

    Colin Renfrew, Archaeology and Language, Cambridge University Press, 1987, pp. 107

    http://books.google.rs/books?id=R645...Centum&f=false

    Western group (centum)

    Germanic
    Venetic
    Illyrian
    Celtic
    Italic
    Greek

    Eastern group (satem)
    Baltic
    Slavic
    Albanian
    Thracian...

    *
    If you like theme about propaganda, Albanian communist leader Enver Hoxha and his party insisted on connection/continuity between Albanians and Illyrians:


    Parts of these ideologies were adopted during the Socialist People's Republic of Albania (1945–1991), which was more focused on the Illyrian-Albanian continuity issue[8] and appropriating Ancient Greek history as Albanian.[8]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_nationalism

    *
    Past in many aspects is not known and we here trying to take reasoned debate, whereby scientific papers and books are guiding.
    No surprise here. The person you are quoting could be a psudo scientist, or he might have a valid point. But for historical facts, linguistic or other' a wide consensus among scientists of the field is needed. That consensus regarding Albanian language being satem or centum does not exist. They are split right in the middle. When the hard facts( written evidence) about Illyrian language do not exist then speculators take over. You belong in that group of speculators. It's not that speculators triumph but they can temporarily confuse readers. Close this topic please, again you appear deeply uninformed about the topic you are disscussing. You could be a lot more helpful to disscus Serbian language for instance. Or discuss topics like onother Serbian of this forum was disscussing that Serbs tribes are Germanic extract. It could be a lot more entertaining.

  25. #75
    Regular Member Ike's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by albanopolis View Post
    There is not written or spoken Illyrian language to compare to.
    Quote Originally Posted by albanopolis View Post
    When the hard facts( written evidence) about Illyrian language do not exist then speculators take over.
    Quote Originally Posted by albanopolis View Post
    It's idiotic to claim Illyrian and albanian belong to different families.
    Quote Originally Posted by albanopolis View Post
    The strongest argument of Illyrian connection of albanian language is present day albanian language.
    It's kinda like jumping into your own mouth. Chill out dude.

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