Thracians spoke Balto Slavic language

Garrick said:
From C. S. Coon, 1939. The source is old and we don't know if author realized the research.

But I appreciate it, because in Internet there are a lot of pigment/hair/eyes charts which are from unreliable sources.

I know that in one part of North Albania people have lighter hair than in rest of Albania. Someone can suppose that in that region lived a lot of Slavs and they mostly Albanized. Probably partly there is true.

I will tell my observations from Serbia and Bosnia. I know Serbian/Bosniac people, E-V13 carriers. And they are not much dark. I know E-V13 carrier who have blue hair and eyes. What I want to say, skin/hair/eye colour has no direct link with haplogroup. But my experience is that J2 carriers are most dark.

What I say is not science because, no matter how many haplogroup carriers I know, the sample is small. From my experience J2 carriers in Serbia/Bosnia (and another ex YU countries) are the darkest, not E-V13 carriers.

From my experience Albanians in Western Kosovo, plus Urosevac, Prizren, etc., as in North and Western Macedonia Skopje, Tetovo, Gostivar etc are the darkest. Albanians in Montenegro are the lighter. I know well all regions ex YU where Albanians live. I wasn't in Albania but I believe that south from Tirana population is darker.

Here I must say that issue of skin/hair/eye color can be political incorrect. I don't say explicitly that it is political incorrect but it depends of context. But when participants understand this it is no problem to discuss.
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Lol,are you serious?
What about Askenazi Jews,which have as most present hg J2?
You know they have about 50% light eyes?
And about 20-30% light hair?
Hair color and eyes color are not saying anything about someone autosomal admixture,I have seen North Africans,living in the desert with light blue eyes and Baltic people,quite swarthy,with both dark hair and eyes,scoring very high on NE admixture.
Anyway,this thread is about the theory that Thraco-Dacians were speaking some Balto-Slavic language.
And I was wondering,if that was true,how is possible that Romanians are speaking a centum language,which has a lot of common words with Satem languages - most with South Slavic/Old Church Slavonic,2nd with Albanian,3rd-4th Baltic/Iranian.
A possibility is that Romanians are having most of their language from a population that was in Dacia before Thraco-Dacians came and which was speaking some kind of Italo-Celtic language.
Thraco-Dacians came,they were speaking something closed to Proto-Slavic and this is how Romanian language got lots of words from Slavic.
Roman Empire came and beat Dacians,a part of them run to North Greece (this is what is written in history) but the population from here (Dacia/Romania) continued to speak their language without getting more borrowings from Slavic.
There was a 2nd wave a Slavic speakers that came,around 600AD,but this time they are mixed ,not as blonde and blue eyed as first,since they were allied to some Caucasian people.
Most are passing over the land of Dacia/Romania and settled in Balkans.
Dacians/Romanians are getting allied with Bulgarians and form that empire.
Just a simple theory.
Anyway,if Romanians would do more admixture tests,things would get clearer.
You should know that Serbia was also called Dacia,after Roman Empire conquest,something like "Dacia Ripensis".
 
MOESAN said:
other way to look at things: Thracians were southern I-Eans, maybe close to the mix that gave birth to I-Ean (one of the possible hypothesis helas), a post-neolithical metallurgic culture of Anatolians + Balkanics of West-Black-Sea having acculturated Pit Ware tribes in the current Galicia-Moldavia-Ruthenia region (always Varna-Cucuteni) and taken a semi-nomadic way of life: the Pit-Ware people, learned the I-Ean and made a satem language of it, THE MORE SATEMIZED FORMS, and later, well learned their lessons, became the more R1a (+ a bit of I2a1) and more nomadic I-Eans tribes when the cultures stayed closer to Black Sea kept on more sedentary (more E1b more J2)- the future Catacombs, Greeks, Phrygians, Thracians, Dacians were closer to the southern ones, Slavs and Balts (as Corded) and Timber Grave people closer to the northern ones (and to the people who made the eastern Steppes cultures and Indo-iranian colonization - I think R1b were previously North the Black Sea, but where precisely?
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It is very interesting thinking. I would like to see precisely by the regions deployment haplogroups in Romania. Because this territory can be key for a lot of issues. Romania and Bessarabia link Balkan with Baltic, Pontic steppe, Caucauss etc.

Catacomb culture can be Armenian or Greek Armenian. In that case Catacomb language probably was Satem, as Greek and Armenian. But I think that Phrygian from Asia Minor isn't in that group because it is Centum.

Armenians have significant R1b. But it is R1bht35, which researchers label as Armenian haplotype. It would be interesting to know where R1bht35 is distributed today in Romania because researchers found that it is significant, over 10%.

R1b carriers in Europe all have Centum languages, but R1bht35 have Satem language. Not only Armenian. For example, Albanians who have 16% R1bht35 have Satem language too.

From today's perspective Albanians originate somewhere from Romania. Albanians have E-V13 at the most, and J2 and R1bht35 significant. Maybe we can roughly locate area in today's Romania, Bessarabia or somewhere in region where Albanians originate. Albanians are completely different people compared to the Dacians but they lived close to them and adopted a lot of Dacian/Balto Slavic words.

For me theory that Thracian/Dacian is Balto Slavic that it has many proponents is logical. Of course, if it is true, we can imagine a complex relations between many different tribes (carriers of different of haplogroups) in time of expansion Thracians in the Balkans.
 
mihaitzateo said:
Lol,are you serious?
What about Askenazi Jews,which have as most present hg J2?
You know they have about 50% light eyes?
And about 20-30% light hair?
Hair color and eyes color are not saying anything about someone autosomal admixture,I have seen North Africans,living in the desert with light blue eyes and Baltic people,quite swarthy,with both dark hair and eyes,scoring very high on NE admixture.
Anyway,this thread is about the theory that Thraco-Dacians were speaking some Balto-Slavic language.
And I was wondering,if that was true,how is possible that Romanians are speaking a centum language,which has a lot of common words with Satem languages - most with South Slavic/Old Church Slavonic,2nd with Albanian,3rd-4th Baltic/Iranian.
A possibility is that Romanians are having most of their language from a population that was in Dacia before Thraco-Dacians came and which was speaking some kind of Italo-Celtic language.
Thraco-Dacians came,they were speaking something closed to Proto-Slavic and this is how Romanian language got lots of words from Slavic.
Roman Empire came and beat Dacians,a part of them run to North Greece (this is what is written in history) but the population from here (Dacia/Romania) continued to speak their language without getting more borrowings from Slavic.
There was a 2nd wave a Slavic speakers that came,around 600AD,but this time they are mixed ,not as blonde and blue eyed as first,since they were allied to some Caucasian people.
Most are passing over the land of Dacia/Romania and settled in Balkans.
Dacians/Romanians are getting allied with Bulgarians and form that empire.
Just a simple theory.
Anyway,if Romanians would do more admixture tests,things would get clearer.
You should know that Serbia was also called Dacia,after Roman Empire conquest,something like "Dacia Ripensis".
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Yes, you right, but I think I was clear that it was solely based on people who have been tested and this is a very very small sample, and certainly not relevant.

Plus I have mentioned several times that haplogroup is not associated with pigment/hair color, you can see for example man from Yorkshire who is A haplogroup carrier and he is light.

But a serious research on the subject in more countries would give more accurate answers.

I didn't realise test for me and probably I will not do in next year, but of course I will do, maybe a day will come when all people will have Y-DNA and mt-DNA result recorded in the chip, who knows.

If you think the Moesians (Moesi), they were Dacian/Thracian tribe, they lived in territory today's Serbia, Bulgaria and Romania; I told you watching haplogroups Serbia and Romania are very similar, in Serbia I2a is higher than Romania, in Romania J2 is higher than Serbia, and R1bht35.
 
mihaitzateo said:
Take the Serbians have as folk tradition they are "wolf people" and they are descending from a wolf and Dacians were also calling themselves "wolf people" and they were saying that are descending from a wolf.
They also have the "vucari" tradition,some tradition linked to wolves.
Notice that Eastern Slavs do not have tradition with wolves.
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This is very good observation, among Serbs is strong cult of wolf. I would like that Baltic Tribe or anyone else from Lithuania/Latvia explain if cult of wolf exists in Baltic.
 
According to legend, Grand Duke Gediminas at his time of reign dreamt of an iron wolf howling on a hilltop and consulted a pagan priest for its interpretation. He was told: "What is destined for the ruler and the State of Lithuania, is thus: the Iron Wolf represents a castle and a city which will be established by you on this site. This city will be the capital of the Lithuanian lands and the dwelling of their rulers, and the glory of their deeds shall echo throughout the world. The location offered practical advantages: it lay within the Lithuanian heartland at the confluence of two navigable rivers, surrounded by forests and wetlands that were difficult to penetrate. The duchy had been subject to intrusions by the Teutonic Knights.
Today Iron Wolf is one of the symbols of Vilnius and is used by sports teams, Lithuanian military, scouting organizations, and others.
So yes, wolf – in this case iron wolf is embedded in Lithuania’s historic vision but not so much in folklore. And that is, because Christianity destroyed many old traditions and ancient symbols when it was introduced in Lithuania. Therefore our folklore for the last few centuries reflects rather feminine side and values of one’s consciousness. I’m not judging which would be better, it’s just an observation. Interestingly, every country in Europe bears female gender name. Has it not got to do with Christianity? But that’s another topic.
 
A very strange resemblances between Slavic,Lithuanians and Romanians speakers is that to welcome someone with bread and salt.
Lithuanian and Romanian have a cognate,that is not present in any other Europeans languages,that is Daina in Lithuanian with Doina in Romanian,with same meaning (a song).
Another strange fact is that when Turkic tribes came in Romania,around 1000 or later,some Romanians migrated,in Slovakia and Poland.
Question is,why some Romance speakers migrated there and not in Italy?
They were also having mountains in Italy,to raise there sheeps .
A part of these Romanians gave Gorals from Poland.
(another part remained in Slovakia and since they were not getting well with the Austrian leaders,from the times of Austro-Hungarian empire,they got into a conflict with Austrian troops and most were killed).
This is attested by some writings,which are telling about some villages of Romanians,in Poland.
 
Garrick said:
Theory



Thracian/Dacian as Illyrian has same or similar words as Balto Slavic languages.
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Thracian and Dacian were closer to Baltic, since Slavic is a much younger language(in this scenario,a mix of Baltic,East-Germanic,Thracian and Iranic,formed in Chernyakhov), or at least,it was much later attested.By that time, Slavic was heavely Germanized,plus the Iranian influences.
Very interesting is Giuliano Bonfante's idea, that Slavic was influenced by Proto-Romanian,especially on the phonetic ground.
He noticed very well that words like 'balta'( a pool,lake,swamp) and 'gard'(a fence) weren't borrowed from Slavic(see page 309) ,because they don't follow the Slavic-Romanian sound shifts.
http://issuu.com/settantatre/docs/177_pdfsam_ct-lodlno

These 2 words are connected to Lithuanian "baltas"(white),although not the same meaning ,it is the phonetics who make the rules, and "gards", but Romanian "gard" most likely came from East-Germanic,same thing with "teafar"(unharmed),probably borrowed from the Eastern Empire's Gothic mercenaries ( see Old-Scandinavian "taufr\taufir").

http://blottytinesrunemagic.blogspot.ro/2009/09/galdr-and-taufr.html


http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Germanic/gardaz#Proto-Germanic




'Kmotra", a word who appears in all the Slavic languages,most likely was borrowed from Proto-Romanian see Paliga page 113).

http://www.romanoslavica.ro/revista/46.4. de toate.pdf


Back to Thracian-Dacian-Balto-Slavic similarities:


Romanian 'erete',( a hawk, a kite), Lithuanian "erelis"(an eagle)
Oroles(The Eagle),a Dacian king, Russian 'orel' read 'oriol', same meaning).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oryol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orel


Lithuanian 'girre '- see Dacian town Giridava.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giridava
 
I also think South Slavic formed after the migration of Eastern Germanic tribes.
As for Eastern Slavic branches,those formed even later,for example around 1000 when Kievan Rus was formed,Ukrainian and Russian did not existed,just a common Slavic language,that was spoke there.What kind of Slavic language was that,some kind of proto-Eastern Slavic,I guess.
So is clear that even in 1200 Russian language was not formed,they were speaking some kind of Proto-Slavic influenced by East Germanic and North Germanic.
Here another cognate,between Romanian and Old Russian,to attest the fact that Thraco-Dacian were speaking something closed to Balto-Slavic:
Romanian - târg - Old Russian търгъ (târgâ) - marketplace
The cyrillic letter ъ corresponds to the sound â from Romanian
 
The Wolf symbolizes honor and is also considered the mother of most Turkic peoples. Asena is the name of one of the ten sons who were given birth by a mythical wolf in Turkic mythology.[2][3][4][5]
The legend tells of a young boy who survived a battle. A she-wolf finds the injured child and nurses him back to health. He subsequently impregnates the wolf which then gives birth to ten half-wolf, half-human boys. One of these, Ashina, becomes their leader and instaures the Ashina clan which ruled the Göktürks and other Turkic nomadic empires.[6][7] The wolf, pregnant with the boy's offspring, escaped her enemies by crossing the Western Sea to a cave near to the Qocho mountains, one of the cities of the Tocharians. The first Turks subsequently migrated to the Altai regions, where they are known as expert in ironworkers, as the Scythians are also known to have been.[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_mythology
 
Many characteristics of the Dacian language are disputed or unknown. No lengthy texts in Dacian exist, only a few glosses and personal names in ancient Greek and Latin texts. No Dacian-language inscriptions have been discovered, except some of names in the Latin or Greek alphabet. What is known about the language derives from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_language
 
Berga(s) (Thracian), breg (Serbian), hill (English)
Beras (Thracian), ridj (Serbian), beris (Lithuanian), brown, sorrel (English)
Briza (Thracian), riža, pirinač (Serbian), ryžis (Lithuanian), rice (English)
Dumas (Thracian), taman (Serbian), tumšs (Latvian), dark (English)
Gaidrus (Thracian), izražen (Serbian), giedras (Lithuanian), clear (English)
Ketri (Thracian), četiri (Serbian, pron. similar as kyetiri), četri (Latvian), four (English)
Lingas (Thracian), livada (Serbian), lanka (Lithuanian), meadow (English)
Pras (Thracian), prati (Serbian), praustas (Lithuanian), wash (English)
Ramus (Thracian), miran (Serbian), ramus (Lithuanian), calm (English)
Trausoi (Thracian), trošan (Serbian), trausls (Latvian), friable, friagle (English)
Tarpo (Thracian), trap (Serbian), tarpos (Lithuanian), gap, interspace (English)
 
I’m really surprised how some of the words share so much similarity between Lithuanian and Thracian languages.
Having said that, we cannot rule out a possibility that languages in time import and export some of the words.
The idea of common roots between Balto-Slavic languages is being contested.
For example, Latvian linguist Jānis Endzelīns thought, that any similarities among Baltic and Slavic languages were a result of an intensive language contact, i.e., that they were not genetically related and that there was no common Proto-Balto-Slavic language.
It’s like French and English languages. They’ve got different roots, but today both languages share so many words.
Antoine Meillet , the distinguished French Indo-Europeanist, in reaction to a second simplified theory of Schleicher's, propounded a view according to which all similarities of Baltic and Slavic occurred accidentally, by independent parallel development, and that there was no Proto-Balto-Slavic language.
Although other theories support idea of proto Balto-Slavic language development.
 
Baltic tribes said:
I’m really surprised how some of the words share so much similarity between Lithuanian and Thracian languages.
Having said that, we cannot rule out a possibility that languages in time import and export some of the words.
The idea of common roots between Balto-Slavic languages is being contested.
For example, Latvian linguist Jānis Endzelīns thought, that any similarities among Baltic and Slavic languages were a result of an intensive language contact, i.e., that they were not genetically related and that there was no common Proto-Balto-Slavic language.
It’s like French and English languages. They’ve got different roots, but today both languages share so many words.
Antoine Meillet , the distinguished French Indo-Europeanist, in reaction to a second simplified theory of Schleicher's, propounded a view according to which all similarities of Baltic and Slavic occurred accidentally, by independent parallel development, and that there was no Proto-Balto-Slavic language.
Although other theories support idea of proto Balto-Slavic language development.
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Well since both are Satem language and the paternal lines and autosomal genetics are so closed,between North Eastern Slavs and Lavtians and Lithuanians (I mean people from Belarus,North Russia) ,I doubt that these languages are not coming from a common root.
 
Garrick said:
It is mistake. Tracian is Satem as Balto Slavic. Illyrian is Centum.
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it is no more the scholars dominant opinion - Illyrian could very well be a satem language - it is true the remnants of it are very scarce - but long enough, Illyrian was mistaken with venetic dialects of the roman north "Illyricum" and its territory too much magnified
 
Baltic tribes said:
I’m really surprised how some of the words share so much similarity between Lithuanian and Thracian languages.
Having said that, we cannot rule out a possibility that languages in time import and export some of the words.
The idea of common roots between Balto-Slavic languages is being contested.
For example, Latvian linguist Jānis Endzelīns thought, that any similarities among Baltic and Slavic languages were a result of an intensive language contact, i.e., that they were not genetically related and that there was no common Proto-Balto-Slavic language.
It’s like French and English languages. They’ve got different roots, but today both languages share so many words.
Antoine Meillet , the distinguished French Indo-Europeanist, in reaction to a second simplified theory of Schleicher's, propounded a view according to which all similarities of Baltic and Slavic occurred accidentally, by independent parallel development, and that there was no Proto-Balto-Slavic language.
Although other theories support idea of proto Balto-Slavic language development.
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I find the observations of Mihaitzateo full of good sense, concerning genetic - if I think the satem links with Thracians could be old enough, I think nevertheless Baltic and Slavic surely shared some common ancestry at some stage of History - baltic seems just more conservative than slavic and it could explain the proximity with thracian? maybe the good answer is that Slavic and Baltic are the heritage of a same satme old language learned by close but already separated populations? hard to be sure - a substrate slightly different: more finno-ugric among Balts, more carpathian among Slavs?
 
MOESAN said:
it is no more the scholars dominant opinion - Illyrian could very well be a satem language - it is true the remnants of it are very scarce - but long enough, Illyrian was mistaken with venetic dialects of the roman north "Illyricum" and its territory too much magnified
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I thought Illyrian should be Satem because I2a/R1a carriers were Illyrians and they surely spoke Satem language (a variant of Balto Slavic).

However science says that Illyrian is Centum. It can be only due to influence R1b from North, or maybe R1b carriers had much higher number/impact in Illyrian population.
 
The only people that have been identified as Illyrians (Herodotus/Strabo) and whose ancient language has survived is Venetic and its a centum Indo-European language close to Keltic and Italic; No other ancient Illyrian language has survived to be classified or compared; 3 tribes are classified and are centum so why should the rest be diff. - not really possible;
 
Nobody1 said:
The only people that have been identified as Illyrians (Herodotus/Strabo) and whose ancient language has survived is Venetic and its a centum Indo-European language close to Keltic and Italic; No other ancient Illyrian language has survived to be classified or compared; 3 tribes are classified and are centum so why should the rest be diff. - not really possible;
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Yes, Illyrian ic Centum.

Centum and Satem are mutually exclusive, therefore for example Illyrian and Albanian have no connection.

And respectable Albanian linguist Henrik Bariqi says that Albanian as Satem language cannot have link with Illyrian.

Since the Illyrian is undoubtedly Centum R1b carriers from North had big impact among Illyrians, while R1b carriers didn't have impact at Thracians (language of Thracians is Satem as Balto Slavic).

Illyrians probably were mix R1b/R1a/I2a carriers.
 
Garrick said:
Yes, Illyrian ic Centum.

Centum and Satem are mutually exclusive, therefore for example Illyrian and Albanian have no connection.

And respectable Albanian linguist Henrik Bariqi says that Albanian as Satem language cannot have link with Illyrian.

Since the Illyrian is undoubtedly Centum R1b carriers from North had big impact among Illyrians, while R1b carriers didn't have impact at Thracians (language of Thracians is Satem as Balto Slavic).

Illyrians probably were mix R1b/R1a/I2a carriers.
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You should do something else in life instead of discussing things you appear to have e no knowledge.It's idiotic to claim Illyrian and albanian belong to different families. The linguists have stated that Albanian language its not a clear case centum or satem. They are divided half and half. It appears you read a lot of Serbian propoganda and try to create smoke to readers of this forum. You are not going to get anywhere. We not going to let you talking trash!
 
albanopolis said:
You should do something else in life instead of discussing things you appear to have e no knowledge.It's idiotic to claim Illyrian and albanian belong to different families. The linguists have stated that Albanian language its not a clear case centum or satem. They are divided half and half. It appears you read a lot of Serbian propoganda and try to create smoke to readers of this forum. You are not going to get anywhere. We not going to let you talking trash!
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The easiest way to discredit someone with sharp words. But open forum requires dialogue. Everyone is free to present arguments. Linguistic science says that Satem and Centum are mutually exclusive. Who thinks differently to some arguments based on solid foundations, not ideology. Science and research are based on facts, without facts is futile belief.
 
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