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Thread: Thracians spoke Balto Slavic language

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    Thracians spoke Balto Slavic language

    Theory

    Thracians/Dacians were I2a/R1a people.

    There are various hypothesis however it is logical that I2a/R1a people have similar languages to some extent.

    Thracian/Dacian as Illyrian has same or similar words as Balto Slavic languages.

    There is one of theory that Thracian is Baltic language, and that theory has basis.

    For example:

    balios (Thracian), baltus (Luthuanian), belo (Serbian), white (English)
    zilma (Thracian), zelme (Latvian), zelen (Serbian), greens (English)
    udra (Thracian), ūdra (Lithanian), vidra (Serbian), otter (English)
    gin (Thracian), gnins (Latvian), gnjiti (Serbian), spoil, decay (English)
    brink (Thracian), brinkti (Lithuanian), breknuti (Serbian), swell (English)
    kiri (Thracian), giria, gire (Lithuanian), gora (Serbian), mountain forest (English)
    saltas, zaldas (Thracian), zelt (Latvian), zlato (Serbian), gold (English)
    zum, zuml (Thracian), zmaj, zmija (Serbian), dragon, snake (English)
    laza (Thracian), laz, lazina (Serbian), clearing in forest (English)

    Etc.

    There are a lot of authors who claim that Thracian is Balto Slavic language, and it is not new, for example several authors and books:

    Neroznak, V. Paleo-Balkan Languages. Moscow, 1978.
    Fasmer, M. Etymological Dictionary of the Russian Language. Moscow, 1986.
    Duridanov, I. Ezikyt na trakite, Sofia, 1976.

    If someone sees geography he identifies that Balto Slavic people and Thracians easily can be linked geneticaly and linguistic:



    Balto-Slavic people and Thracians are R1a/I2a people, and they spoke languages which belong Balto-Slavic group.

    It is so logical.

    It is very difficult that Illyrians were not R1a/I2a people, so and Illyrians spoke Balto Slavic. But here is topic: Thracians.

    But Macedonians maybe, it is possible that Macedonians were mostly E-V13/J2 people.

    Today's Serbs, Bulgarians, Romanians, etc. are partly descendants of Thracians. Romanians are romanized, but old language Dacian was one of Thracian branch and Balto Slavic too.

    When Slavic people enter in today's Serbia, Bulgaria etc. the local residents are already talking a similar language. They were similar origin, similar haplogroups and they had similar language. We will not speculate about numerous impact Slavs but it is possible that was about 5% Slavs, and all others were local residents (Thracians etc.).

    When asked where the Thracians lost answer is: nowhere, they remain where they were (today's Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania etc.).

    It is topic to provoke discussion. The theory is very logical according to genetic, liguistic and hystoric sources.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Theory

    Thracians/Dacians were I2a/R1a people.

    There are various hypothesis however it is logical that I2a/R1a people have similar languages to some extent.

    Thracian/Dacian as Illyrian has same or similar words as Balto Slavic languages.

    There is one of theory that Thracian is Baltic language, and that theory has basis.

    For example:

    balios (Thracian), baltus (Luthuanian), belo (Serbian), white (English)
    zilma (Thracian), zelme (Latvian), zelen (Serbian), greens (English)
    udra (Thracian), ūdra (Lithanian), vidra (Serbian), otter (English)
    gin (Thracian), gnins (Latvian), gnjiti (Serbian), spoil, decay (English)
    brink (Thracian), brinkti (Lithuanian), breknuti (Serbian), swell (English)
    kiri (Thracian), giria, gire (Lithuanian), gora (Serbian), mountain forest (English)
    saltas, zaldas (Thracian), zelt (Latvian), zlato (Serbian), gold (English)
    zum, zuml (Thracian), zmaj, zmija (Serbian), dragon, snake (English)
    laza (Thracian), laz, lazina (Serbian), clearing in forest (English)

    Etc.

    There are a lot of authors who claim that Thracian is Balto Slavic language, and it is not new, for example several authors and books:

    Neroznak, V. Paleo-Balkan Languages. Moscow, 1978.
    Fasmer, M. Etymological Dictionary of the Russian Language. Moscow, 1986.
    Duridanov, I. Ezikyt na trakite, Sofia, 1976.

    If someone sees geography he identifies that Balto Slavic people and Thracians easily can be linked geneticaly and linguistic:



    Balto-Slavic people and Thracians are R1a/I2a people, and they spoke languages which belong Balto-Slavic group.

    It is so logical.

    It is very difficult that Illyrians were not R1a/I2a people, so and Illyrians spoke Balto Slavic. But here is topic: Thracians.

    But Macedonians maybe, it is possible that Macedonians were mostly E-V13/J2 people.

    Today's Serbs, Bulgarians, Romanians, etc. are partly descendants of Thracians. Romanians are romanized, but old language Dacian was one of Thracian branch and Balto Slavic too.

    When Slavic people enter in today's Serbia, Bulgaria etc. the local residents are already talking a similar language. They were similar origin, similar haplogroups and they had similar language. We will not speculate about numerous impact Slavs but it is possible that was about 5% Slavs, and all others were local residents (Thracians etc.).

    When asked where the Thracians lost answer is: nowhere, they remain where they were (today's Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania etc.).

    It is topic to provoke discussion. The theory is very logical according to genetic, liguistic and hystoric sources.
    I have also seen historical text by greeks stating that the thracians language was as far as the baltic sea
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I have also seen historical text by greeks stating that the thracians language was as far as the baltic sea
    Yes, people make mistake when watch today's borders of Lithuania and Latvia. Once Baltic people (mostly R1a/I2a) were from Aegean sea to Baltic sea.

    There are three opinions among scientists. Thracians spoke language much closer to Baltic languages, Thracians spoke language closer to Slavic (South Slavic) languages and Thracians spoke language which was between Baltic and Slavic people.

    I will try to give a lot of examples Thracian, Lithuanian/Latvian and Serbian/South Slavic words and more.

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    The Serbs were continuously described as Triballi in the Medieval times;
    The Triballi being in Ancient times clearly stated as Thracian;

    Balto-Slavs and Thracians could all be connected (same stock/branch) within the Indo-European family;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    The Serbs were continuously described as Triballi in the Medieval times;
    The Triballi being in Ancient times clearly stated as Thracian;

    Balto-Slavs and Thracians could all be connected (same stock/branch) within the Indo-European family;
    Tribali, Moesians and other Thracian tribes are today's Serbs.

    There is theory that Serbs are mostly Thracian origin.

    One part of Serbs are descendants of Illyrians, they are Western Serbs in Bosnia, Herzegovina, Dalmatia, Lika, etc.

    Some Serbs have Slavic, Celtic, Greek origin etc.

    Inhabitants one of Serbian state were Racians. Contrary to some opinions coming Slavs in Balkans in 5th century was not a numerous. And Slavs didn't destroy existed population.And Slavs and natives spoke similar languages.

    Slavs became part of that population, in Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece, Romania, Hungary etc. There is smaller percentage R1a in Serbia than in Hungary or Romania. And in North Greece is higher percentage R1a than in Serbia. And Thracians had significant R1a.

    Assumption is that:
    The mass arrival of Slavs from 5th to 7th centuries could not exist because the population of the Balkans did not increase and in other side there was no destruction of the native population. Slavs from North slightly changed the structure of native Balkan inhabitants. We don't know all facts, of course further studies are needed.

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    I have to read into these numbers’ theory. I’m not familiar with this yet. Therefore I could not give a solid opinion in this moment of time.
    What we have been taught in schools though, that there were west balts residing near Baltic sea in current Lithuania, Latvia, ex-Prussia, Belarus regions and there were east balts, residing from west Belarus up to Ural mountains. Slavs accordingly resided in the area between current Moscow and Sankt-Peterburg. So, if you can call it Balto-Slavic, then your map exactly matches what we have been taught. As I can see Balto-Slavic territory marks from Baltic sea roughly up to Ural mountains in the east.
    Having assumed that, I have reservations towards Baltic – Slavic languages’ similarities. Lithuanian an Latvian languages, the only countries that belong to Baltic tribes’ origin, are distinctly different from Slavic languages. Russian, polish, ukranian, bulgarian, serbian, chech, slovakian languages are very similar. That’s not to say culturally Baltic and Slavic have no similarities.
    This theory about Thracian is very interesting. We have an ancient capital which is called Trakai and which lies about 30km from the current capital Vilnius.
    I heard this theory that links Thracian with Balts, but I have to read about this more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baltic tribes View Post
    I have to read into these numbers’ theory. I’m not familiar with this yet. Therefore I could not give a solid opinion in this moment of time.
    What we have been taught in schools though, that there were west balts residing near Baltic sea in current Lithuania, Latvia, ex-Prussia, Belarus regions and there were east balts, residing from west Belarus up to Ural mountains. Slavs accordingly resided in the area between current Moscow and Sankt-Peterburg. So, if you can call it Balto-Slavic, then your map exactly matches what we have been taught. As I can see Balto-Slavic territory marks from Baltic sea roughly up to Ural mountains in the east.
    Having assumed that, I have reservations towards Baltic – Slavic languages’ similarities. Lithuanian an Latvian languages, the only countries that belong to Baltic tribes’ origin, are distinctly different from Slavic languages. Russian, polish, ukranian, bulgarian, serbian, chech, slovakian languages are very similar. That’s not to say culturally Baltic and Slavic have no similarities.
    This theory about Thracian is very interesting. We have an ancient capital which is called Trakai and which lies about 30km from the current capital Vilnius.
    I heard this theory that links Thracian with Balts, but I have to read about this more.
    There are opinions that once Baltic people stretched from Aegean to Baltic sea, if it is true they assimilated in other people (Slavs, Germans, Greeks etc.) but haplogoups remained (and language to some extent).

    Words (continue):

    Braterais (Thracian), brala (Latvian), braća, bratstvo (Serbian), brothers (English)
    Darsioi (Thracian), drasus (Lithuanian), drčan (Serbian), brave (English)
    Diesema (Thracian), divizma (Serbian), mullein (English)
    Diza (Thrachian), zid, zidati (Serbian), wall (English)
    Dinupula (Thracian), dinja (Serbian), wild pumpkin (English )
    Sica (Thracian), seći (Serbian), cut (English)
    Berzas (Thracian), beržas (Lithuanian), breza (Serbian), birch (English)
    Burt, burd (Thracian), brod (Serbian), sheep (English)
    Ana (Thracian), ant (Lithuanian), na (Serbian), on (English)
    Bruzas (Thracian), bruožti (Lithuanian), brz, brzo (Serbian), fast, walk fast (English)
    Dama (Thracian), dom (Serbian), place for dwelling (English)
    Bebrus (Thracian), dabar (Serbian), Bebrs (Latvian), beaver (English)

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    There is a very good theory,which proves that Slavic languages formed more North,than actual land of Romania.
    As for Baltic languages,did not read much about those.
    Slavic languages have too many mutual inteligibility to have formed a lot of time before.
    I suppose that the 3 branches of Slavic formed around 600 AD when Slavs started to move.
    As for Baltic and Slavic split,no idea when that occured.
    So thing is,was a common Satem IE language from which Balto-Slavic,Iranian,Armenian,Albanian appeared.
    To tell that the common Satem language was Balto-Slavic,I do not think is true.
    Is clear that Thracians were present on current land of Turkey also since there it was Troy.
    EDIT:
    Is not a good thing to try find cognates between current Slavic languages and Thracian,try better to find a book with Proto-Slavic
    (is said Old Church Slavonic is closest to Proto-Slavic),or Old Russian and search cognates there.
    Here a cognate between Slavic and Romanian,to show how Slavic languages got Germanic borrowings:
    snow - zapada (romanian from zapadati which means in slavic to pour snow)
    All Slavic languages got as word for snow the borrowing from Germanic ,search and see,cause I am too lazy to put all these words here.
    And here a cognate,to show how Romanian kept words from Proto-Slavic but other Slavic languages,do not have these words anymore:
    stranger - Old Church Slavonic - strainu - old Romanian - strainu - actual Romanian - strain - Serbian stranac.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    There are opinions that once Baltic people stretched from Aegean to Baltic sea, if it is true they assimilated in other people (Slavs, Germans, Greeks etc.) but haplogoups remained (and language to some extent).

    Words (continue):

    Braterais (Thracian), brala (Latvian), braća, bratstvo (Serbian), brothers (English)
    Darsioi (Thracian), drasus (Lithuanian), drčan (Serbian), brave (English)
    Diesema (Thracian), divizma (Serbian), mullein (English)
    Diza (Thrachian), zid, zidati (Serbian), wall (English)
    Dinupula (Thracian), dinja (Serbian), wild pumpkin (English )
    Sica (Thracian), seći (Serbian), cut (English)
    Berzas (Thracian), beržas (Lithuanian), breza (Serbian), birch (English)
    Burt, burd (Thracian), brod (Serbian), sheep (English)
    Ana (Thracian), ant (Lithuanian), na (Serbian), on (English)
    Bruzas (Thracian), bruožti (Lithuanian), brz, brzo (Serbian), fast, walk fast (English)
    Dama (Thracian), dom (Serbian), place for dwelling (English)
    Bebrus (Thracian), dabar (Serbian), Bebrs (Latvian), beaver (English)


    thanks for the thracian words you provide us -
    but let' s be cautious a bit concerning identity of Thracian and ancient balto-Slavic: yet 'balto-slavic' describes a supposed (with good reasons) anterior stage of the languages - the partial likeness of Thracian to balto-slavic languages is the result of their older 'satem' origin - surely thracian was closer to baltic and slavic ancient languages than to say, armenian or italic or germanic or greek but I think it was already separated from them for some time ...

    &: some of the similarities between words you put here are the result of P-I-E cognates we find in other I-E languages of today - only the phonetic evolution (satem) gives them a greater likeness to balto-slavic... the words for brother, to cut, birch, sheep, dwelling, beaver have cognates in languages of other I-E families...as for white, otter, gold, and maybe clearing - what is sure is that it was a satem language and that in more remote time, thracian was closer to balto-slavic, but at historic times in S-E Europe it was well distinct, was itn't?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    There is a very good theory,which proves that Slavic languages formed more North,than actual land of Romania.
    As for Baltic languages,did not read much about those.
    Slavic languages have too many mutual inteligibility to have formed a lot of time before.
    I suppose that the 3 branches of Slavic formed around 600 AD when Slavs started to move.
    As for Baltic and Slavic split,no idea when that occured.
    So thing is,was a common Satem IE language from which Balto-Slavic,Iranian,Armenian,Albanian appeared.
    To tell that the common Satem language was Balto-Slavic,I do not think is true.
    Is clear that Thracians were present on current land of Turkey also since there it was Troy.
    EDIT:
    Is not a good thing to try find cognates between current Slavic languages and Thracian,try better to find a book with Proto-Slavic
    (is said Old Church Slavonic is closest to Proto-Slavic),or Old Russian and search cognates there.
    Here a cognate between Slavic and Romanian,to show how Slavic languages got Germanic borrowings:
    snow - zapada (romanian from zapadati which means in slavic to pour snow)
    All Slavic languages got as word for snow the borrowing from Germanic ,search and see,cause I am too lazy to put all these words here.
    And here a cognate,to show how Romanian kept words from Proto-Slavic but other Slavic languages,do not have these words anymore:
    stranger - Old Church Slavonic - strainu - old Romanian - strainu - actual Romanian - strain - Serbian stranac.
    You speak about modern Slavic. Proto Balto Slavic developed from 3000 BC to 1000 BC. And it had contacts with Proto Germanic, you can see, for example in Wikipedia:

    "The phonological changes which set Balto-Slavic apart from other Indo-European languages probably lasted from c. 3000 to 1000 BCE, a period known as common Proto-Balto-Slavic.[2] Kortlandt (1990) links the earliest stages of Balto-Slavic development with the Middle Dnieper culture which connects the Corded Ware and Yamna cultures. Kurganists connect the latter two cultures with the so-called "Northwest (IE) group"[3] and the Iranian-speaking steppe nomads, respectively. This fits with the linguistic evidence in that Balto-Slavic appears to have had close contacts with Indo-Iranian and Proto-Germanic."

    This picture shows approximate borders between Balto Slavic speakers and Thracians/Dacians.



    Baltic people, proto Slavs, Thracians, Dacians etc., all of them are R1a/I2a people. And it is clear that languages are similar.

    Today's Romanian language descends from Vulgar Latin. Process of Romanization in Dacia was due early centuries AD.

    However original Dacain language was similar Thracian, and related to Balto Slavic.

    Romanian haplogroups are similar with Serbian, and in Romania I2a and R1a are most widespread haplogroups.

    J2 in Romania is probably spreaded with Greek trade colonies from 7th BC. Certainly J2 carriers could occurs also in other ways. E-V13 shows similar proportion as at other Balkan people.

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    I do not think that Thraco-Dacians did not had also J2.
    And I think that R1b-Ht35 is from Thracians also.
    Remember that Thracians were said to be a very numerous people,that only Indians were said to be more than Thracians.
    So many people,all bearing only R1A and I2a-din?
    I do not think so.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I have exact opinion as Meosan. All we can conclude is that Thracian was a Satem language with not distant relation to Balto-Slavic. Some time ago someone posted Dacian vocabulary, IIRC I could find even greater similarity to Slavic. But it was some time ago and I'm not sure about this anymore.
    I think Balto-Slavic took place right after Corded Ware expansion, with split for Baltic and Slavic around 2,000-1,000BC.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post



    Romanian haplogroups are similar with Serbian, and in Romania I2a and R1a are most widespread haplogroups.

    J2 in Romania is probably spreaded with Greek trade colonies from 7th BC. Certainly J2 carriers could occurs also in other ways. E-V13 shows similar proportion as at other Balkan people.
    The early farmers (J,G,E,T) had spread around south europe long before R1a and I2a could compete with them in numbers. Usually Farmers outnumber hunter-gatherers 10 to 1. It was only around Corded Ware expansion time when R1a and I2a became agriculturalists and could compete with EEF. I think R1a and I2a started moving down to Balkans during late bronze and iron age. Although I don't think there was a big impact on local population haplogroups, perhaps more of cultural (warrior/ruling class) phenomenon of Thracian and Dacian. The biggest change came during Slavic expansion bringing a lot of I2a and R1a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    I do not think that Thraco-Dacians did not had also J2.
    And I think that R1b-Ht35 is from Thracians also.
    Remember that Thracians were said to be a very numerous people,that only Indians were said to be more than Thracians.
    So many people,all bearing only R1A and I2a-din?
    I do not think so.
    Thracians/Dacians had surely J2 and E-V13. And I1 also. Probably G. From R1b, different branches.

    But R1a/I2a is common haplogroups for Thracians, Dacians, Cimmerians, Slavs and R1a for Baltic tribes. And it is clear that their languages should be similar in some extent. Yes, their languages are all satem.

    Surely, Thracians were numerouos. This is one free Romanian interpretation, based in Herodot:


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    The Thrachian language was thracian!! The only related language to it was Illyrian!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    The early farmers (J,G,E,T) had spread around south europe long before R1a and I2a could compete with them in numbers. Usually Farmers outnumber hunter-gatherers 10 to 1. It was only around Corded Ware expansion time when R1a and I2a became agriculturalists and could compete with EEF. I think R1a and I2a started moving down to Balkans during late bronze and iron age. Although I don't think there was a big impact on local population haplogroups, perhaps more of cultural (warrior/ruling class) phenomenon of Thracian and Dacian. The biggest change came during Slavic expansion bringing a lot of I2a and R1a.
    Things are more complex.

    From today's haplogroups probably first inhabitants of Balkans were I carriers. We speak about Paleolithic.

    American scientists Regueiro et al. based on research in Serbia claim that R1a carriers came to the Balkans in later Paleolithic or Early Holocene. And other authors write that R1a came to the Balkans probably in the early Holocene, about 10,000 years ago.

    Yes they were hunters. In that time probably haplogroups in the Balkans were I, R1a.

    E carriers (E-V13) could came to the Balkans only in Neolithic. In the Balkans found skeletons with Negroid features, it is assumption that they were E carriers but research of haplogroup has not be done.

    It is possible that G carriers once were numerous in some extent. We don't know who between G and E carriers came first to the Balkans, but probably their paths were different.

    Scientists sometimes link E and J carriers, probably due to agriculture and paths of movement. E haplogroup is from North Africa, J haplogroup is from the Middle East. It is possible that their paths were Crossword.

    But I think that E carriers arrived earlier to the Balkans compared with J carriers. When did E and J arrive? We don't know.

    In Serbia there are several well-preserved sites of the ancient cultures, most known are Lepen Whirl and Vinca.

    Candidates for Lepen Whirl are I and R1a carriers first of all. Maybe we can consider E-V13 but Lepen Whirl was hunter gatherer culture (and gradual transition toward agriculture). Lepen Whirl culture begun 7,000 year BC and E-V13 carriers were not in that time. Lepen Whirl had peak between 5,300 BC and 4,800 BC.

    Vinca culture dated to the period 5,500-4,500 BC. Vincian culture was mixed between agriculture, hunting and gathering and animal husbandry. Haplogroup candidates for this culture is more, it is the best to be realize Y-DNA tests of skeletons.

    Paths of I1 haplogroup to the Balkans didn't sufficiently investigate. I think I1 is old in the Balkans. Opinion is based in the facts that in all Balkan nations I1 is fairly evenly distributed. The highest score of I1 is in Serbia.

    R1b in the Balkans have several branch. At Albanians and Greeks dominate R1b ht35, Armenian haplotype. In others parts we can find M405 (U106), U152 etc.

    Therefore, first inhabitants of Balkans of today's haplogroups were I carriers. In period of start of Lepen Whirl (7,000 years BC) and earlier it is probably that I and R1a carriers were present. Did at one point later (for example in 3000 BC) E and J carriers were more numerous we don't know for now. Surely in that time were G and T carriers.

    However new R1a and I (I2a) carriers arived from 3,000 BC. It was second wave coming R1a to Balkans. And Thracians are part of that wave. Thracians as Cimmerians were R1a/I2a carriers, and they mixed with other populations.

    Surely, we don't know a lot of things but new researches will give more answers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Things are more complex.

    From today's haplogroups probably first inhabitants of Balkans were I carriers. We speak about Paleolithic.

    American scientists Regueiro et al. based on research in Serbia claim that R1a carriers came to the Balkans in later Paleolithic or Early Holocene. And other authors write that R1a came to the Balkans probably in the early Holocene, about 10,000 years ago.

    Yes they were hunters. In that time probably haplogroups in the Balkans were I, R1a.
    That's the point. They were h-gs, and even though they were in Balkans in Paleolithic, they were replaced and pushed north by farmers from Middle East. There is no reason to suspect that they embraced farming quickly and could sustain competition for existence with farmers. How hard is to make a switch, one can check how many North American Indians or Australian Aborigines became farmers after Europeans showed them how successful farming is. The answer is, very few and between. If not granting them lands on reserves and government help they would have been relegated to just few secluded and inaccessible places, and almost extinct. They still prefer hunting these days than do anything related to farming. Cultural habit and genetic predispositions don't die quickly.
    I can imagine that hunter-gatherers of Europe experienced similar faith (except government help), were quickly overpopulated by farmers and pushed North where it was too cold for first farmers to settle.
    It took h-gs about 4k years to finally become farmers, which made possible for R1 and I to compete with EEF.

    E carriers (E-V13) could came to the Balkans only in Neolithic. In the Balkans found skeletons with Negroid features, it is assumption that they were E carriers but research of haplogroup has not be done.

    It is possible that G carriers once were numerous in some extent. We don't know who between G and E carriers came first to the Balkans, but probably their paths were different.

    Scientists sometimes link E and J carriers, probably due to agriculture and paths of movement. E haplogroup is from North Africa, J haplogroup is from the Middle East. It is possible that their paths were Crossword.

    But I think that E carriers arrived earlier to the Balkans compared with J carriers. When did E and J arrive? We don't know.

    In Serbia there are several well-preserved sites of the ancient cultures, most known are Lepen Whirl and Vinca.

    Candidates for Lepen Whirl are I and R1a carriers first of all. Maybe we can consider E-V13 but Lepen Whirl was hunter gatherer culture (and gradual transition toward agriculture). Lepen Whirl culture begun 7,000 year BC and E-V13 carriers were not in that time. Lepen Whirl had peak between 5,300 BC and 4,800 BC.
    I have a feeling that you don't like the idea that there was not many I2a and R1a among first farmers in Balkans. That Balkans were almost exclusively populated with variety of EEF haplogroups of J, G, E and T. That all I2a came later from North when they learned how to farm.
    It is remotely possible that I2a was involved in farming enough to become dominant haplogroups of Vinca or Cucuteni cultures. I would be extremely surprised if it turned true. Though we might find handful of I2a DNA in Neolithic Balkans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by albanopolis View Post
    The Thrachian language was thracian!! The only related language to it was Illyrian!
    looks to me like thracian was originally with baltic, then slavic entered , then illyrian

    I would not be surprised it it had some ancient west-baltic ( prussian ) and east-baltic lithuanian in it.....................some lithuanian person a year or two ago noted the same thing as Garrick

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I have a feeling that you don't like the idea that there was not my I2a and R1a among first farmers in Balkans. That Balkans were almost exclusively populated with variety of EEF haplogroups of J, G, E and T. It is remotely possible that I2a was involved in farming enough to become dominant haplogroups of Vinca or Cucuteni cultures. I would be extremely surprised if it turned true. Though we might find handful of I2a DNA in Neolithic Balkans.
    No, I only love researching and science. You can read my opinion for haplogroup carriers candidates for Lepen Whirl; they are I and R1a carriers first of all. And for Vincian culture I didn't explicitly state because different variants are possible.

    In some interval it is possible that G, E, J were more influential in the Balkans, although probably they didn't have same paths and times of arrival, especially G carriers. Even I would not connect E and J carriers (researchers often do so) because E carriers probably came earlier and J carriers were more related to coastal areas. But from 3,000 year BC I (I2a) and R1a carriers again begin to take precedence in the Balkans.

    Thracian tribal countries, first millennium BC (with borders today's countries)


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    Quote Originally Posted by albanopolis View Post
    The Thrachian language was thracian!! The only related language to it was Illyrian!
    It is mistake. Tracian is Satem as Balto Slavic. Illyrian is Centum.

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    The origins of the Thracians remain obscure, in the absence of written historical records. Evidence of proto-Thracians in the prehistoric period depends on artifacts of material culture. Several Thracian graves or tombstones have the name Rufus inscribed on them, meaning "redhead" – a common name given to people with red hair.[38] Ancient Greek artwork often depicts Thracians as redheads.[39] Rhesus of Thrace, a mythological Thracian King, derived his name because of his red hair and is depicted on Greek pottery as having red hair and beard.[39] Ancient Greek writers also described the Thracians as red haired. A fragment by the Greek poet Xenophanes describes the Thracians as blue-eyed and red haired. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    The origins of the Thracians remain obscure, in the absence of written historical records. Evidence of proto-Thracians in the prehistoric period depends on artifacts of material culture. Several Thracian graves or tombstones have the name Rufus inscribed on them, meaning "redhead" – a common name given to people with red hair.[38] Ancient Greek artwork often depicts Thracians as redheads.[39] Rhesus of Thrace, a mythological Thracian King, derived his name because of his red hair and is depicted on Greek pottery as having red hair and beard.[39] Ancient Greek writers also described the Thracians as red haired. A fragment by the Greek poet Xenophanes describes the Thracians as blue-eyed and red haired. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians
    Well are 3 red-hair genes and is possible for someone to have all 3 but to not have red hair,or beard.
    On the other hand is possible that someone have only 1 red hair gene and have red hair.
    For Montenegrins,about 40% or so,from the males,are having pure red beards.
    Also,most common color in Montenegrin women at hair is auburn,which can not be,without red hair.
    Between Romanian males,most have red nuance in their beard.
    I understood is same about Bulgarians and people from Macedonia/FYROM.
    So maybe people from Romania and Balkans do not have so much red hair anymore,because of how weather changed and is a lot more sunshine,that in the past.But I am pretty sure they still have at least 1 of the red hair genes,if they would make genetic testing.
    You should also take into account that Balkans,Romania were mostly covered with forests so that means that the people from here were very few exposed at sun,compared to how it is now.
    I was having dark brown hair and when I stopped staying in the sun so much,my hair got medium brown,with reddish nuance.
    I also have some threads of red beard,between dark brown/black threads,which are most common,in my beard.

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    Little is known for certain about the Thracian language, since no phrase beyond a few words in length has been satisfactorily deciphered, and the sounder decipherments given for the shorter phrases may not be completely accurate. Some of the longer inscriptions may indeed be Thracian in origin but they may not reflect actual Thracian language sentences, but rather jumbles of names or magical formulas.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language

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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    Little is known for certain about the Thracian language, since no phrase beyond a few words in length has been satisfactorily deciphered, and the sounder decipherments given for the shorter phrases may not be completely accurate. Some of the longer inscriptions may indeed be Thracian in origin but they may not reflect actual Thracian language sentences, but rather jumbles of names or magical formulas.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language
    There is quite advocates in scientific community that Thracian was Balto Slavic or Baltic. For example:

    Bulgarian linguist Ivan Duridanov said that the comparative studies with the Baltic languages were very helpful in the case of some unclear personal and geographical Thracian names and provided new insights into the Thracian vocabulary. It turned out that the Thracian language is in close genetic links with the Baltic languages.

    Harvey A. Mayer, American linguist claimed that that the ancient Thracians and Dacians were Balts. He wrote several books about this theory.

    What is interesting is that Thracian names and surnames, as toponymies are very similar to the Balto Slavic, especially Lithuanian, from today's languages,

    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Take the Serbians have as folk tradition they are "wolf people" and they are descending from a wolf and Dacians were also calling themselves "wolf people" and they were saying that are descending from a wolf.
    They also have the "vucari" tradition,some tradition linked to wolves.
    Notice that Eastern Slavs do not have tradition with wolves.
    This is very good observation, among Serbs is strong cult of wolf. I would like that Baltic Tribe or anyone else from Lithuania/Latvia explain if cult of wolf exists in Baltic.
    Last edited by Garrick; 01-01-14 at 16:41.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Well are 3 red-hair genes and is possible for someone to have all 3 but to not have red hair,or beard.
    On the other hand is possible that someone have only 1 red hair gene and have red hair.
    For Montenegrins,about 40% or so,from the males,are having pure red beards.
    Also,most common color in Montenegrin women at hair is auburn,which can not be,without red hair.
    Between Romanian males,most have red nuance in their beard.
    I understood is same about Bulgarians and people from Macedonia/FYROM.
    So maybe people from Romania and Balkans do not have so much red hair anymore,because of how weather changed and is a lot more sunshine,that in the past.But I am pretty sure they still have at least 1 of the red hair genes,if they would make genetic testing.
    You should also take into account that Balkans,Romania were mostly covered with forests so that means that the people from here were very few exposed at sun,compared to how it is now.
    I was having dark brown hair and when I stopped staying in the sun so much,my hair got medium brown,with reddish nuance.
    I also have some threads of red beard,between dark brown/black threads,which are most common,in my beard.
    concerning red hair genes, it is very seldom that a man carrying three mutated genes would not have red or reddish or at least very auburn hairs... I have an australian survey at home about that - if new things, would you give us the link of the survey attesting what you write here? I'm interested - thanks

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