Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 26 to 39 of 39

Thread: Who destroyed the Uruk culture circa 3100 BCE ?

  1. #26
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered50000 Experience Points
    Aberdeen's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-11-13
    Posts
    1,838
    Points
    52,092
    Level
    70
    Points: 52,092, Level: 70
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 458
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H4

    Ethnic group
    Scottish, English and German
    Country: Canada-Ontario





    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Seems to me like Omani Arabs and shirazi Persians first followed by Saudi Arabians (Arabian peninsulars) later.
    No. Oman is part of the Arabian Peninsula. And Arab trading networks along the eastern coast of Africa are quite ancient. And none of these people destroyed the Uruk culture.

  2. #27
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,117
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    No. Oman is part of the Arabian Peninsula. And Arab trading networks along the eastern coast of Africa are quite ancient. And none of these people destroyed the Uruk culture.
    so what was the haplogroups of the Uruk
    T, L, J1 ............?
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  3. #28
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered50000 Experience Points
    Aberdeen's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-11-13
    Posts
    1,838
    Points
    52,092
    Level
    70
    Points: 52,092, Level: 70
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 458
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H4

    Ethnic group
    Scottish, English and German
    Country: Canada-Ontario



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    so what was the haplogroups of the Uruk
    T, L, J1 ............?
    Nobody knows, IMO. But advances in DNA analysis may soon allow us to find out that information, whether other haplotypes replaces the Uruk haplotypes in the Uruk territory after the culture declined and where those other haplotypes came from. Then Maciamo may get an answer to his question. Until then, we're all just guessing, IMO.

  4. #29
    Marquis Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    10-04-13
    Posts
    2,120
    Points
    4,787
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,787, Level: 20
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 263
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Italy



    Omanis and emirians still have 10% T nationally today.

    "No. Oman is part of the Arabian Peninsula. And Arab trading networks along the eastern coast of Africa are quite ancient. And none of these people destroyed the Uruk culture."

    Wrong Aberdeen, on a national level, Oman is one of the countries in which T is most frequent, about half the frequencies found in Jordan (20%). United Arab emirates has 10% T as well, so it's deffinetly present near the Persian gulf.

  5. #30
    Marquis Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    10-04-13
    Posts
    2,120
    Points
    4,787
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,787, Level: 20
    Level completed: 35%, Points required for next Level: 263
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a1a3 (T-PF7443)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Italy



    The massive Sile; what are your views on this?

  6. #31
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,937
    Points
    748,954
    Level
    100
    Points: 748,954, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 45.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    I have moved the discussion about haplogroup T's relation to the Kurds, Azeri, Persians and Omani to a new thread.
    My book selection---Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  7. #32
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran50000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,675
    Points
    55,153
    Level
    72
    Points: 55,153, Level: 72
    Level completed: 74%, Points required for next Level: 397
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    Around 3100 BCE, all Sumerian colonies were suddenly destroyed, and contact ceased for several centuries between Sumer and surrounding regions. What happened ?

    The events happen to coincide with the expansion of the Maykop culture (3700-2500 BCE) from the Northwest Caucasus to the Northeast and Central Caucasus, and the consequent displacement and expansion of the Kura-Araxes culture (3400-2600 BCE) from the Caucasus (Daghestan, Georgia, Armenia) toward eastern Anatolia, northern Syria, northern Mesopotamia and north-western Iran. Both Maykop and Kura-Araxes were Bronze Age cultures - the world's two oldest. Both produced an amazing number of metal objects (esp. Kura-Araxes) and metal weapons (esp. Maykop), although the two cultures were radically different in many other respects (burial style, settlement types, stratification of society, artistic style, etc.).
    It was tought that the first origins of bronze was in Mesopotamia, and that Maykop was influenced by the Uruk civilization.

    A new discovery sheds a whole new light :

    http://dienekes.blogspot.be/2014/01/...om-serbia.html

    I would think the Balkan smiths went to Maykop after the Vinca collapse. Uruk got bronze metallurgy from Maykop and not the other way around.

  8. #33
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran50000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,675
    Points
    55,153
    Level
    72
    Points: 55,153, Level: 72
    Level completed: 74%, Points required for next Level: 397
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    Overall, it seems that both J1 and J2 spread from mountainous regions of Anatolia, the Caucasus and western Iran (Zagros). I believe that J1 and J2 people were originally mountain herders who lived too high in the mountains to practice cereal farming. The original homeland of J1 and J2 might correspond to the region where goats, sheep, cattle and pigs were first domesticated (although R1b surely played a role in the domestication of cattle too, either jointly or independently).

    Chiaroni et al. 2010 explain that in more detail. They estimate that J1-P58 started expanding from 7000 BCE, first colonising the Levant, Iraq, Ethiopia, Yemen and Oman. The colonisation of Arabia itself (Saudi Arabia, UAE, Bahrein), northern Syria, Anatolia and Sudan took place during the Bronze Age, between 5000 and 3000 BCE. In light of this, if the timing is correct, it is very possible that J1-P58 was already present in both Sumer and Elam in the 5th and 4th millennium BCE.
    I think this is true for J1 who's origin is the Zarzian culture, Zagros mountains.

    I think J2 was involved with the origins of farming, after Natufian culture. J2a originating in the Levant, J2b in the upper Euphrates.

  9. #34
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran50000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,675
    Points
    55,153
    Level
    72
    Points: 55,153, Level: 72
    Level completed: 74%, Points required for next Level: 397
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    It was reported as early as the reign of Shar-Kali-Sharri of Akkad (c. 2100 BCE) that the Gutians, semi-nomadic tribes from the central Zagros mountains, had invaded Mesopotamia, settled in Akkad and Sumer and even came to rule several city-states there. Mountain pastoralists have invaded the plains of the Fertile Crescent during most of ancient history. I believe that many mountain tribes in the Near East were J1 and J2, although in the case of the Gutians they might have been R1b people, as the Gutians were described as fair-skinned and light haired. Rather than an early Indo-European invasion, these Gutians might have been remnants of the R1b (P25, P297, M269 or M73) that did not migrate to the Pontic Steppe.
    Gutians were probably not Indo-European, so indeed M73 or maybe V88.

  10. #35
    Tabaccus Maximus Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Tabaccus Maximus's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-12
    Posts
    169
    Points
    10,333
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,333, Level: 30
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 217
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - SRY 2627
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1a

    Ethnic group
    Galo-Germanic Atlantic Fringe
    Country: USA - Texas



    After giving this some thought...

    let me propose that the Mespotamian Uruk civilization was destroyed by the invading Sumerians around 3100B.C. (ironically)

    The Sumerians might represent a migration from the periphery of the Uruk influenced economy of the North Caucasus, specifically in the area in or just north of the Maikop cultural area. Having been influenced by, and in communication with North Mespotamian people, a combination of the volitility of the Yamnaya to the north of the Caucasus and the weakness of the core Uruk homeland was cause for the trans-caucasus inmigration into Mespotamia.

    In this scenario, the Uruk and the earlier Halafian/Samarran/Ubaidian cultures could be described as Proto-Indo-European or Proto-Euphratean who were conquered by North Caucasian, non-IE Sumerians.

    At some point, Sumerian culture imported as its chiefest gods four of the oldest of the PIE pantheon, as well as some cultural and liguistic attributes. This areal influence could have happened in the North Caucasus, Mespotamia, or both.\

    **edit** It's worth noting that the Maikop disappears from history at this time. At this time Yamnaya expands in all directions which most likely caused a domino effect on neighboring cultures. So for several reasons seeing a population migrating out of the trans-Caucasus heading south makes sense. Linguistically and cranometrically.

  11. #36
    Tabaccus Maximus Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Tabaccus Maximus's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-12
    Posts
    169
    Points
    10,333
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,333, Level: 30
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 217
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - SRY 2627
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1a

    Ethnic group
    Galo-Germanic Atlantic Fringe
    Country: USA - Texas



    To give somewhat crude example of "reaping the whirlwind"...

    The British Celts had a cultural influence on the Northern Germanics. They were very active sending missionaries to the northern Jutland and hiring Anglo and Saxon mercenaries to defend Britian following the collapse of the Roman empire.
    The Anglos, Jutes, Saxons and Danes were so thankful they decided on a wholesale invasion of the British isles that lasted several centuries.

    Uruk had a similar influence on its neighbors, especially the Caucasus, where it had a marked influence on the natives. When the epicenter of Uruk was weakened, the native Caucasian cultures seized its cities and farmlands.

  12. #37
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,937
    Points
    748,954
    Level
    100
    Points: 748,954, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 45.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Tabaccus Maximus View Post
    After giving this some thought...

    let me propose that the Mespotamian Uruk civilization was destroyed by the invading Sumerians around 3100B.C. (ironically)

    The Sumerians might represent a migration from the periphery of the Uruk influenced economy of the North Caucasus, specifically in the area in or just north of the Maikop cultural area. Having been influenced by, and in communication with North Mespotamian people, a combination of the volitility of the Yamnaya to the north of the Caucasus and the weakness of the core Uruk homeland was cause for the trans-caucasus inmigration into Mespotamia.

    In this scenario, the Uruk and the earlier Halafian/Samarran/Ubaidian cultures could be described as Proto-Indo-European or Proto-Euphratean who were conquered by North Caucasian, non-IE Sumerians.

    At some point, Sumerian culture imported as its chiefest gods four of the oldest of the PIE pantheon, as well as some cultural and liguistic attributes. This areal influence could have happened in the North Caucasus, Mespotamia, or both.\

    **edit** It's worth noting that the Maikop disappears from history at this time. At this time Yamnaya expands in all directions which most likely caused a domino effect on neighboring cultures. So for several reasons seeing a population migrating out of the trans-Caucasus heading south makes sense. Linguistically and cranometrically.
    Just one problem with this theory. The Sumerians were the same people as those of the Uruk culture... Uruk was a Sumerian city, where Sumerian language was spoken, and Sumerian religion practised.

  13. #38
    Tabaccus Maximus Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Tabaccus Maximus's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-12
    Posts
    169
    Points
    10,333
    Level
    30
    Points: 10,333, Level: 30
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 217
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - SRY 2627
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1a

    Ethnic group
    Galo-Germanic Atlantic Fringe
    Country: USA - Texas



    I'm not sure that you can positively equate Uruk culture with Sumerian.

    Wedon't know what language was spoken in Uruk prior to 3100 only that proto-literate/logographic writing in the Jemdet Nasr period "might be" Sumerian. The further development of writing in the dynastic period could possibily even be interpreted as the re-tooling of the original script to a new language (Sumerian).

    The Sumerians themselves reference their first semi-mythical king, Gilgamesh, to around 2700 b.c., more or less. I think the appearance of Sumerian-like, short-headed people during this period has been refered to as the "Sumerian problem".

    Uruk and Eridu might have been cities overtaken by Sumerians, but I don't think there is straight-line continuity from Ubaid to Sumer.

  14. #39
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,117
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    If we go by the script then its Cuneiform scripts, belongs to Akkadia, then Sumer, then Elamits, Babylonians, Assyrians, Hurrians and later Hittites.
    All of the great Mesopotamian civilizations used cuneiform

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •