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Thread: Retracing the mtDNA haplogroups of the original R1b people

  1. #26
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    I have summarised the presumed historical development of mtDNA haplogroups found in R1b populations here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    But the only R1b-M269 in North Africa is Roman R1b-U152 and R1b-P312. There is only a tiny amount of M269* and only in Algeria and Tunisia, not in Morocco, Libya nor Egypt. That M269 probably from Italy (Romanised Greeks).
    After looking a little deeper that may be true. I thought the Guanches of the Canaries might have had a significant amount of M269, however this may have been Roman influence as well.

  3. #28
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    I am interested in the origin and spread of haplogroup h1 as I belong to h1c3. There is a lot of confusing data out there concerning the origin, spread, and growth of haplogroup H. To me the best explanation is that it was spread in to Europe by Indo European R1b from the Near East and this is how it was spread to North Africa as well. Typically both are found at elevated levels wherever the other is present with some exceptions. I look at the Irish and Basques as the best examples of a preserved R1b/H migration, it is in these populations we see the greatest occurence of the signature characteristic trait of r1b, red hair. I think the reason these populations have greater instances of red hair is because these regions were the most isolated and sparsely populated during the r1b migration and there was less interbreeding with locals. This is also supported by their respective homogenous mixtures. In the Basques we see this along with a minority of Indigenous I2a1/U5 from the nearby refugium.

    I am of course not saying that mtDNA haplogroup H was the only companion haplogroup to the r1b migration, just the predominant one. Their dominance in Western Europe go hand in hand. As to the origin, they were probably not always linked but mixed in Anatolia and the surrounding regions. There are of course outliers that contradict this theory but I feel that the vast majority of the sampling done supports it.

  4. #29
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    I am interested in the origin and spread of haplogroup h1 as I belong to h1c3. There is a lot of confusing data out there concerning the origin, spread, and growth of haplogroup H. To me the best explanation is that it was spread in to Europe by Indo European R1b from the Near East and this is how it was spread to North Africa as well. Typically both are found at elevated levels wherever the other is present with some exceptions. I look at the Irish and Basques as the best examples of a preserved R1b/H migration, it is in these populations we see the greatest occurence of the signature characteristic trait of r1b, red hair. I think the reason these populations have greater instances of red hair is because these regions were the most isolated and sparsely populated during the r1b migration and there was less interbreeding with locals. This is also supported by their respective homogenous mixtures. In the Basques we see this along with a minority of Indigenous I2a1/U5 from the nearby refugium.

    I am of course not saying that mtDNA haplogroup H was the only companion haplogroup to the r1b migration, just the predominant one. Their dominance in Western Europe go hand in hand. As to the origin, they were probably not always linked but mixed in Anatolia and the surrounding regions. There are of course outliers that contradict this theory but I feel that the vast majority of the sampling done supports it.
    Welcome to Eupedia motzart.

    I might not remember dates too well, but I'm pretty sure that mt Hg H is attested in Europe at 12,000 years ago. Most likely came with first farmers from Middle East. However R1b is only attested since 6,000 years ago. Nothing so far showed up sooner than that. In this case H came to Europe much sooner than R1b people.
    Obviously we can find some subgroups of H connected to R1b. There is a thread by Maciamo on Eupedia connecting mtDNA to IEs.

    Also autosomal admixtures (of EEF, WHG and ANE kind) tell us a story that R1b IEs didn't replace majority of original population, perhaps up to 30% in some areas. Their R1b Y chromosome was more successful for some reason replacing up to 80% of existing local Y DNA.

    It is possible that R1b tribes brought red hair colour to Europe, but it seams it only thrived in NW Europe. Most likely it is connected to a very pale skin mutations, and it happened that this pale skin likes this part of the world the best, due to specific climate. By genetic connection red hair colour is very popular there too. Pale skin or red hair gene is not located on Y DNA and in such case can drift/transfer to next generation regardless if kids are R1b or not.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

  5. #30
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Welcome to Eupedia motzart.

    I might not remember dates too well, but I'm pretty sure that mt Hg H is attested in Europe at 12,000 years ago. Most likely came with first farmers from Middle East. However R1b is only attested since 6,000 years ago. Nothing so far showed up sooner than that. In this case H came to Europe much sooner than R1b people.
    Obviously we can find some subgroups of H connected to R1b. There is a thread by Maciamo on Eupedia connecting mtDNA to IEs.

    Also autosomal admixtures (of EEF, WHG and ANE kind) tell us a story that R1b IEs didn't replace majority of original population, perhaps up to 30% in some areas. Their R1b Y chromosome was more successful for some reason replacing up to 80% of existing local Y DNA.

    It is possible that R1b tribes brought red hair colour to Europe, but it seams it only thrived in NW Europe. Most likely it is connected to a very pale skin mutations, and it happened that this pale skin likes this part of the world the best, due to specific climate. By genetic connection red hair colour is very popular there too. Pale skin or red hair gene is not located on Y DNA and in such case can drift/transfer to next generation regardless if kids are R1b or not.
    Red hair thrives in the Udmurt people of Russia close to the origin point of R1b, it states this in Maciamo's own page on red hair as well as that it is linked to the spread of R1b.

    As far as the autosomal admixtures they are incomplete and a very rough estimation at best.

    The oldest examples I can find of mtDNA H I can find are

    Russia
    Uznyi Oleni Ostrov [UZOO 77] 7500 BP
    H
    16311C, 16362C Der Sarkissian 2011; Der Sarkissian 2013

    Pre-pottery Neolithic B Syria
    Tell Halula [H 53] 6800-6000 BC
    H5
    16304C Fernández 2008


    Halaf Turkey
    Tell Kurdu, Amuq C phase [12:14 and 12:18] M 6000-5800 BC
    H3a? 2 samples 16104T, 16187T, 16216G, 16239G, 16319C Özbal 2010 citing 2004(


    I have read many posts on this site discussing the validity of the first results for mtDNA H in Europe, the oldest I can find is:

    Cardial Spain Can Sadurnı [CSA 16] 5475–5305 BC
    H 16362C, 7028C Gamba 2012

    However this result does not show that H originated in Europe or more specifically Iberia as the claims go, because we know that Neolithic Farmers (G2a) and possibly E1b had already arrived at this time from the Near East possibly bringing earlier subclades of H with them.


    The oldest result of H1 that I am interested in is:

    LBK Germany Derenburg Meerenstieg II [DEB 21] F 5207-5159 BC
    H1j G3010A, T4733C, reported as H by Haak. Full mDNA in Brotherton Haak 2010; Brotherton 2013; Brandt 2013



    I am currently reading a study on the topic of the spread of Hg mtDNA in Europe, this is what the study suggests:

    "Overall, our results suggest that the broad foundations of the

    Central European mtDNA pool, here approximated via hg H,

    were formed during the Neolithic rather than the post-glacial

    period. ENE(early neolithic) hg H mt lineages brought in from the Near East by

    Central Europe’s first farmers do not appear to have contributed

    significantly to present-day Central Europe’s hg H diversity,

    instead being largely superseded during the MNE(middle neolithic) and LNE(late neolithic) (with

    the process starting around 4000 BC), after which there appears

    to have been substantial genetic continuity to the present-day in

    Central Europe. These developments have been revealed by

    comparative full mt genome sequencing and would have

    remained obscure using standard HVS I data.

    In conclusion, demographic changes across the MNE, followed

    by the widespread Bell Beaker cultural phenomenon, are likely to

    have been the key factors in the expansion of hg H across

    Western Europe and the eventual rise of hg H to become the

    predominant mtDNA hg. However, LNE Corded Ware and Early

    Bronze Age data suggest a complex series of additional genetic

    contributions, which require further investigation."



    link docs dot google dot com /file/d/0B-5-JeCa2Z7hU1hlV0xXb2RsODA/edit

  6. #31
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    13,2% is a big percentage IMO. It still reflects on their phenotype, which appears clearly mixed. though a plenty of generations have passed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    Some historical sources on the Fulani describe them as having evolved from a mixture of Berbers and Subsaharan Africans in the last 1000 years or so, and their expansions during that time do seem to be from west to east. And according to various internet sources, some Fulani seem to regard themselves as part Berber descent. However, some Fulani apparently consider themseives to be of Semetic origin. But if it wasn't for the genetic information, I'd be inclined to think that the reason they're taller and somewhat paler than their neighbours was simply because they've traditionally been nomads living primarily on dairy products.
    Is there a correlation between dairy and pale skin? I have seen some research that suggests lack of vitamin D, in the diet, may have contributed to the paling of skin (after the introduction of wheat, barley, and rye into the diet), but never anything dealing with dairy... Maybe you just meant the dairy made them taller? I'm not denying the paling affect due to geography (or genetics) in Western Europe, but other groups that have existed, esp without agriculture, at far Northern latitudes do tend to have darker skin than European counterparts, maybe the reason is multifaceted.... Here's one source:

    http://archaeonova.blogspot.com/2013...e-skin-in.html

  8. #33
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    I may have actually gotten the following from a post here somewhere, but this is an interesting read... mostly a less thorough version of Maciamo, but a good summary (w/out haplogroup labels) and discussion of skin color and correlation to diet...

    http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-29213892

    edit: similar, but short and interesting:
    http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-25885519

    ok.. no more off topic banter.

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