Was T brought to Madagascar via Omani and Persian slave traders ?

[adamo]

T was brought to Madagascar via Omani and Persian slave traders that made contact with the region. Not from admixture/arrival of Africans from the Horn of Africa, as this is barely documented if at all. These regions probably have a different time of introduction of T, with T reaching Madagascar significantly late from Persian slave traders of Hormuz. T in the Horn of Africa also has an Arabian peninsular origin, according to their founding father member of Quraish tribe of Mecca. Thhough it probably arrived much earlier in the Horn of Africa than Madagascar, but still significantly late in the game here too.

"They came via Tanzania and Horn of Africa", just one example of Iranian/Arab slave trade ports across Horn of Africa and Madagascar, Tanzanian port of Kilwa kissin.

" Kilwa, in full Kilwa Kisiwani, former Islāmic city-state on an island off the coast of what is now southern Tanzania. Founded in the late 10th century by settlers from Arabia and Iran, it became one of the most active commercial centres on the east coast of Africa"

the antemoro of Madagascar and their derivatives worshipped Islam and wrote in Arabic, because they were derived from the fore mentioned groups.

Again, just like Madagascar, we hear of these 10 th century Arabs founding minor port colonies to continue slave trade. The Isaak and ALL tribes of Horn of Africa (Somalia/Ethiopia etc.) high in T ALSO have legends of being originally from the Arabian peninsula, in this instance as member of mecca's Quraysh tribe.

Ancient cities/ports discovered by the Portuguese in the 16th century were identical, both on the coasts of Madagascar and the Horn of Africa (as far south as coastal kenya/Tanzania). Haplogroup T in Africa IS known to be younger than in the Middle East. I believe there is a relatively ancient Arab/Persian slave trade link that connects Madagascar and the Horn of Africa with the Persian gulf region of the Middle East. The primary port that these Iranian AND Omani slave traders would have used was Hormuz, just to give you an idea of the general region I am referencing.

Ibadi was the sect of Islam worshipped at kilwa (Tanzania); "The Ibāḍī movement, Ibadism or Ibāḍiyya (Arabic: الاباضية‎ al-Ibāḍiyyah) is a form of Islam distinct from Sunni and Shia. It is the dominant sect in Oman and Zanzibar; Ibāḍīs are also found in Algeria, Tunisia, Libya and East Africa. The Tartib al-Musnad and Jami Sahih are the main hadith collections for Ibadis."

origins ;" The school derives its name from ʿAbdu l-Lāh ibn Ibāḍ of the Banu Tamim (Saudi Arabia). However, the true founder was Jābir ibn Zayd of Nizwa, Oman."

Today, 75% of omanian men adhere to Ibadi Islam.

As for Abd-Allah ibn ibadh, the man from whom this sect's name descends: Abdullah ibn Ibadh belongs to the tribe of Bani Murra who are descendants of Murra ibn Ubayd ibn Tamim, and thus he belongs to the tribe of Bani Tamim, one of the largest in the Arabian peninsula.

the bani tamim; Today, descendants from the tribe live in the Arabian Peninsula and neighboring countries such as, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Tunisia, Egypt, Qatar, Oman, Bahrain, United Arab Emirates, Lebanon & the Palestinian Territories. Banu Tamim often hold genealogy in high regard, carefully recording birth and family data (especially in the Arabian Peninsula).

Research kilwa kisiwani on Wikipedia, they practiced a sect of Islam from OMAN, before changing to an Iraqi sect and then later back to Ibadism:

"By the 12th century, under the rule of the Abu'-Mawahib dynasty, Kilwa had become the most powerful city on the East African coast. At the zenith of its power in the 15th century, the Kilwa Sultanate claimed authority over the city-states of Malindi, Mvita (Mombasa), Pemba Island, Zanzibar, Mafia Island, Grande Comore|Comoro, Sofala, and the trading posts across the channel on Madagascar."

"According to local oral tradition, in the 11th century the island of Kilwa Kisiwani was sold to Ali bin Hasan, son of the "King" of Shiraz, in Persia." Need more evidence? Omani Arabs and shirazi Persians.

The kilwa sultanate; "The Kilwa Sultanate was a Medieval sultanate, centered at Kilwa (an island off modern-day Tanzania), whose authority, at its height, stretched over the entire length of the Swahili Coast. It was founded in the 10th century by Ali ibn al-Hassan Shirazi,^[1] a Persian prince of Shiraz.^[2] His family ruled the Sultanate until the year 1277. It was replaced by the Arab family of Abu Moaheb until 1505, when it was overthrown by a Portuguese invasion. By 1513, the sultanate was already fragmented into smaller states, many of which became protectorates of the Sultanate of Oman."

and

The story of Kilwa begins around 960-1000 AD.[3] Ali ibn al-Hassan Shirazi was one of seven sons of a ruler of Shiraz, Persia, his mother an Abyssinian slave. Upon his father's death, Ali was driven out of his inheritance by his brothers.[4] Setting sail out of Hormuz, Ali ibn al-Hassan, his household and a small group of followers first made their way to Mogadishu, the main commercial city of the East African coast. However, Ali failed to get along with the city's Somali elite and he was soon driven out of that city as well.


Kilwa's fortuitous position made it a much better East African trade center than Mogadishu. It quickly began to attract many merchants and immigrants from further north, including Persia and Arabia. In just a few years, the colony was big enough to establish a satellite settlement at nearby Mafia Island.

Also



At the zenith of its power in the 15th century, the Kilwa Sultanate owned or claimed overlordship over the mainland cities of Malindi, Inhambane and Sofala and the island-states of Mombassa, Pemba, Zanzibar, Mafia, Comoro and Mozambique (plus numerous smaller places) - essentially what is now often referred to as the "Swahili Coast".

Noticed how I managed to pin point it a week ago, to the city. Shiraz! : ) Iran and Oman and parts of Saudi Arabia as well! Prince shirazi set sail; out of the port of Hormuz as stated above. High T in Horn of Africa and Madagascar, curiously in synch with Persian slave trade settlements across portions of coastal east Africa.

[adamo]

Sile WAS correct all along; T might as well be called an Iranian genetic marker. Look at the position of Shiraz within Iran and then look at wikipedia's T map. It's well within the "high" area. Also Hormuz must be included in this as well and all of Oman and United Arab Emirates have 10% T, Persian gulf genetic marker in my opinion.

[adamo]

The "Arab Shirazi era" refers to a period in the history of East Africa (and especially Tanzania), between the 13th century and 15th century, when Persian city-states were founded on the eastern coast of Africa as well as on its islands. These Persian settlers were mostly from the Shiraz region, and the present day Shirazi people (Swahili speakers) claim to descend from these settlers, though this tradition is disputed.

Arabs and Persians began trading with East Africa, and building trading settlements on the coast and islands, in the 11th century. Cultural exchanges between these civilizations and the local bantus gave birth to what would develop into the Swahili culture. In the following centuries, commerce from East Africa to the Middle East flourished, and traders coming from Africa with gold and ivory eventually reached as far as India and China. Trading settlements in East Africa grew richer, and between the 13th and 15th century they evolved into city-states, usually governed by sultans. At least 30 such city-states are accounted for. One of the most powerful of them was the Kilwa Sultanate; in his writing, the famous Berber traveller Ibn Battuta mentions Kilwa Kisiwani as one of the richest and most beautiful cities in the world.
The Arab Shirazi Era came to an abrupt end with the advent of the Portuguese at the end of the 15th century. The Portuguese first raided and then conquered the Shirazi/Swahili cities, with the aim of controlling the trading routes in the Indian Ocean. In fact, they did not achieve their aim, as the fall of the Shirazi city-states actually caused trading between Africa and Asia to collapse and eventually extinguish.

[adamo]

Think of that. Persian gulf...shiraz Persians, port of Hormuz, Omani Arabs.....haplogroup T. I quote wikipedia. "These Persians were mostly from the Shiraz region".......haplogroup T map......K originated in central Iran.......T previously called K2 before L was discovered.......Zanzibar is a Persian name......Ibadism of Oman.......

[adamo]

History of Mogadishu (Somalian coast) where prince shirazi first landed: " Starting in the late 9th or 10th centuries, Arab and Persian traders also began to settle in the region." He actually colonized the entire Swahili coast. Madagascar quite clearly was also affected.

[adamo]

Kilwa also claimed lordship across the channel over the myriad of small trading posts scattered on the coast of Madagascar (then known by its Arabic name of Island of the Moon). To the north, Kilwa's power was checked by the independent Somali city-states of Barawa (a self-ruling aristocratic republic) and Mogadishu. To the south, Kilwa's reach extended as far as Cape Correntes, below which merchant ships did not usually dare sail.

[adamo]

In terms of colonies, the most northern one on the East African coast was Mogadishu and the most southern was cape correntes, if we exclude the island of the moon (Arabic name for Madagascar.) Comoros islands were also colonized.

Despite its origin as a Persian colony, extensive inter-marriage and conversion of local Bantu inhabitants and later Arab immigration turned the Kilwa Sultanate into a veritable melting pot, ethnically indifferentiable from the mainland. The mixture of Perso-Arab and Bantu cultures is credited for creating a distinctive East African culture and language known today as Swahili (literally, 'coast-dwellers').[5] Nonetheless, the Muslims of Kilwa (whatever their ethnicity) would often refer to themselves generally as "Shirazi" or Arabs, and to the unconverted Bantu peoples of the mainland as Zanj or Khaffirs ('infidels').

[adamo]

Also, I have been re-classed in a newly discovered branch; the most downstream one of T1a; T1a1a3. Information on this subclade at this early stage is beyond scarce.

[Sile]

Also, I have been re-classed in a newly discovered branch; the most downstream one of T1a; T1a1a3. Information on this subclade at this early stage is beyond scarce.

T1a1a2 P321
• • • • • • T1a1a2* -
• • • • • • T1a1a2a P317
• • • • • T1a1a3 PF7443, PF7444, PF7445, PF7453, PF7457, PF7458

[Sile]

As I said before, T haplogroup where the "phoenicians" of the indian ocean...............they where seafarers

[adamo]

Shirazi Persians and Omani Arabs to be more precise lolll ; ), we got it down pack now, literally to the port (Hormuz).

[Sile]

he new tree splits like this
IJKLT split ino

IJ and KLT split into

IJ and LT and K

LT split into

L and T

So, LT did not originate from K but split from K

[adamo]

So L and T split off more recently than T did from K; you'd think I would have deduced that lolll : ). And it was LT that split from K together.

[adamo]

We connect the dots perfectly when we realize that Ibadi Islam is most frequent in zanzibar (off the coast of north Tanzania/ southern Kenya) and 75% of all Omani men, with a founding origin of the sect in the city of Nizwa. When we include the hometown of Ali-ibn Al-Hassan-Shirazi (Shiraz, Iran) and the ancient slave port he set sail from (Hormuz) a Persian gulf link with T becomes all too evident, as the Wikipedia map of haplogroup T indicates. Kerman, a city at the same level as Hormuz but further north, has 14% T. It is also not too far from Iran's border with Afghanistan.

[Sile]

So L and T split off more recently than T did from K; you'd think I would have deduced that lolll : ). And it was LT that split from K together.

There are about a dozen SNP purely under LT...............so there could be people out there with this LT ydna marker

[adamo]

T1a1a3 is as downstream as T1a goes, any information on this branch?

[adamo]

In fact it would seem Ibadism first originated in Basra, Iraq not too far from Kuwait and Iran and much of the Arabian peninsula. They were expulsed though and eventually reached Oman were still today 1-2 million people adhere to Ibadism; Oman is probably the region from which it migrated eventually to Zanzibar (Persian gulf region).

[adamo]

Although what I find peculiar and contradictory are the ftdna samples. There seems to be a web of Hasheimtes; Quraish and within them Banu Hashim from Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Iraq; many Saudis and Kuwaitis I'm surprised at the amount in the two latest aforementioned countries. with constant mentions of Arabian peninsula; Hejaz region or Najd region. If we took data according g to ftdna then there is a weight of T in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait with every now and then but still frequently Iraq, Jordan, Oman, United Arab Emirates, which really goes well with the pre-Islamic Arabian proper tribal system. "Quraish", "Adnani" and "Banu Hashim" are mentioned very frequently (west north and central Saudi Arabia.) also the two main Hashemite countries are Jordan (15-20%) and Iraq (6-13%) T.

[adamo]

Also turkey, Egypt and Armenia have enough samples as well, surprised by how many in turkey!

[adamo]

Hashemites and Quraysh have some T according to ftdna. They would have originated in the Hejaz kingdom of Saudi Arabia by the Red Sea coast, the Jordanian and Iraqi royal families are Hashemites as well.

[Makaahil]

Hey my name is Makaahil I am an ethnic Somali my Y-DNA is T1a1a, I have been searching the internet and there is not that much information out regarding the Haplogroup T when compared to other haplogroups. I also find it odd that only 10-15% of Somalis carry this haplogroup as opposed the great majority of my people who carry E3b haplogroups in their DNA.

My great grandfather went to Madagascar to mine for gold, there was a big gold rush during his time. From what I know he did get married to a local woman but left Madagascar once word reached him that most of his immediate relatives were killed during clan skirmishes so he left Madagascar right away, to this day we do not know if he left any children behind. I doubt he was the only man from the Horn of Africa to end up with a local woman from Madagascar, I wouldn't be surprised if some of those people from Madagascar who have T as their paternal haplogroup got it from people from the Horn of Africa.

[Sile]

Hey my name is Makaahil I am an ethnic Somali my Y-DNA is T1a1a, I have been searching the internet and there is not that much information out regarding the Haplogroup T when compared to other haplogroups. I also find it odd that only 10-15% of Somalis carry this haplogroup as opposed the great majority of my people who carry E3b haplogroups in their DNA.

My great grandfather went to Madagascar to mine for gold, there was a big gold rush during his time. From what I know he did get married to a local woman but left Madagascar once word reached him that most of his immediate relatives were killed during clan skirmishes so he left Madagascar right away, to this day we do not know if he left any children behind. I doubt he was the only man from the Horn of Africa to end up with a local woman from Madagascar, I wouldn't be surprised if some of those people from Madagascar who have T as their paternal haplogroup got it from people from the Horn of Africa.

hi

read capredon and mendez from the link...it will help you

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpT.html

[Makaahil]

hi

read capredon and mendez from the link...it will help you

It seems like this link has given me the answers I have been looking for but I have just as many questions after reading the abstracts/articles.

Thank You