Is haplogroup T related to the Kurds, Azeri, Persians or Omani ?

[Sile]

I believe that some of you here were misled to believe that T was high in south-western Iran because of the mistaken map of T on Wikipedia, which is based on the K in Nasidze et al. 2004. The only reliable study for hg T in Iran is the more recent Grugni et al. 2012, which found mostly haplogroup L in southern Iran, and no T at all in Khuzestan and Isfahan.

Considering that there is hardly any T in the region of Elam today, and that the most common haplogroups are J2a, J1 and R1a, I would rather think that the Elamites were predominantly J2a (R1a being Indo-Iranian and J1 probably Arabic). Besides, the influence of Elam was directed eastward towards Baluchistan, where once again J2a dominates.

Haplogroup T is found mostly in Mesopotamia, then in the northern periphery where the Sumerians had colonies (Syria, eastern Anatolia, southern Caucasus). Its low frequency in historical Sumer (Iraqi marshes) is mainly due to the extremely strong presence of Arabs (74% of J1-P58), who arrived relatively recently. Additionally, that study only tested Arabs from the Al-Hawizah marshes, along the Iranian border, not between the Tigris and Euphrates. If we take out all the clearly post-Chalcolithic arrivals (J1-P58, Q, R1a and R1b), what is left in southern Iraq is J1(xP58), E1b1b, J2a, T, G and L, in that order of frequency. The Kuwait Y-DNA Project can also serve as a comparison. It shows that hg T and J2a are the two most common in the region after the Semitic J1-P58 and E1b1b.

The difficulty is to determine whether J1(xP58) and T were brought by Semitic people (Akkadians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Arabs) or were already there before. E1b1b is the Afro-Asiatic haplogroup par excellence, so I would not consider it native Sumerian. J2a could be Sumerian, but it has very little diversity among southern Iraqi (especially compared to the rest of Iraq) and might well have come with the Arabs or other recent invaders.

That leaves G, E1b1b, J1(xP58) and T as the possible Sumerian+Akkadian haplogroups. I don't have any details about the subclades of haplogroup G found in Iraq, so I cannot judge when it could have arrived.

if we check the 2012 link you provided, the main T % ( over 5%) happen in assyrias, azeri, kurd and western Persian lands ( there are no persians in eastern Iran )

But, the paper deals with mostly J1 and J2
Akkadian seems the best for T as it heads towards assyria and kurdistan .......IIRC the latest count of T in assyrians sits at 15.4%

looking through various project site, this below on the azeri is interesting in that it shows zero T for iranin azeri, while "true" azeri have T

Y-DNA of "true" Azeris
J2a-20.8%
R1a-19%
R1b-17.5%
E1b-11.1%
G2-8.0%
T-7.9%
L-4.8%
J1-4.8%
Q-4.8%
N-1.6%

Y-DNA of Iranian Azeris
J2b-21.11%
R1b-15.15%
G2-12.12%
J1-9.09%
R1a-9.09%
Q-9.09%
N-6.06%
L-3.03%
J2a-3.03%
R2-3.03%
G1-3.03%
C3-3.03%
O-3.03%

and J2a appears in the true azeri , while iranian azeri have J2b

EDIT...error by me...persians are in central and eastern Iran and not in western iran..............so the chart in link refers to central and eastern persians

[Goga]

Millions of ethnic Kurds have been assimilated into the Azeri nation in Azerbaijan. Even the president of the republic of Azerbaijdan, Ilham Aliyev, has Kurdish roots.

[Goga]

Kurdistansky Uyezd (Red Kurdistan)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistansky_Uyezd

Forced assimilation and ethnic cleansing in the Republic of Azerbaijan
http://arpush85.livejournal.com/583.html

Kurds in Azerbaijan face threat of assimilation
http://www.tert.am/en/news/2011/07/01/kurt/

Azerbaijan's Kurds Fear Loss Of National Identity
http://www.rferl.org/content/azerbai.../24252317.html

[Goga]

Kurdistana Sor / Red Kurdistan

[adamo]

Then explain the presence of T in tribes in Madagascar if only Omani Arabs and shirazi Persians of the Middle East had slave trade contact with them? Then explain the factual evidence of 8-10% T in Omanis and United Arab Emirates, with their proximity to the Persian gulf and ancient trading port of Hormuz were many Zoroastrians lived. Those T frequencies across central Iran on that map are NOT false. Kerman, Izeh; these two cities have 14% T, another test found 14% in Isfahan (others have found 7%) and 10% in Shiraz and Urmia as well. And then we take into account that T originated after K (central Iran) probably somewhere before the Pamir knot.

[Goga]

Another old footage about ethnic Kurds in Trans-Caucasia!

[adamo]

Goga please stop for a minute , my post needs to be addressed because it is very factual., stop posting nonsense.

[Goga]

I don't get it. Is your question addressed to me? But I do also believe that also y0DNA hg. T was also part of the Sumerians, along with J2a and r1a and maybe e even R1b. Btw, my vids were directed to the user 'Sile'

[adamo]

Then explain the presence of T in tribes in Madagascar if only Omani Arabs and shirazi Persians of the Middle East had slave trade contact with them? Then explain the factual evidence of 8-10% T in Omanis and United Arab Emirates, with their proximity to the Persian gulf and ancient trading port of Hormuz were many Zoroastrians lived. Those T frequencies across central Iran on that map are NOT false. Kerman, Izeh; these two cities have 14% T, another test found 14% in Isfahan (others have found 7%) and 10% in Shiraz and Urmia as well. And then we take into account that T originated after K (central Iran) probably somewhere before the Pamir knot.

[adamo]

Needs to be addressed.

[Aberdeen]

Then explain the presence of T in tribes in Madagascar if only Omani Arabs and shirazi Persians of the Middle East had slave trade contact with them? Then explain the factual evidence of 8-10% T in Omanis and United Arab Emirates, with their proximity to the Persian gulf and ancient trading port of Hormuz were many Zoroastrians lived. Those T frequencies across central Iran on that map are NOT false. Kerman, Izeh; these two cities have 14% T, another test found 14% in Isfahan (others have found 7%) and 10% in Shiraz and Urmia as well. And then we take into account that T originated after K (central Iran) probably somewhere before the Pamir knot.

If I had to take a quick guess, I'd say that traders from east Africa and what is now Iraq found Madagascar to be a good place to build trading outposts.

[adamo]

They came from Oman and Iran near the Persian gulf via literally the port of Hormuz big-Berdeen....how could these Arab slave traders have come from east Africa, they certainly ended up going to Somalia and the Horn of Africa; they didn't originate there.

[Alan]

if we check the 2012 link you provided, the main T % ( over 5%) happen in assyrias, azeri, kurd and western Persian lands ( there are no persians in eastern Iran )

But, the paper deals with mostly J1 and J2
Akkadian seems the best for T as it heads towards assyria and kurdistan .......IIRC the latest count of T in assyrians sits at 15.4%

looking through various project site, this below on the azeri is interesting in that it shows zero T for iranin azeri, while "true" azeri have T

Y-DNA of "true" Azeris
J2a-20.8%
R1a-19%
R1b-17.5%
E1b-11.1%
G2-8.0%
T-7.9%
L-4.8%
J1-4.8%
Q-4.8%
N-1.6%

Y-DNA of Iranian Azeris
J2b-21.11%
R1b-15.15%
G2-12.12%
J1-9.09%
R1a-9.09%
Q-9.09%
N-6.06%
L-3.03%
J2a-3.03%
R2-3.03%
G1-3.03%
C3-3.03%
O-3.03%

and J2a appears in the true azeri , while iranian azeri have J2b

EDIT...error by me...persians are in central and eastern Iran and not in western iran..............so the chart in link refers to central and eastern persians

Ancient Persians are from Southwest Iran, but if we speak about modern Persian speakers, they live in Southwest, Central, North and Northeast Iran.

Millions of ethnic Kurds have been assimilated into the Azeri nation in Azerbaijan. Even the president of the republic of Azerbaijdan, Ilham Aliyev, has Kurdish roots.

It is true that the Aliyevs are Kurds


Many Kurds were assimilated but there are still a ~100000 non assimilated Kurds there.

Azeris in general are basically assimilates Kurds and Caucasus Albanians.

[Alan]

I don't know about the T in Madagascar. But haplogroup T is approximately 30,000 years old, in other words older than R*, and perhaps older than the split between Q and R. Hg T is very common in the Horn of Africa, so I don't see why migrations from that region couldn't have brought T to Madagascar at some point since the Ice Age.

It likely didn't because it belongs to the IJKLT* strain of the yDNA tree and it's highest diversity is in the Middle East. Likely T was brought to East Africa by back migration of farmers.

[Maciamo]

It likely didn't because it belongs to the IJKLT* strain of the yDNA tree and it's highest diversity is in the Middle East. Likely T was brought to East Africa by back migration of farmers.

Or T was present all over the Middle East and East Africa during the late Paleolithic, and Middle Eastern farmers brought new subclades of T to East Africa. The problem with hg T is that it is seriously understudied. Just have a look at the phylogenetic tree. It's considerably smaller than that of R1b-L21 subclades, even though T is 20,000 to 35,000 years old and spread over 3 continents, while R1b-L21 is barely 5000 years old and all tucked in Northwest Europe. If T was properly studied its number of subclades might well exceed all those of R1b. Until we get proper data it's almost impossible to determine the history of T.

[Alan]

Or T was present all over the Middle East and East Africa during the late Paleolithic, and Middle Eastern farmers brought new subclades of T to East Africa. The problem with hg T is that it is seriously understudied. Just have a look at the phylogenetic tree. It's considerably smaller than that of R1b-L21 subclades, even though T is 20,000 to 35,000 years old and spread over 3 continents, while R1b-L21 is barely 5000 years old and all tucked in Northwest Europe. If T was properly studied its number of subclades might well exceed all those of R1b. Until we get proper data it's almost impossible to determine the history of T.

As I said, I believe T* played a much higher role in the far past.

[adamo]

You are all wrong. T did not come from the Horn of Africa to Madagascar, there is clear indication of Omani Arab and shirazi Persian settlment not only on the island, but among those tribes high in T. Many of those tribes have different founding stories, such as being founde by a sheik of Mecca (Saudi Arabia) and many of his followers. Even if T DID arrive from the Horn of Africa, it was imported via Arab slave trade regardless, when Arabs made contact with the region. Now that doesn't imply that T originated in the above mentioned two regions, as T haplotypes are much younger in Oman than say Egypt or turkey and the levant for example. But T haplotypes are old in Iran as well (slightly younger if not the same relative age as the Levantine ones) and surprisingly young in Horn of Africa and other minor parts of Africa.

[adamo]

I highly disagree with your opinions, even if Africans brought it to Madagascar, it arrived from a different source there originally too , with the tribes with T having founding origins from Quraish Adnani Arabs, tribe of Mohammed of Mecca (Saudi Arabia)

[Aberdeen]

You are all wrong. T did not come from the Horn of Africa to Madagascar, there is clear indication of Omani Arab and shirazi Persian settlment not only on the island, but among those tribes high in T. Many of those tribes have different founding stories, such as being founde by a sheik of Mecca (Saudi Arabia) and many of his followers. Even if T DID arrive from the Horn of Africa, it was imported via Arab slave trade regardless, when Arabs made contact with the region. Now that doesn't imply that T originated in the above mentioned two regions, as T haplotypes are much younger in Oman than say Egypt or turkey and the levant for example. But T haplotypes are old in Iran as well (slightly younger if not the same relative age as the Levantine ones) and surprisingly young in Horn of Africa and other minor parts of Africa.

Are you arguing that Shirazi Persians sacked Uruk over 5000 years ago? I hope not. And the modern day Persians I know would slap you if you called them Arabs - they'd consider it an insult.

[adamo]

No; no I'm not arguing that.....just re-read what I wrote . Omani Arabs and shirazi Persian arrived in 700 A.D. In 1000-1100 A.D. More Arabs arrived including Zanzibari slave traders, with the foundation stories associated with antemoro and antanosy people.

[Sile]

I don't know about the T in Madagascar. But haplogroup T is approximately 30,000 years old, in other words older than R*, and perhaps older than the split between Q and R. Hg T is very common in the Horn of Africa, so I don't see why migrations from that region couldn't have brought T to Madagascar at some point since the Ice Age.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0080932

[Sile]

Or T was present all over the Middle East and East Africa during the late Paleolithic, and Middle Eastern farmers brought new subclades of T to East Africa. The problem with hg T is that it is seriously understudied. Just have a look at the phylogenetic tree. It's considerably smaller than that of R1b-L21 subclades, even though T is 20,000 to 35,000 years old and spread over 3 continents, while R1b-L21 is barely 5000 years old and all tucked in Northwest Europe. If T was properly studied its number of subclades might well exceed all those of R1b. Until we get proper data it's almost impossible to determine the history of T.

Klyosov said that a lot of northern T could have mutated into R1a as there is only 9 mutations that is between ( seems a lot to me)
T and R1a
9 :2 =4,5 = 18,000 years ( at 4000 years per mutation change)
Klyosov, AA (2011) Haplotypes of R1b1a2-P312 and related subclades: origin and "ages" of most recent common ancestors. Proceedings of the Russian Academy of DNA Genealogy, v.4, No. 6, 1127-1195.

[adamo]

It's just funny nobody has answered my conclusions yet

[Maciamo]

Klyosov said that a lot of northern T could have mutated into R1a as there is only 9 mutations that is between ( seems a lot to me)
T and R1a
9 :2 =4,5 = 18,000 years ( at 4000 years per mutation change)
Klyosov, AA (2011) Haplotypes of R1b1a2-P312 and related subclades: origin and "ages" of most recent common ancestors. Proceedings of the Russian Academy of DNA Genealogy, v.4, No. 6, 1127-1195.

One haplogroup mutating into another one ? Now that's just silly, Sile (sorry, couldn't resist).

[Maciamo]

It's just funny nobody has answered my conclusions yet

Feeling ignored ?