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Thread: Analysing Eurasian & African autosomal DNA from Lazaridis et al. 2013

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    lol, what garden hoses? From animal bladders and skin sacks, or whatever WHG used for water storage.


    Your words about this ongoing R versus I war is always confusing for me, specially if I consider it nonexistent here on Eupedia. Even if somehow I can't recognize this supposed war, I'm sure sparkey (I2c) would quickly step in to deal with it as the moderator.
    Perhaps you the one who strongly desire a conflict, or feel a danger coming from all directions,... looking for it, talking about it,...just to feel excited and alive?
    Poor LeBrok.

    He goads me yet again into a battle of wits, knowing full well that I will almost effortlessly lop off his head (metaphorically speaking of course) simply by applying my more robust grasp of logic... and my more complete command of the English language. I do admire his bravery though.

    Alas my Polish-Canadian friend, I'm off to work this morning so I must sheath my cranial broadsword. You can relax a bit longer... I won't be drinking ale from your skull-cup on this day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    U2e ...wow same as my paternal Gmother ...........Her family came from Capoistria to Merlengo Veneto in around 1700. But her family name is ancient in Italy, about 450AD according to the family tree owners ...of which there are about 50.

    What is your father? ...my Maternal Gfather is R-Z331
    As I said, I don't know my dad's yDNA .... he died 20 years ago.

    The earliest I can track my mtDNA is back to a Ghelfi-early 1500's. We seem to have liked broadcasting our political affiliations...the surname is all over my family tree, lol.

    We also seem to cling to our ancestral areas...like a cluster of datteri clinging to the rocks in the Mediterranean.
    http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...4#.Us64L7RdDRZ

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post

    I already know that...but the 98% wouldn't be realistic considering all the factors we know , since on the PCA they are very far from the Bedouins...Also on the ADMIXTURE run they show considerable HG component before getting their own

    Also, remember we have also the Dodecads of Gök4 (called Skoglung_Farmer on the study) is highly Atlantic_Baltic (Hunter-Gather show 100% of it) :





    Yes, that is one of the contradictions I see on this study, that on PCA they are close to HG's, yet on their ancestry estimates they consider around 60-70% near-eastern.



    It's not about an agenda, it's a bout common sense. If they had only 7% of HG they wouldn't :

    - Cluster so far from near-easterns on PCA plot
    - Show so much HG component on ADMIXTURE before showing their own component
    - Show positive f-statistics



    The EEF containt a lot of HG ancestry, therefore they are a product of Europe. Simple as that. Remember they are European farmers..



    I already knew this fact, but don't see the need to mention that, since it has nothing to do with anything, this layer of african-admixture in the Near-Eastern happened AFTER the near-east farmers migrations, because these EFF don't show that much african admixture, if any at all.


    Their HG ancestry is of an unkown kind, but ancestrally related with thre WHG.


    Of course I do care about the truth. If you want to believe that the EEF were pure Near-Easterns ok that's up to you, but then you demonstrate you have not understood anything about that study nor about genetics.
    I don't think LeBroc *wants* to prove EEF wholly Near Eastern, nor do I think it's necessary to impugn his knowledge of genetics, which he has amply demonstrated here on this site.

    The question is why did you produce the 33% figure for the H/G admixture in EEF when you knew it was merely the upper limit of the range, and the authors specifically stated that they didn't believe either that figure or 2%, the lower end of the range, were accurate. That almost makes it seem as if you were attempting to distort the findings.

    I mean, here is the quote itself...

    There are REASONS TO DOUBT BOTH THE LOWER (near60%), SINCE ALDER PROVIDES ONLY A LOWER BOUND ON AFRICAN ANCESTRY, BUT ALSO THE HIGHER ESTIMATES (near 100%) since there is direct evidence that Stuttgart
    has European hunter-gatherer ancestry (Fig. 1B and Table S10.1). Determining the precise levels of Near Eastern admixture in Stuttgart must await further ancient DNA studies from both Europe and the Near East, but we can at least reasonably claim that of th MOST OF THE SAMPLE'S ANCESTRY WAS NEAR EASTERN.

    So, why all this talk of 33% H/G ancestry in EEF, or 2% for that matter, when it's clear that the authors think that both numbers are highly unlikely?

    As for the PCA, you don't need me to tell you that it only represents two dimensions, and so while it is some evidence, it has to be taken in context, and the statistical analysis in the supplement is more informative.

    In reference to the Dodecad cluster analyses, I have used and analyzed and learned a great deal from them, but it is clear that those clusters do NOT represent ancestral populations, and that there are layers beneath them.

    Later analyses by Dienekes himself made that clear.
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09...decad-k7b.html
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/08...-k12b-and.html

    You'll note that the Atlantic/Baltic component is majority Southern and Caucasus/Gedrosia, with a slice of Siberian.

    Also, none of this has anything to do with the Western Mediterranean. Any differences between western Mediterranean and eastern Mediterranean as components obviously deveoped later, and the cause is probably drift. The admixture with H/G's that produced EEF took place either at the Anatolia/Greek interface, or in the Balkans, and the movement THEN took place toward the western Med. The genome of the Iberian farmer, which is very Oetzi like, should make that clear.

    Finally, for clarity, the approx. 4 or 7% African admixture which was mentioned upthread indeed relates to the admixture in the Bedouin, which the authors attempted to remove before using them as a surrogate population for the EEF. I'm not sure that they were the best choice, but that's another issue for another day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Do you think I'm close if I say that T* (maybe LT*) is 'Perso-Gedrosian', J2* (maybe J*) is 'Caucaso-Persian' and R1* (maybe R*) is 'Caucaso-Gedrosian' in Caucaso-Perso-Gedrosian component?
    your forgetting that the highest T % are from north Caucasus with the 8% of North Ossetians to the west side of the Caspian sea ( 7% dagestan Lezgian ) down to 7% Azeri people(Azerbaijani ) , across south caucasas 6% Armenians, 6% zargos mountains of persia/iran and then with 16% assyrians.

    People seem to want to keep attaching LT together, when the older IJKLT is more relevant in this article. The old statement that T and L came from K is in error, it is T and L came from K2 ( a artificial marker never used today) and this is only because geneticists did not have the time to investigate ( as currently being said) that LT split from K along with IJ

    IMO if you want a break up ( i do not know why)
    L = Perso-Gedrosian
    J2 + T = Caucaso-Persian
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    It's not motivation, is what the study saiys ¡t's an unkown HG, not WHG, and yes the Atlantic-Baltic component includes some EEF genes, but since it's 100% in Hunter-Gathers, it's a close component that we have for a rough estimate of HG ancestry. If you look at Sardinians, they score 50% of this component on Dodecad, and at the study of Lazaridis they got rouglhy half of the blue Mesolithic component, so yes they are similar components.


    It's not an iberian hypothesis, it's a West-Med (Sardinia, Iberia, North Italy) ...also we don't know if the East-Med/Central Euro famers were different from western ones, a different source, remember their mtDNA is different,
    Why you throwing in North-Italy with Sardinian. If you check all autosomal plots today, the closest plot to North-Italy is always Bulgaria, the closest to Sardinian is South-france as per this article .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As I said, I don't know my dad's yDNA .... he died 20 years ago.

    The earliest I can track my mtDNA is back to a Ghelfi-early 1500's. We seem to have liked broadcasting our political affiliations...the surname is all over my family tree, lol.

    We also seem to cling to our ancestral areas...like a cluster of datteri clinging to the rocks in the Mediterranean.
    http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...4#.Us64L7RdDRZ
    Ghelf war still rages in Italy behind the scenes
    with nearly 800 of your surnames
    http://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-cog...taliani/GHELFI

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post

    IMO if you want a break up ( i do not know why)
    L = Perso-Gedrosian
    J2 + T = Caucaso-Persian
    On the first look it appears reasonable but I would be very careful with these kind of clusters (the reason why I didn't gave Goga my opnion). There are isolates in the Caucasus (like the Laz) who have very high frequency of L. Also L* shows presence in allot of Caucasian populations (Chechens, Armenians etc.). We can't say for sure where this or that Haplogroup started exactly. But what we know is that it must have been somewhere between Turkenistan-Kazakhstan-Balochistan-Afghanistan-Iran-Mesopotamia-Eastern Anatolia-Caucasus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The question is why did you produce the 33% figure for the H/G admixture in EEF when you knew it was merely the upper limit of the range,

    There are REASONS TO DOUBT BOTH THE LOWER (near60%), SINCE ALDER PROVIDES ONLY A LOWER BOUND ON AFRICAN ANCESTRY, BUT ALSO THE HIGHER ESTIMATES (near 100%) since there is direct evidence that Stuttgart
    has European hunter-gatherer ancestry (Fig. 1B and Table S10.1). Determining the precise levels of Near Eastern admixture in Stuttgart must await further ancient DNA studies from both Europe and the Near East, but we can at least reasonably claim that of th MOST OF THE SAMPLE'S ANCESTRY WAS NEAR EASTERN.

    So, why all this talk of 33% H/G ancestry in EEF, or 2% for that matter, when it's clear that the authors think that both numbers are highly unlikely?
    Because if we take a look at the ADMIXTURe, before the Sardinians/EFF get their own component, they are split between Mesolithic HG and Bedouin :






    In reference to the Dodecad cluster analyses, I have used and analyzed and learned a great deal from them, but it is clear that those clusters do NOT represent ancestral populations, and that there are layers beneath them.

    Later analyses by Dienekes himself made that clear.
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09...decad-k7b.html
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/08...-k12b-and.html

    You'll note that the Atlantic/Baltic component is majority Southern and Caucasus/Gedrosia, with a slice of Siberian.
    In the first link, the North-European component appears mostly as Atlantic-Baltic, and in turn, the Atlantic-Baltic appears mostly as Northern-European. In the second link there seems to be an error between the bars and the legend of colors, considering that African appears as 100% South-Asian or Southern as 100% Atlantic-Baltic. In any case, yes there is an common shared ancient ancestry between the north-euro components and the Caucasus ones.

    Also, none of this has anything to do with the Western Mediterranean. Any differences between western Mediterranean and eastern Mediterranean as components obviously deveoped later, and the cause is probably drift. The admixture with H/G's that produced EEF took place either at the Anatolia/Greek interface, or in the Balkans, and the movement THEN took place toward the western Med.
    Of course it has to do with western-mediterranean, the difference is not genetic drift, since these populations (SW Euros) have the lowest levels of the ANE ancestry of all West-Eurasia, meaning there have been different sources of hunter-gatherer ancestry as well as near-east farmer ancestry.

    The genome of the Iberian farmer, which is very Oetzi like, should make that clear.
    What iberian farmer ? There is none, In any case, yes they were most likely EEF

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Because if we take a look at the ADMIXTURe, before the Sardinians/EFF get their own component, they are split between Mesolithic HG and Bedouin :


    This is because Sardinians have additional 25-30% H&G to their EEF and Bedouins are suboptimal for proto-Near Eastern farmer component since using African admixed population as reference will make any other Eurasian appear more H&G as they in reality are. If we had a isolated farmer population in the Levant things might have looked different. Unfortunately Bedouins from Arabia are the only people who retained their farmer ancestry but (unfortunately for scientific reasons) are already admixed with a second wave of East African migrants which brought additional ~7-10% East African genes. For Gods sake how can someone be so obstinate even after so many attempts of so many Users, with considerable knowledge about genetics, to explain it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Another indicator is the macro Haplogroup IJK. Considering that I* as well K* is connected to ANE and WHG, it is unlikely that only the close cousin J is entirely different.

    I would rather assume that Southwest Asian was spread by E1b1b* and some subclade of J1*(J1c3d) since it is basically East Mediterranean with an East African shift.
    I'm tired and cannot go deeply in the central question of this thread, but just concerning this precise point, I say I think the core of the Y-J ancestors were living for a long time between North Near Eastern, the Zagros and South Caucasus (with some rare Y-I* and Y-G*? and Y-T*?) - I think they colonized (more J1 than J2) Arabia taking the strong side upon Y-E1b (M78?)males and their wives, loosing a lot of their 'west-asian' component to take arabian-Red Sea autosomals - drift gave advantage to Y-J1 -




    d

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Because if we take a look at the ADMIXTURe, before the Sardinians/EFF get their own component, they are split between Mesolithic HG and Bedouin :







    In the first link, the North-European component appears mostly as Atlantic-Baltic, and in turn, the Atlantic-Baltic appears mostly as Northern-European. In the second link there seems to be an error between the bars and the legend of colors, considering that African appears as 100% South-Asian or Southern as 100% Atlantic-Baltic. In any case, yes there is an common shared ancient ancestry between the north-euro components and the Caucasus ones.


    Of course it has to do with western-mediterranean, the difference is not genetic drift, since these populations (SW Euros) have the lowest levels of the ANE ancestry of all West-Eurasia, meaning there have been different sources of hunter-gatherer ancestry as well as near-east farmer ancestry.


    What iberian farmer ? There is none, In any case, yes they were most likely EEF

    Yes, Wilhelm, there is indeed an Iberian farmer, from Burgos, to be precise, and from only 4,000 years ago, (2000 BC) and he's a lot like Oetzi, who is a lot like the Sardinians, but more Southern, to use the old terms, and we know the EEF numbers for Sardinians. There will surely be some differences between the genomes of the various ancient EEFs, but I doubt they'll be earthshattering. The paper should be out soon. I'm sure someone will run his genome through the new tools and models, and then we'll get the precise figures.

    Oddný Ósk Sverrisdóttir et al., A late Neolithic Iberian farmer exhibits genetic affinity to Neolithic Scandinavian farmers and a Bronze Age central European farmer

    The spread of farming, the neolithisation process, swept over Europe after the advent of the farming lifestyle in the near east approximately 11,000 years ago. However the mode of transmission and its impact on the demographic patterns of Europe remains largely unknown. In this study we obtained : 66,476,944 bp of genomic DNA from the remains of a 4000 year old Neolithic farmer from the site of El Portalón, 15 km east of Burgos, Spain. We compared the genomic signature of this individual to modern-day populations as well as the few Neolithic individuals that has produced large-scale autosomal data. The Neolithic Portalón individual is genetically most similar to southern Europeans, similar to a Scandinavian Neolithic farmer and the Tyrolean Iceman. In contrast, the Neolithic Portalón individual displays little affinity to two Mesolithic samples from the near-by area, La Brana, demonstrating a distinct change in population history between 7,000 and 4,000 years ago for the northern Iberian Peninsula.


    http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/rec...d=diva2:665597

    As to the Lazaridis et al paper, the authors know and evaluate the importance of the data in their own paper from the old Admixture tool. They then proceed to use other statistical modeling, and when they write about the amount of the H/G component in EEF, they make it quite clear that they doubt the upper bound around 30%. You linked to the supplemental material yourself, even if you didn't quote all of it, or provide the tables.

    You also might want to take a look at this chart where Dienekes interpreted his components in terms of one another...North European is about 60% Atlantic Med, a sliver of Siberian, and the rest, approaching 40%, is Gedrosian. Atlantic Med is over 90% Caucasus.
    http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2v8i...5#.Us7_obRdDRY

    Or how about this one for Atlantic-Baltic:
    http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2enb...5#.Us8Bs7RdDRY
    Atlantic Baltic comes out as a sliver of Amerindian, close to 70% Caucasus/Gedrosia, and about 30% Southern.

    There's nothing confusing about the graphs whatsoever, although I think the use of this method for ancient ancestry purposes is now rather limited.

    Finally, the neolithic spread from the south-east Wilhelm. EEF is an east Mediterranean component with some western H/G added before it ever got to Iberia. Even if these farmers picked up a little more western H/G when they got there, it wouldn't effect the numbers from this paper. The EEF figures we are discussing for the modern European populations are based on the genes of this LBK woman.

    You've had a good run, Wilhelm, but when someone is in a hole, the advice is usually to stop digging.

    The data is what it is...and I don't understand what the problem is with accepting it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    This is because Sardinians have additional 25-30% H&G to their EEF
    What are you talking about ?? The Stuttgart individual looks like Sardinians, there is no additional HG, where do you get that ?

    . If we had a isolated farmer population in the Levant things might have looked different. Unfortunately Bedouins from Arabia are the only people who retained their farmer ancestry but (unfortunately for scientific reasons) are already admixed with a second wave of East African migrants which brought additional ~7-10% East African genes. For Gods sake how can someone be so obstinate even after so many attempts of so many Users, with considerable knowledge about genetics, to explain it.
    I already know this fact, in fact it's MYSELF who has talked about this layer of african admixture ocurring AFTER the farming migrations , and that is something that is mentioned in the study...and the study attempts to address this problem by outgruping Yorubans.


    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Finally, the neolithic spread from the south-east Wilhelm. EEF is an east Mediterranean component with some western H/G added before it ever got to Iberia. Even if these farmers picked up a little more western H/G when they got there, it wouldn't effect the numbers from this paper. The EEF figures we are discussing for the modern European populations are based on the genes of this LBK woman.

    You've had a good run, Wilhelm, but when someone is in a hole, the advice is usually to stop digging.

    The data is what it is...and I don't understand what the problem is with accepting it.
    Im not in any hole, but whatever, im tired of discussing with you guys, if you want to believe that European Farmers have no HG ancestry, and are pure near-easterns, that's fine, but evidence clearly proves my theory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    What are you talking about ?? The Stuttgart individual looks like Sardinians, there is no additional HG, where do you get that ?


    I already know this fact, in fact it's MYSELF who has talked about this layer of african admixture ocurring AFTER the farming migrations , and that is something that is mentioned in the study...and the study attempts to address this problem by outgruping Yorubans.



    Im not in any hole, but whatever, im tired of discussing with you guys, if you want to believe that European Farmers have no HG ancestry, and are pure near-easterns, that's fine, but evidence clearly proves my theory.
    I have NEVER stated, nor do I believe that the EEF had no HG ancestry. Do NOT distort my statements.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I have NEVER stated, nor do I believe that the EEF had no HG ancestry. Do NOT distort my statements.
    He comes back from time to time and every time it is the same story. Exaggeration, distortion and even lying as per this example. All of this with one goal in mind, to show Iberia as much European as possible, as much white as possible, as much celtic as possible. Anyone entertaining different point of view will be immediately under attack. I'm surprised only Wilhelm showed up this time from all the Celtiberians.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    He comes back from time to time and every time it is the same story. Exaggeration, distortion and even lying as per this example. All of this with one goal in mind, to show Iberia as much European as possible, as much white as possible, as much celtic as possible. Anyone entertaining different point of view will be immediately under attack. I'm surprised only Wilhelm showed up this time from all the Celtiberians.
    Maybe because the other one have finally accepted the reality. I have generally a good view on Catalans and there is allot of mutual respect between them and my people on many level (there is even a Kurdistan street in Barcelona). I will definitely not change my mind because of some disagreement in individual cases on the net. But I have to admit that allot of Iberians on such Forums have a strong obsession with Britain and phantasies of being pure bred Paleolithic people who found refugees in caves when the Ice Age came, while the rest of all Europe is mixed bred. Allot of them even dislike the "South European" classification and would be rather classified together with Atlantic French and Britains. I mean come on everyone has an small agenda but in such a delusional manner is never good.

    But ironically this is only the case on the Internet. I have never came across an Iberian who had such unusual view of themselves. And I have met and seen allot of them. Allot who looked basically Iberian some who looked rather darker and some other of them I could swear who could easilly pass as French, Dutch or German. So there is indeed variety in Iberians.
    Last edited by Alan; 10-01-14 at 13:34.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Maybe because the other one have finally accepted the reality. I have generally a good view on Catalans and there is allot of mutual respect between them and my people on many level (there is even a Kurdistan street in Barcelona). I will definitely not change my mind because of some disagreement in individual cases on the net. But I have to admit that allot of Iberians on such Forums have a strong obsession with Britain and phantasies of being pure bred Paleolithic people who found refugees in caves when the Ice Age came, while the rest of all Europe is mixed bred. Allot of them even dislike the "South European" classification and would be rather classified together with Atlantic French and Britains. I mean come on everyone has an small agenda but in such a delusional manner is never good.

    But ironically this is only the case on the Internet. I have never came across an Iberian who had such unusual view of themselves. And I have met and seen allot of them. Allot who looked basically Iberian some who looked rather darker and some other of them I could swear who could easilly pass as French or German. So there is indeed variety in Iberians.
    Catalans, of the ones I know say, its because of their view to be closer to French ( occitan) "northern europe" linguistically and culturally as in the past, than with Castilian "southern Europe" culture which is tied with the berbers. Catalan and Provencal troubadours scurried back and forth between liguria and barcelona

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    According to the old genographic project map, T split off from K in southern Iraq (Sumerian region). One branch split from there and headed from northern Saudi Arabia through Egypt all he way towards Algeria/morocco. The other branch headed from southern Iraq through turkey and towards northeastern italy passing by Slovenia, Hungary etc. I don't know how much of this to believe, but my point is, T has a center of weight near southern Iraq/ south-western Iran, south-central Iran and southeastern Iran. But the easternmost part of Iran bordering Pakistan/Afghanistan is NOT affected by T. L on the other hand, starts augmenting in frequency in easternmost Iran bordering southern Pakistan. It peaks in Pakistan and slightly lower in parts of Afghanistan, and again lower frequencies towards westernmost India.

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    Just look at maps of sister L and T on Wikipedia, you'll get an idea of their vicinity but T peaks in southern Iraq and within the confines of Iran, with a southernmost center of weight from west to east of Iran it is present. It starts to drop heavily near southeasternmost Iran, where small L frequencies begin. L peaks in Pakistan.

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    T is easternmost Middle East. L is Central Asia, truly centered on Pakistan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I thought about this too, but the Mal'ta boy didn't have any Caucaso-Perso-Gedrosian, so it can't be linked to R*.
    You used K=20, but on a lower K=19 run that MA1 Johny-boy has about 1/3 (of total) of Caucas-Gedrosia component. And Kalash even 3/4 of total! That dark green of Kalash is actually Caucasus-Gerosia mixed with South Asian.



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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Maybe because the other one have finally accepted the reality.
    Wow, that will be a day! I feel like celebrating already. :)
    Now, let's hope that our friends on Balkans can accept each other and new reality.

    . I have generally a good view on Catalans and there is allot of mutual respect between them and my people on many level (there is even a Kurdistan street in Barcelona). I will definitely not change my mind because of some disagreement in individual cases on the net.
    I like Spanish culture myself, and even think about buying a house by the sea on day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    According to the old genographic project map, T split off from K in southern Iraq (Sumerian region). One branch split from there and headed from northern Saudi Arabia through Egypt all he way towards Algeria/morocco. The other branch headed from southern Iraq through turkey and towards northeastern italy passing by Slovenia, Hungary etc. I don't know how much of this to believe, but my point is, T has a center of weight near southern Iraq/ south-western Iran, south-central Iran and southeastern Iran. But the easternmost part of Iran bordering Pakistan/Afghanistan is NOT affected by T. L on the other hand, starts augmenting in frequency in easternmost Iran bordering southern Pakistan. It peaks in Pakistan and slightly lower in parts of Afghanistan, and again lower frequencies towards westernmost India.
    recheck

    T split form K in northern Iran. L split from K in south-east Iran

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicquarreler View Post
    I won't be drinking ale from your skull-cup on this day.
    Excellent choice of a vessel. Very animistic and primitive, deserving hg I. ...with a smile of R1a comrade tovarishtch.

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    North-central Iran or just northern Iran? Your telling me highest diversity and home of T is northern Iran? Why is it so rare there? L's highest diversity is southeastern Iran....deffinetly seems plausible but there must have been a movement even further east, why did T generally move westwards, wether it be Egypt, Jordan or the rare Phoenician enclaves in Europe? How did that happen? It's definite; T is most present in Europe near Mediterranean coastal regions that were colonizedby Phoenicians (Chios, west Sicily, north Corsica, Ibiza, coastal Campania region, Cadiz (southernmost Spain) but then why is T so rare in Lebanon today? If the Phoenicians had really spread it, wouldn't it be more frequent in Lebanese males? Although it is quite frequent (21%) in nearby jordanian males according to geno 2.0, so what gives? We DO know now that Omani Arabs and shirazi Persians (Shiraz is south-central Iran) brought T to the Horn of Africa and Madagascar, but what of Europe? Other than frequency peaks for T smack on every ancient Phoenician colony site, what evidence is there to corroborate this when looking at the modern genetic composition of Lebanon, for example?

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    I find interesting that one of the only T-PF7443's in geno 2.0 is a southern German fellow, and a man from La Palma, the most western of the Canary Islands of the coast of morocco/Mauritania in the Atlantic Ocean. This pretty much solidifies me to be a Phoenician or Carthaginian ancestor as this was just another "Ibiza" fort to the Phoenicians. I'm not surprised if more T1a1a3's will be discovered on the Canary Islands, Cadiz (al Gadir), Ibiza islands, northern Corsica, or western Sicily, maybe a few regions of coastal Tunisia or morocco would have them as well. Malta would also be a good place to look. I have found a rare southern Sardinian sample to be T-PF7443+ as well.
    Last edited by adamo; 10-01-14 at 10:36.

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