Analysing Eurasian & African autosomal DNA from Lazaridis et al. 2013

[adamo]

Just to give you an idea, the Phoenicians of Tyre founded sites on Malta, Cadiz (southern Spain) and the entire north-west African empire of Carthage, with it's few isolated city-states. The Tartessians derived from them. They would have left multiple sites on the island of Malta, 5 or so cities on libya's Mediterranean coast, another 5 or so on the Tunisian coast, same for coastal Algeria and 3 sites on the Moroccan coas, whereas southern Spain by the north-African coast has 8 or so Phoenician colonies. Ibiza was colonized and southern Sardinia has 4 Phoenician colonies. Western Sicily had numerous Phoenician colonies as well.

[kamani]

Sardinia was a Phoenician colony for a long time and Sardinians do have a lot of the typical Levantine y-dna groups (some in small percentages), but they don't have any South-West Asian or North African component. This means even the Phoenicians did not have much South-West Asian or North-African and were mostly Neolithic Near Easterns.

Region	I2	R1b	G2a	J2	J1	E1b1b	T + (L)	Q
Sardinia	37%	22%	15%	10%	2.5%	10%	1.5%	2%

So the Neolithic Near Eastern y-dna now becomes: E-M78 + E-M123 , G2a, J2, J1, and some R1b. I2 would be their paleolithic HG component.

Another conclusion is that there was no Caucaso-Perso-Gedrosian in the Levant in the time of the Phoenicians. And Caucaso-Perso-Gedrosian is probably associated with R1a, which Sardinians don't have.

[adamo]

T is very rare on Sardinia though (although I heard of a T-PF7443+ from there regardless) as are most other Neolithic lineages when taken independently...J2 (10%), E3b (10%), G2a is more frequent although it and E3b were probably not brought by the Phoenicians....when taken together they account for some 30-40% of Sardinian lineages; basically the amount of I-M26 on the island. G2a seems to have been particularly successful on Sardinia and in southern italy for some reason but this isn't reflective of Greece, for example., basically European highs for the G-P15 lineage. G-M201 is found in low frequencies from Iran to the Hindu Kush mountain range tribes near Pakistan, with a probable Iranian origin.

[adamo]

In terms of geno 2.0 (haven't checked ftdna) in terms of T-PF7443+ we have four individuals to work with here. Canary Islands, Campania (Caserta) Italy, a Sardinian and a German. I'm gonna go ahead and postulate a Phoenician link. La Palma (he westernmost canary island) had heavy Phoenician/Carthaginian influence from this same men that found Cadiz and Ibiza. The Sardinian is a rare Phoenician probably too, as is my marker (don't forget T is found at 18% in Sciacca Sicily, in the exact domain were the Phoenicians settled.) Marsala, Palermo, Selinunte, Pantelleria island, Erice, Favignana island, Aegadian islands, castellamare del golfo and cefalu were all Phoenician sites. We also know of a 7-8% high on the campanian coast and several central/north italian isolated cities have high frequencies as well. Same for 1-2 isolated pockets near Bavaria. A few regions of Spain and Portugal have interesting frequencies as well, although he spaniards lean towards Phoenician colonization whereas the Portuguese T1b signals are more in line with recent Jewish influence. It is not well understood why Chios has 25% T but it could be do to passing under Persian dominion and some studies on Aegean islands + Crete have found up to 33% T.

[Wilhelm]

He comes back from time to time and every time it is the same story. Exaggeration, distortion and even lying as per this example. All of this with one goal in mind, to show Iberia as much European as possible, as much white as possible, as much celtic as possible. Anyone entertaining different point of view will be immediately under attack. I'm surprised only Wilhelm showed up this time from all the Celtiberians.

Talk about distortion...I never talked about Celts or Celtiberians in this thread, it's you who is obsessed with it.

Maybe because the other one have finally accepted the reality.

What I said is just what the study of Lazaridis says, there is no "accepting of reality"...

Catalans, of the ones I know say, its because of their view to be closer to French ( occitan) "northern europe" linguistically and culturally as in the past, than with Castilian "southern Europe" culture which is tied with the berbers. Catalan and Provencal troubadours scurried back and forth between liguria and barcelona

This is getting off the track for some weird reason...but neither Catalan culture is "northern European" nor Castilian is "berber" culture, that's nonsense.

[nordicquarreler]

Excellent choice of a vessel. Very animistic and primitive, deserving hg I. ...with a smile of R1a comrade tovarishtch.

Now that's funny!

I actually chortled-- no joke!

[Sile]

In terms of geno 2.0 (haven't checked ftdna) in terms of T-PF7443+ we have four individuals to work with here. Canary Islands, Campania (Caserta) Italy, a Sardinian and a German. I'm gonna go ahead and postulate a Phoenician link. La Palma (he westernmost canary island) had heavy Phoenician/Carthaginian influence from this same men that found Cadiz and Ibiza. The Sardinian is a rare Phoenician probably too, as is my marker (don't forget T is found at 18% in Sciacca Sicily, in the exact domain were the Phoenicians settled.) Marsala, Palermo, Selinunte, Pantelleria island, Erice, Favignana island, Aegadian islands, castellamare del golfo and cefalu were all Phoenician sites. We also know of a 7-8% high on the campanian coast and several central/north italian isolated cities have high frequencies as well. Same for 1-2 isolated pockets near Bavaria. A few regions of Spain and Portugal have interesting frequencies as well, although he spaniards lean towards Phoenician colonization whereas the Portuguese T1b signals are more in line with recent Jewish influence. It is not well understood why Chios has 25% T but it could be do to passing under Persian dominion and some studies on Aegean islands + Crete have found up to 33% T.

Your getting confused with origins and high percentages. you always look at T1 for origin instead of just plain T.
Basal T of which represent 4% of all T in the world is found in Syria, Caucasus, Caspian sea area ..................and Nat Geno also says south germany.
T1 is 96% of all T in the world has nothing to do with origins.

So do not worry about high numbers for T1 as these are irrelevant to origin

[Knovas]

Maybe because the other one have finally accepted the reality. I have generally a good view on Catalans

There's no need to not mention my nickname Alan. If you want to say Knovas, just say it.

I'm following the discussion, I do not fear different points of view. I'm simply getting tired of discussing the same exact things again and again. The "Iberian agenda argument" is not very boring, but incredibly boring I'd say. If that's the discussion, then I prefer to stay away.

I'll keep reading anyway. Enjoy ;)

[Alan]

There's no need to not mention my nickname Alan. If you want to say Knovas, just say it.

I'm following the discussion, I do not fear different points of view. I'm simply getting tired of discussing the same exact things again and again. The "Iberian agenda argument" is not very boring, but incredibly boring I'd say. If that's the discussion, then I prefer to stay away.

I'll keep reading anyway. Enjoy ;)

I didn't said your name because I believed there are other Iberian users too. Actually I wasn't even thinking about you.

[LeBrok]

There's no need to not mention my nickname Alan. If you want to say Knovas, just say it.

I'm following the discussion, I do not fear different points of view. I'm simply getting tired of discussing the same exact things again and again. The "Iberian agenda argument" is not very boring, but incredibly boring I'd say. If that's the discussion, then I prefer to stay away.

I'll keep reading anyway. Enjoy ;)

I always found your opinion balanced and objective. I was thinking about fellas like Lynx, Drac or Cambria.

[adamo]

What the bloody heck are you talking about Sile? I'm referring to T1a1a3, my downstream subclade, re-read my posts please. I said nothing of the origins of T*. I said I find it odd how the only T1a1a3's are me (Naples region), canary islander, southern Sardinian and a German fellow in geno 2.0; can you find some more on ftdna?

[Sile]

What the bloody heck are you talking about Sile? I'm referring to T1a1a3, my downstream subclade, re-read my posts please. I said nothing of the origins of T*. I said I find it odd how the only T1a1a3's are me (Naples region), canary islander, southern Sardinian and a German fellow in geno 2.0; can you find some more on ftdna?

What I am saying is that everything you mentioned which has T1 is migrational are not places of origin of T-M184 ( Basal) .

Basal places by genetic companies for T-M184 ( T1* is not Basal )
Ftdna = South Pakistan
Nat G = North Caucasus ( plus south Germany? only heard of this )
23andme = Shores of the south caspian sea
Ancestry = Assyrian and Kurdish lands
Genomes = Armenia
and Another company IIRC British/scottish DNA = Uzbekistan
None have mesopotamia , they only have this area for K

[nordicquarreler]

Adamo, you do a good job of explaining basic y-DNA relationships.

Could you look into and explain the confusing (to me anyway) status adjustment that we see with the older haplogroup S grouping? Are Melanasians now haplogroup M primarily?

And moderators... this is related to this thread... although it may not seem so at first glance.

[adamo]

That's a difficult question, M and S (Papua new Guinean haplogroups derived from k) are the ones I understand the least; haven't researched them much.

[adamo]

Geno 2.0 postulates a west Asian origin, with M70+ involved in kebaran and Emirian culture, nothing more. Ftdna indicates northern Afghanistan not Pakistan.

[Sile]

Geno 2.0 postulates a west Asian origin, with M70+ involved in kebaran and Emirian culture, nothing more. Ftdna indicates northern Afghanistan not Pakistan.

Again you mention M70.....M70 is not basal , M184 is ..................it should be easier to track as there is only 4% in the world

[adamo]

So which of the aforementioned locations was T-M184* origin according to you?

[Sile]

So which of the aforementioned locations was T-M184* origin according to you?

see my post #87

[adamo]

Really? Pakistan?

[Knovas]

I always found your opinion balanced and objective. I was thinking about fellas like Lynx, Drac or Cambria.

I don't know this Lynx, but he's out of the forum since a very long time I think. I forgot Drac is Catalan origin as well, so I thought he was refering to me.

[Drac II]

There's no need to not mention my nickname Alan. If you want to say Knovas, just say it.

I'm following the discussion, I do not fear different points of view. I'm simply getting tired of discussing the same exact things again and again. The "Iberian agenda argument" is not very boring, but incredibly boring I'd say. If that's the discussion, then I prefer to stay away.

I'll keep reading anyway. Enjoy ;)

Curiously enough, the #1 instigator of this "Iberian agenda" hypocritical myth around here is an administrator himself (LeBrok) How exactly was he chosen for this task, which ideally requires an impartial, objective person with no agendas of his own, is a real puzzle.

[Drac II]

I always found your opinion balanced and objective. I was thinking about fellas like Lynx, Drac or Cambria.

Too bad that yours never is, at least certainly not when it comes to "Iberians". One only needs to find someone targeting Iberians for any reason in any given thread and wait a little bit to quite predictably see you adding fuel to the fire. It never fails. Keep on proving us right.

[LeBrok]

Too bad that yours never is, at least certainly not when it comes to "Iberians". One only needs to find someone targeting Iberians for any reason in any given thread and wait a little bit to quite predictably see you adding fuel to the fire. It never fails. Keep on proving us right.

Damn, I'm a profit lol, here he is, showing up only to "protect" Iberian "honor and purity". They never participate in other scientific discoveries and discussions, just for love of science or journey through history of humankind with us, but only come to attack the "enemies" of Iberia, slanders of white celtic heritage, or the ones who "brown" Iberians in any way.
So how dare I call it An Agenda? lol

[Wilhelm]

Damn, I'm a profit lol, here he is, showing up only to "protect" Iberian "honor and purity". They never participate in other scientific discoveries and discussions, just for love of science or journey through history of humankind with us, but only come to attack the "enemies" of Iberia, slanders of white celtic heritage, or the ones who "brown" Iberians in any way.
So how dare I call it An Agenda? lol

This is second time you mention Celts in this thread when nobody has...see how it's you who is obsessed with it ?

And why did you ban Drac now ?

[Sile]

This is second time you mention Celts in this thread when nobody has...see how it's you who is obsessed with it ?

And why did you ban Drac now ?

Is he banned? from when