Analysing Eurasian & African autosomal DNA from Lazaridis et al. 2013

Because if we take a look at the ADMIXTURe, before the Sardinians/EFF get their own component, they are split between Mesolithic HG and Bedouin :

6pj3.png






In the first link, the North-European component appears mostly as Atlantic-Baltic, and in turn, the Atlantic-Baltic appears mostly as Northern-European. In the second link there seems to be an error between the bars and the legend of colors, considering that African appears as 100% South-Asian or Southern as 100% Atlantic-Baltic. In any case, yes there is an common shared ancient ancestry between the north-euro components and the Caucasus ones.


Of course it has to do with western-mediterranean, the difference is not genetic drift, since these populations (SW Euros) have the lowest levels of the ANE ancestry of all West-Eurasia, meaning there have been different sources of hunter-gatherer ancestry as well as near-east farmer ancestry.


What iberian farmer ? There is none, In any case, yes they were most likely EEF


Yes, Wilhelm, there is indeed an Iberian farmer, from Burgos, to be precise, and from only 4,000 years ago, (2000 BC) and he's a lot like Oetzi, who is a lot like the Sardinians, but more Southern, to use the old terms, and we know the EEF numbers for Sardinians. There will surely be some differences between the genomes of the various ancient EEFs, but I doubt they'll be earthshattering. The paper should be out soon. I'm sure someone will run his genome through the new tools and models, and then we'll get the precise figures.

Oddný Ósk Sverrisdóttir et al., A late Neolithic Iberian farmer exhibits genetic affinity to Neolithic Scandinavian farmers and a Bronze Age central European farmer

The spread of farming, the neolithisation process, swept over Europe after the advent of the farming lifestyle in the near east approximately 11,000 years ago. However the mode of transmission and its impact on the demographic patterns of Europe remains largely unknown. In this study we obtained : 66,476,944 bp of genomic DNA from the remains of a 4000 year old Neolithic farmer from the site of El Portalón, 15 km east of Burgos, Spain. We compared the genomic signature of this individual to modern-day populations as well as the few Neolithic individuals that has produced large-scale autosomal data. The Neolithic Portalón individual is genetically most similar to southern Europeans, similar to a Scandinavian Neolithic farmer and the Tyrolean Iceman. In contrast, the Neolithic Portalón individual displays little affinity to two Mesolithic samples from the near-by area, La Brana, demonstrating a distinct change in population history between 7,000 and 4,000 years ago for the northern Iberian Peninsula.


http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/rec...d=diva2:665597

As to the Lazaridis et al paper, the authors know and evaluate the importance of the data in their own paper from the old Admixture tool. They then proceed to use other statistical modeling, and when they write about the amount of the H/G component in EEF, they make it quite clear that they doubt the upper bound around 30%. You linked to the supplemental material yourself, even if you didn't quote all of it, or provide the tables.

You also might want to take a look at this chart where Dienekes interpreted his components in terms of one another...North European is about 60% Atlantic Med, a sliver of Siberian, and the rest, approaching 40%, is Gedrosian. Atlantic Med is over 90% Caucasus.
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2v8isnd&s=5#.Us7_obRdDRY

Or how about this one for Atlantic-Baltic:
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2enba7s&s=5#.Us8Bs7RdDRY
Atlantic Baltic comes out as a sliver of Amerindian, close to 70% Caucasus/Gedrosia, and about 30% Southern.

There's nothing confusing about the graphs whatsoever, although I think the use of this method for ancient ancestry purposes is now rather limited.

Finally, the neolithic spread from the south-east Wilhelm. EEF is an east Mediterranean component with some western H/G added before it ever got to Iberia. Even if these farmers picked up a little more western H/G when they got there, it wouldn't effect the numbers from this paper. The EEF figures we are discussing for the modern European populations are based on the genes of this LBK woman.

You've had a good run, Wilhelm, but when someone is in a hole, the advice is usually to stop digging.

The data is what it is...and I don't understand what the problem is with accepting it.
 
This is because Sardinians have additional 25-30% H&G to their EEF
What are you talking about ?? The Stuttgart individual looks like Sardinians, there is no additional HG, where do you get that ?

. If we had a isolated farmer population in the Levant things might have looked different. Unfortunately Bedouins from Arabia are the only people who retained their farmer ancestry but (unfortunately for scientific reasons) are already admixed with a second wave of East African migrants which brought additional ~7-10% East African genes. For Gods sake how can someone be so obstinate even after so many attempts of so many Users, with considerable knowledge about genetics, to explain it.
I already know this fact, in fact it's MYSELF who has talked about this layer of african admixture ocurring AFTER the farming migrations , and that is something that is mentioned in the study...and the study attempts to address this problem by outgruping Yorubans.


Finally, the neolithic spread from the south-east Wilhelm. EEF is an east Mediterranean component with some western H/G added before it ever got to Iberia. Even if these farmers picked up a little more western H/G when they got there, it wouldn't effect the numbers from this paper. The EEF figures we are discussing for the modern European populations are based on the genes of this LBK woman.

You've had a good run, Wilhelm, but when someone is in a hole, the advice is usually to stop digging.

The data is what it is...and I don't understand what the problem is with accepting it.
Im not in any hole, but whatever, im tired of discussing with you guys, if you want to believe that European Farmers have no HG ancestry, and are pure near-easterns, that's fine, but evidence clearly proves my theory.
 
What are you talking about ?? The Stuttgart individual looks like Sardinians, there is no additional HG, where do you get that ?


I already know this fact, in fact it's MYSELF who has talked about this layer of african admixture ocurring AFTER the farming migrations , and that is something that is mentioned in the study...and the study attempts to address this problem by outgruping Yorubans.



Im not in any hole, but whatever, im tired of discussing with you guys, if you want to believe that European Farmers have no HG ancestry, and are pure near-easterns, that's fine, but evidence clearly proves my theory.

I have NEVER stated, nor do I believe that the EEF had no HG ancestry. Do NOT distort my statements.
 
I have NEVER stated, nor do I believe that the EEF had no HG ancestry. Do NOT distort my statements.
He comes back from time to time and every time it is the same story. Exaggeration, distortion and even lying as per this example. All of this with one goal in mind, to show Iberia as much European as possible, as much white as possible, as much celtic as possible. Anyone entertaining different point of view will be immediately under attack. I'm surprised only Wilhelm showed up this time from all the Celtiberians.
 
He comes back from time to time and every time it is the same story. Exaggeration, distortion and even lying as per this example. All of this with one goal in mind, to show Iberia as much European as possible, as much white as possible, as much celtic as possible. Anyone entertaining different point of view will be immediately under attack. I'm surprised only Wilhelm showed up this time from all the Celtiberians.

Maybe because the other one have finally accepted the reality. I have generally a good view on Catalans and there is allot of mutual respect between them and my people on many level (there is even a Kurdistan street in Barcelona). I will definitely not change my mind because of some disagreement in individual cases on the net. But I have to admit that allot of Iberians on such Forums have a strong obsession with Britain and phantasies of being pure bred Paleolithic people who found refugees in caves when the Ice Age came, while the rest of all Europe is mixed bred. Allot of them even dislike the "South European" classification and would be rather classified together with Atlantic French and Britains. I mean come on everyone has an small agenda but in such a delusional manner is never good.

But ironically this is only the case on the Internet. I have never came across an Iberian who had such unusual view of themselves. And I have met and seen allot of them. Allot who looked basically Iberian some who looked rather darker and some other of them I could swear who could easilly pass as French, Dutch or German. So there is indeed variety in Iberians.
 
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Maybe because the other one have finally accepted the reality. I have generally a good view on Catalans and there is allot of mutual respect between them and my people on many level (there is even a Kurdistan street in Barcelona). I will definitely not change my mind because of some disagreement in individual cases on the net. But I have to admit that allot of Iberians on such Forums have a strong obsession with Britain and phantasies of being pure bred Paleolithic people who found refugees in caves when the Ice Age came, while the rest of all Europe is mixed bred. Allot of them even dislike the "South European" classification and would be rather classified together with Atlantic French and Britains. I mean come on everyone has an small agenda but in such a delusional manner is never good.

But ironically this is only the case on the Internet. I have never came across an Iberian who had such unusual view of themselves. And I have met and seen allot of them. Allot who looked basically Iberian some who looked rather darker and some other of them I could swear who could easilly pass as French or German. So there is indeed variety in Iberians.

Catalans, of the ones I know say, its because of their view to be closer to French ( occitan) "northern europe" linguistically and culturally as in the past, than with Castilian "southern Europe" culture which is tied with the berbers. Catalan and Provencal troubadours scurried back and forth between liguria and barcelona
 
According to the old genographic project map, T split off from K in southern Iraq (Sumerian region). One branch split from there and headed from northern Saudi Arabia through Egypt all he way towards Algeria/morocco. The other branch headed from southern Iraq through turkey and towards northeastern italy passing by Slovenia, Hungary etc. I don't know how much of this to believe, but my point is, T has a center of weight near southern Iraq/ south-western Iran, south-central Iran and southeastern Iran. But the easternmost part of Iran bordering Pakistan/Afghanistan is NOT affected by T. L on the other hand, starts augmenting in frequency in easternmost Iran bordering southern Pakistan. It peaks in Pakistan and slightly lower in parts of Afghanistan, and again lower frequencies towards westernmost India.
 
Just look at maps of sister L and T on Wikipedia, you'll get an idea of their vicinity but T peaks in southern Iraq and within the confines of Iran, with a southernmost center of weight from west to east of Iran it is present. It starts to drop heavily near southeasternmost Iran, where small L frequencies begin. L peaks in Pakistan.
 
T is easternmost Middle East. L is Central Asia, truly centered on Pakistan.
 
I thought about this too, but the Mal'ta boy didn't have any Caucaso-Perso-Gedrosian, so it can't be linked to R*.
You used K=20, but on a lower K=19 run that MA1 Johny-boy has about 1/3 (of total) of Caucas-Gedrosia component. And Kalash even 3/4 of total! That dark green of Kalash is actually Caucasus-Gerosia mixed with South Asian.


xopi.jpg
jzgw.jpg
 
Maybe because the other one have finally accepted the reality.
Wow, that will be a day! I feel like celebrating already. :)
Now, let's hope that our friends on Balkans can accept each other and new reality.

. I have generally a good view on Catalans and there is allot of mutual respect between them and my people on many level (there is even a Kurdistan street in Barcelona). I will definitely not change my mind because of some disagreement in individual cases on the net.
I like Spanish culture myself, and even think about buying a house by the sea on day.
 
According to the old genographic project map, T split off from K in southern Iraq (Sumerian region). One branch split from there and headed from northern Saudi Arabia through Egypt all he way towards Algeria/morocco. The other branch headed from southern Iraq through turkey and towards northeastern italy passing by Slovenia, Hungary etc. I don't know how much of this to believe, but my point is, T has a center of weight near southern Iraq/ south-western Iran, south-central Iran and southeastern Iran. But the easternmost part of Iran bordering Pakistan/Afghanistan is NOT affected by T. L on the other hand, starts augmenting in frequency in easternmost Iran bordering southern Pakistan. It peaks in Pakistan and slightly lower in parts of Afghanistan, and again lower frequencies towards westernmost India.

recheck

T split form K in northern Iran. L split from K in south-east Iran
 
I won't be drinking ale from your skull-cup on this day.
Excellent choice of a vessel. Very animistic and primitive, deserving hg I. :17:...with a smile of R1a comrade tovarishtch.
 
North-central Iran or just northern Iran? Your telling me highest diversity and home of T is northern Iran? Why is it so rare there? L's highest diversity is southeastern Iran....deffinetly seems plausible but there must have been a movement even further east, why did T generally move westwards, wether it be Egypt, Jordan or the rare Phoenician enclaves in Europe? How did that happen? It's definite; T is most present in Europe near Mediterranean coastal regions that were colonizedby Phoenicians (Chios, west Sicily, north Corsica, Ibiza, coastal Campania region, Cadiz (southernmost Spain) but then why is T so rare in Lebanon today? If the Phoenicians had really spread it, wouldn't it be more frequent in Lebanese males? Although it is quite frequent (21%) in nearby jordanian males according to geno 2.0, so what gives? We DO know now that Omani Arabs and shirazi Persians (Shiraz is south-central Iran) brought T to the Horn of Africa and Madagascar, but what of Europe? Other than frequency peaks for T smack on every ancient Phoenician colony site, what evidence is there to corroborate this when looking at the modern genetic composition of Lebanon, for example?
 
I find interesting that one of the only T-PF7443's in geno 2.0 is a southern German fellow, and a man from La Palma, the most western of the Canary Islands of the coast of morocco/Mauritania in the Atlantic Ocean. This pretty much solidifies me to be a Phoenician or Carthaginian ancestor as this was just another "Ibiza" fort to the Phoenicians. I'm not surprised if more T1a1a3's will be discovered on the Canary Islands, Cadiz (al Gadir), Ibiza islands, northern Corsica, or western Sicily, maybe a few regions of coastal Tunisia or morocco would have them as well. Malta would also be a good place to look. I have found a rare southern Sardinian sample to be T-PF7443+ as well.
 
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Just to give you an idea, the Phoenicians of Tyre founded sites on Malta, Cadiz (southern Spain) and the entire north-west African empire of Carthage, with it's few isolated city-states. The Tartessians derived from them. They would have left multiple sites on the island of Malta, 5 or so cities on libya's Mediterranean coast, another 5 or so on the Tunisian coast, same for coastal Algeria and 3 sites on the Moroccan coas, whereas southern Spain by the north-African coast has 8 or so Phoenician colonies. Ibiza was colonized and southern Sardinia has 4 Phoenician colonies. Western Sicily had numerous Phoenician colonies as well.
 
Sardinia was a Phoenician colony for a long time and Sardinians do have a lot of the typical Levantine y-dna groups (some in small percentages), but they don't have any South-West Asian or North African component. This means even the Phoenicians did not have much South-West Asian or North-African and were mostly Neolithic Near Easterns.
RegionI2R1bG2aJ2J1E1b1bT + (L)Q
Sardinia37%22%15%10%2.5%10%1.5%2%

So the Neolithic Near Eastern y-dna now becomes: E-M78 + E-M123 , G2a, J2, J1, and some R1b. I2 would be their paleolithic HG component.

Another conclusion is that there was no Caucaso-Perso-Gedrosian in the Levant in the time of the Phoenicians. And Caucaso-Perso-Gedrosian is probably associated with R1a, which Sardinians don't have.
 
T is very rare on Sardinia though (although I heard of a T-PF7443+ from there regardless) as are most other Neolithic lineages when taken independently...J2 (10%), E3b (10%), G2a is more frequent although it and E3b were probably not brought by the Phoenicians....when taken together they account for some 30-40% of Sardinian lineages; basically the amount of I-M26 on the island. G2a seems to have been particularly successful on Sardinia and in southern italy for some reason but this isn't reflective of Greece, for example., basically European highs for the G-P15 lineage. G-M201 is found in low frequencies from Iran to the Hindu Kush mountain range tribes near Pakistan, with a probable Iranian origin.
 
In terms of geno 2.0 (haven't checked ftdna) in terms of T-PF7443+ we have four individuals to work with here. Canary Islands, Campania (Caserta) Italy, a Sardinian and a German. I'm gonna go ahead and postulate a Phoenician link. La Palma (he westernmost canary island) had heavy Phoenician/Carthaginian influence from this same men that found Cadiz and Ibiza. The Sardinian is a rare Phoenician probably too, as is my marker (don't forget T is found at 18% in Sciacca Sicily, in the exact domain were the Phoenicians settled.) Marsala, Palermo, Selinunte, Pantelleria island, Erice, Favignana island, Aegadian islands, castellamare del golfo and cefalu were all Phoenician sites. We also know of a 7-8% high on the campanian coast and several central/north italian isolated cities have high frequencies as well. Same for 1-2 isolated pockets near Bavaria. A few regions of Spain and Portugal have interesting frequencies as well, although he spaniards lean towards Phoenician colonization whereas the Portuguese T1b signals are more in line with recent Jewish influence. It is not well understood why Chios has 25% T but it could be do to passing under Persian dominion and some studies on Aegean islands + Crete have found up to 33% T.
 
He comes back from time to time and every time it is the same story. Exaggeration, distortion and even lying as per this example. All of this with one goal in mind, to show Iberia as much European as possible, as much white as possible, as much celtic as possible. Anyone entertaining different point of view will be immediately under attack. I'm surprised only Wilhelm showed up this time from all the Celtiberians.
Talk about distortion...I never talked about Celts or Celtiberians in this thread, it's you who is obsessed with it.

Maybe because the other one have finally accepted the reality.
What I said is just what the study of Lazaridis says, there is no "accepting of reality"...

Catalans, of the ones I know say, its because of their view to be closer to French ( occitan) "northern europe" linguistically and culturally as in the past, than with Castilian "southern Europe" culture which is tied with the berbers. Catalan and Provencal troubadours scurried back and forth between liguria and barcelona
This is getting off the track for some weird reason...but neither Catalan culture is "northern European" nor Castilian is "berber" culture, that's nonsense.
 

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